DA/TA/QA On Multi-hit Weaponskills

Hi. Can anyone point me in the right direction here please? Im wondering if weaponskills like Guillotine are affected in any way by DA/TA/QA. If any weaponskills are affected by it in fact. Im suspecting no... as that would presumably give you an easy chance at doubling the damage? Any advice would be appreciated, I can't find any mention of it on google.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Double_Attack

Yes, physical weaponskills can have up to 2 DA/TA/QA procs, to a max of 8 hits.

Every multihit weapon skill gets two multiattack procs max.
By convention it's believed to be the first two hit but I don't think it's ever been thoroughfully tested if it's the first 2 hits or just max two procs per WS no matter which hit.
I guess that would be hard to test technically lol.

This means that WS with a single hit get only one Multiattack proc check instead of two.
Only exception to this rule being when you're dualwielding weapons, because you get 1 Multiattack check on the MH and 1 Multiattack check on the OH.

Whatever the source I think there's still an overall max two procs per WS cap.
Also don't forget no proc will ever get you above the max attacks per attack round cap, which is fixed at 8 no matter the source (normal attacks, daken, kick attack, multiattack proc, jailer weapon proc, follow up proc etc).


Speaking of which I wonder if the follow up attack is considered a multiattack proc and falls under the max two procs per WS cap?
In a wider sense I guess it's max two multiattack procs per attack round, more than just "per WS"?

As others have mentioned, yes it can certainly proc; on the other hand, probably not in the way you may be thinking. On multi-hit WS, you have several factors. WSC, Dstat, pDIF, fTP as the general ones to look at. WSC is like your STR or DEX modifiers on weaponskills.

The first hit of a weaponskill is special. It receives a substantial accuracy boost (~100), and it also gets fTP bonus. Caveat:
However, subsequent hits are generally only affected by the WSC term... (except where fTP are transferred across all hits)

That means that depending on the WS, those subsequent hits may occur, but may not be as noticeable as you might expect.

On WS where fTP does transfer across all hits, people generally eschew the WSD outside of specific circumstances (as it only ever applies to first hit) in favor of FTP(fotia), WSC (fSTAT), and Multi-Attack.

I tested it, and there's a slight but important distinction between the multiattack check occurring:
- on every hit, stop after the second proc happens
- only on the first hits, stop whether two proc happened or not

The difference is significant, and I tested it a few months back: it's the latter. Otherwise WS with an higher number of hits would have a HUGE advantage since they would let more checks happen, which is sadly not the case. Hence why conventionally we say that "multiattack is only checked on the first two hits".

Thanks Lili.
Since you did some very deep tests about it, can you answer the following?

1) If you're using a single hit WS on a 1H weapon AND dual wielding, you get the regular "two chances" just like if you used a 2+ hits WS, correct?

2) Follow-up doesn't proc on WS if I recall, so it's probably not considered part of any WS multi hit calculations/caps, correct?

3) Irrelevant these days, but I seem to recall Jailer weapons procs were a separate thing as in you could get a THIRD proc on a WS (the jailer proc consuming the ammo), but still falling obviously under the "max 8 hits per attack round" general cap. Correct?

Thanks for quick replies. I'll be honest and say Im still puzzled. Does this mean that when building a ws set DA/TA/QA would be better than nothing but not better than a stat that directly boosts damage? Ive never used DA/TA/QA pieces in ws sets before.

"it depends".
For WS with FTP transfer properties, more often than not multiattack will be incredibly worth it.

For other WSs (especially those where you get a single multiattack proc chance) it's generally a source of small, additional damage that is welcome, but might be inferior to other options.
It depends on the WS FTP scaling, on the mods %, on the other options available for that specific slot etc.



If you make more specific questions about specific WSs maybe we can give more specific answers! xD

Turns out there's no single hit dual wield WS in my testing data :\ I didn't think of this scenario. Seeing as how the offhand hit is tacked at the end of the WS, tho, I'd assume it's the answer is "no" unless tested otherwise.

All data points to "correct".

I don't know about the third proc in a WS (tho that's not how I knew virtue stones worked), but yes, 8 hits is an absolute hard cap and the reason why Asuran Fists suck so much in 2020 and QA/TA are useless on Realmrazer.

So, Weaponskills can be divided in three big categories:
- first hit dominant
- ftp carry
- magical

We don't care about Magical for now.

First hit dominant weaponskills are both ws where there's only one hit (duh), or WS where the damage of the first hit is significantly higher than the rest. This happens via the fTP value: Savage Blade at 1000 TP has an fTP of 4, but two hits (plus an eventual offhand hit). This means that the first hit damage is multiplied by 4, but the second and the offhand hits are not. So it's 4ftp for first hit, plus 1 ftp for second, plus 1 ftp for offhand: 6 http://fTP.
If you add 50% WSD, that'll multiply only the first hit, so you'll have 6 ftp +1 +1 (8).
If you add 50% Double Attack, it'll give you a *chance* at two additional hits, making it hit for 6-8 fTP, but most often 7. So you can see how WSD is more valuable in this scenario.

Now take a WS like Resolution, where the fTP value at 2000 TP is 1.5. That's pretty weak compared to Savage Blade above, right? Except that Resolution has the fTP value apply to *all* hits of the WS, so:
- if you add 50% WSD, you get an hit for 2.25 fTP, and 4 more hits for 1.5 fTP each (a gain of 0.7)
- if you add 50% Double Attack, you get 5-7 hits, with an average of 7, and those additional hits add 1.5 fTP worth of damage each, so a gain of 0-3 fTP worth of damage, but generally 1.5. If you add QA and TA to the mix then you increase your chances of getting the full 8 hit for 1.5 fTP, which is a lot of pain inflicted on the mob.

Then there's cases like Upheaval, which has 1 fTP at 1k TP, making Double Attack the better option at that value, but then gets 3 fTP at 2k TP, making WSD the best option instead; or Resolution on RUN with Lionheart, where due to TP bonus and Temper, WSD becomes more useful instead. It can get complicated, and mathy.

Adding to what Sechs wrote, it's often a matter of "what other options do I have?". If you really don't have better options for that slot, just add whatever increases damage, even if slightly. Sometimes that's WSD on fTP carrying WSs, sometimes that's Multiattack on a ws like Savage Blade, just because you don't have other option (whether because you don't have that gear yet, or because it doesn't exist at all).

Then there's cases like Asuran Fists or DW Realmrazer, which are both many hits and ftp carry, two characteristics which usually call for multiattack, but multiattack is utterly useless for those WS because they're already at maximum number of hits no matter what.

Most people seem to assume the other way around.
Isn't the offhand hit treated the same way the 2nd hit of a WS would be if that WS were 2+ hits?
I thought offhand hit inherited FTP properties too on WSs with FTP transfer.

OK great thanks. I think Im starting to understand ( a bit more at least lol). So I need to find out the ftp for the weapon skill Im using then add 1 for each 50% of WSD or DA up to a maximum of 8?

Why did you use 2000tp for resolution? Is that because 1000tp would be less than 1 hit or something?

Its mainly Spiral Hell, Entropy and Cross Reaper on drk, CDC and Savage on Blu, CDC, Atonement and Savage on pld, those are what Im using most regularly.

That was more of an approximation/example to give you a rough idea of the "weight" a stat like WSD has in different situations, on different WSs.

tl;dr
WSD is gonna have a bigger impact on the final WS damage for WS with high FTP, no FTP carry and low number of hits.
Multiattack is gonna have a bigger impact on the final WS damage for WS with at least 2 hits and FTP carry.

And viceversa.
There are exeptions and Lili gave you a few, but in general it's sorta like this.




Edit:
Given you offered some specific WS, hopefully someone will post further insight on the DRK ones, but for Savage Blade you want to stack a lot of WSD. Then STR (or MND) and attack too if you're not att-capped.
Savage Blade is a 2 hit WS (plus the OH hit) with a high FTP mod scaling with TP values that only affects the first hit.
If your question is "for the Body slot, will this 5% WSD piece be better than this other piece with a lot of STR?" or "Will this 12 MND piece be better than this 9 STR piece?".
It sorta depends on the values, to have exact calculations you would need a spreadsheet. My point is: just because one stat (WSD for instance) is better than another (MND for instance) doesn't mean that pieces with WSD are always gonna win against pieces with high MND.
You also have to take the values into account.
Like a piece with a *** of MND is likely gonna win over a piece with only 2% WSD.
Savage Blade in particular has equal mods for both MND and STR (50%), meaning in theory they should have the same weight and 10STR should be equal to 10MND, but in reality STR is slightly better because of STR tiers and because of the fact that STR converts into attack.
So again: it depends.
Between WSD and Multiattack though it should be an easy choice. For Savage Blade consider Multiattack the stat to go for a specific slot only when you don't have anything better or the other options all have very low values.

For CDC things are different.
It's a high value (80%) single mod (DEX) WS that can crit, it has multiple hits (3 + 1 OH) and has FTP carry properties.
This means that, to simplify things, each hit subsequent to the first (multiattack hits included) will be as strong as the first hit.
Basically never use WSD for this WS unless WSD is the icing on the cake on a piece that has very good overall stats for CDC.
You want Multiattack, Crit Rate, Crit Damage, lotsa DEX.
If att uncapped, attack is still gonna matter but it's less important for CDC compared to CDC because of the way Crits interact with pDif.

Some slots it's easy to say which piece is gonna win among the ones you have, in other slots it's pretty hard unless you run a simulator and/or a spreadsheet.

I warmly suggest you start using spreadsheet and see things for yourself :-P

That's great, really helpful thankyou. I've started to write a few things down here, please have a read and see if I have completely missed it - sorry to be a pest. I may be on the verge of a breakthrough though ;;

I haven't added any acc (apart from fotia stuff) or WSD+ pieces as I wasn't sure where they come in in the calculation (perhaps just after the first total?).

Also, I noticed that the site I read had added accuracy bonuses. Does normal accuracy from gear/food need to be added too in order to get a more reliable final number, and if so how much damage is 1 acc worth? He has added 110 damage from acc bonus for the first hit and an extra 10 damage for each of the following hits.

I added the paragraph from the site I followed below my own calculation which is based on my current Savage Blade set.

Savage Blade 1000tp
Ftp 4.1
STR: 50% MND 50%

Current set (BLU/NIN)

Naegling: 190.9 (including 15% Savage Blade bonus)
50%Str = 84
50%Mnd = 61
Total = 335.9

1st hit = 335.9 x 4.1 (Ftp) = 1377.19
1377.19 + 110 (acc bonus?) = 1487.19

3 hits if DA procs = (335.9 + 10{for additional hits})x3= 1037.7

2 hits if DA doesn’t proc = (335.9 + 10) x 2 = 691.8

Total Damage with DA: 1487.19 + 1037.7 = 2524.89
Total Damage without DA: 1487.19 + 691.8 = 2178.99

Here is where I got the info:

"The elemental gorgets and belts work by adding 10 Accuracy to ALL hits of a weapon skill, and 0.1 fTP to the first hit.

So, let's say our character is dual wielding 100 damage swords, has 150 STR, 100 MND, and an elemental gorget on. We use Savage Blade. First off, our base damage gets boosted by 50% STR and 50% MND, making us go from 100 to 225. Our first hit gets a 110 Accuracy boost, and a 4.1x fTP multiplier, landing for 922 damage. We hit an additional 3 times - once because Savage Blade hits twice, once with our offhand weapon, and once because Double Attack triggered. All of these hits get a 10 Accuracy bonus, and all 3 of them connect for 225 damage each. That brings our total damage to 1597."

I'm not really sure what you're talking about... a website that performs FFXI-related calculations?
I feel a bit lost D:

If you're talking about spreadsheet, (for instance the old but still useable BLU spreadsheet you can find here) then everything is automatic, you just need to pick the target, the buffs, the gear.
If it's a spreadsheet that hasn't been mantained for a while you would have to add new gear yourself in the "gear lists" sheet.

As far as your accuracy question.
Accuracy is worth a lot.
Back in the 75 era were "haste is the most powerful stat ever!" Acc was the only stat that was potentially more powerful (i.e. gave more damage contribution per point) than Haste.
I think this still stands.
If you're a considerable margin underneath the acc cap, then each point of accuracy is gonna produce truly noticeable DPS increases, perhaps THE most noticeable.
Most players build their multiple sets around this logic, often having a set for low acc needs (where you can play more with other dps-related stats) and at least another for high-acc scenario, where you focus on Accuracy while trying to balance out the other stats.

If you ask me, but that's just my humble opinion, you should balance your sets approximately this way:
1) Make sure the accuracy in your WS is more or less in line with the accuracy value of your related TP set. If you have multiple TP sets (low acc, high acc) then do the same for your WS sets
2) When calculating "which piece is better on this slot for this WS?" assume accuracy is gonna be capped and play with all the other stats.

In the spreadsheet you can do this by adding a lot of Acc-related buffs, or you can do it manually by adding a huge acc amount (like, dunno, +1000), in the "custom" line under the "Acc" column, in the gear sheet (for both TP and WS sets)

waaaaaat, but why /NIN °-°


Yes, except for WS which have "FTP carry" property. In that case the 0.1 ftp (which becomes 0.2 if you use both neck and belt) applies to ALL subsequent hits, be them built-in with the WS or multihit proc.
Just like Lili tried to explain to you in her last post.

prety sure its already been stated but as a general rule of thumb if

is shown, then you want towards MA as each hit of the WS+off-hand will replicate ftp, which is huge, while ones that dont typically you favor WSD. Theres various other factors such as stat mods, acc/atk, etc. Exceptions being multi-hit ws such as guillotine or below 2k TP insurgency which have super low ftp(below 1.0) that dont transfer, you're better off gearing towards MA for these.

offhand hit is the second hit and single hit ws will trigger a proc on offhand in this situation. hit order is like this:

main hand > offhand > natural additional hits with mainhand > mainhand MA procs > offhand MA procs. jailer weapons and follow up from raetic / path B do not apply to WS. reaching 8 hits will prevent the remaining from happening, but do not prevent procs that allow 8+. example, if you have a 2 hit ws and DW, getting two QA procs will still reach 8, you are not prevented from getting a QA proc just because it would go above 8 hits.

You sure about Jailer weapons Austar? Not that it matters these days, but I seemed to recall they could proc on WS.

Also if I understood correctly you're saying that if you're, say, at 6 hits and a QA procs, it won't go off because it would bring the number of hits to 9 which is above the 8 cap, which means you'll be left at 6 hits as if the QA didn't proc at all.
I thought in such a situation that the QA would've gone off the same, but granting just +2 hits instead of +3.
When/where was this tested?

i've never seen any testing or reliable reports that jailer weapons do work on ws and never recall it happening myself.

and i'm saying if you are at 6 and hit a QA, you will get 8 hits. it won't prevent a QA from happening. i tested it in the thf or dnc thread somewhere

edit: https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/53301/february-2019-version-update/7#3409558

Would you mind explaining this in more detail? Earlier you stated Resolution on RUN should focus MA at 2000TP so why would that change with Lionheart? You would just TP at 1250TP since both scenarios would have Temper not just the Lionheart user.

So, either you would use WSD in either scenario because of the Temper DA or you would use MA in either scenario even with the DA bonus. I am leaning for MA in either scenario since most WS gear will have TA which, along with Temper, would increase your chance of MA which, in turn, would increasing your average fTP (more hits avg).

They're presumably saying that Resolutions fTP (2.2625-2.45 at 2750+ effective TP) and multi attack via Temper will be high enough that more multi attack will be outperformed, on average, by weaponskill damage.

I can see why you would hold TP to 2000 as it doubles fTP but fTP doesn’t double from 2-3k so why would you not WS at 1250 with Lionheart?

You would, lol. Arguably if your TP set is putting you above 1100 TP or so I wouldn't even be waiting for 1250 (at least with Lionheart).

fTP accumulation are usually some linear function. In the case of Resolution it is quite linear. It's not like there's a shelf where damage suddenly increases above a certain TP value. Because of this linear nature, when you have TP Bonus in any amount, but especially in significant amount, it is usually a damage loss to hold on to TP.

Notable exceptions could be... weaponskills with very weird fTP anchor points and holding TP to close a skillchain for greater overall damage.

Single-hit ws like Fudo do not multi-attack correct?

They can but it can only proc once.