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Corona Virus, How has it affected your area so far?
By Afania 2020-03-31 10:11:38
I meant to cover China / Hong Kong / Taiwan,
Decided to google about this real quick.
Afaik, while it is possible to check medical history of a patient via a cloud based system, it's meant to be used for convenience's sake because there are no such thing as family doctors like NA. So patients doctor shopping quite frequently, and each time a patient visited a new doctor, it's easier for them to know exactly what's going on if they have a patients medical history.
I did a quick search on google and it seems that patients need to sign a consent before a doctor can upload the patients medical history. Does that violate human right?
The only human right related concern that I've read is location track system in HK/TW. Which is for people under quarantine. And even then that's not worse than letting Facebook, Google or FBI collect your data, which they do all the time.
I certainly haven't heard anything about forced quarantine from buying cough medicine, it sounds a little ridiculous.
By Afania 2020-03-31 10:15:27
Bahamut.Celebrindal said: »The entire reason why Asian countries did a much better job than NA against this viruses is because their government actually encourage people wear masks, not the other way around.
The issue I have with this is, I don't believe a ***' thing most Asian governments release to the rest of the world concerning issues within their own countries. Some of the most ethnocentric societies on the planet are Asian and they would not for one second be above lying about something like this to protect their country's, "honor."
I mean wow, China has already actually tried to blame the US military for covid-19 even though it clearly came from China. Now they say they have NO new cases coming from inland China? Complete and utter ***.
That's because China has an authoritarian government so they can do whatever they want.
Some Asian countries are democracy, it's much harder to "lie" about the numbers because people will demand transparency. That's how democracy works. People will place transparency above "honor".
"ethnocentric people" exists in every society, including NA. For example I would call Quebec even more ethnocentric than most Asian countries. But even then I trust the numbers from Quebec government. I also trust numbers from South Korea and Taiwan just as much.
Until there is a uniform % of testing done across countries the numbers are irrelevant. If China is testing 10% of its population and Great Britain is testing 40%, its unfair to say that China is doing a better job at containing the spread. If two countries are both testing 50% of their population but one has 500 million and one has 40 million, you can't say the 2nd country is "doing better".
The biggest lesson I've learned from all of this is how bad the average American is at math. I'm not directing this to ANYONE in this thread- its mostly at leadership, media, and other loudmouths who get the largest audience with the least reason for it.
1. Complete lack of understanding of the differences between Additive, Multiplicative, or Exponential growth.
2. Complete ignorance on comparative data and how to rightfully compare two data sets vs a 2nd grader counting two stacks of oranges and saying which is bigger.
I know some will see why I write here along with quoted posts above and think this is directed at them. It isn't. I quoted because I do completely agree that there isn't a single damn country in the world that I trust when it comes to numbers related to this. Either hiding numbers, or hiding poor response that leads to poor numbers- the reason doesn't matter but there's no uniformity between what's being released.
Sure, you can argue that numbers aren't 100% accurate because it's impossible to test everyone. But that's different case from what Prong said about "lying for honor".
I just don't see how honor can be on higher priority than transparency in democracy countries.
 Bismarck.Laurelli
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 889
By Bismarck.Laurelli 2020-03-31 10:21:12
Have you seen the drive through tests in the US, Europe or UK yet?
nope?
China and South Korea and even the middle east are doing a better job. There's drive-thru testing in Montreal
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By Foxfire 2020-03-31 10:29:16
is there a tl;dr to the tl;dw
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By Afania 2020-03-31 10:37:49
If you want pandemics to be dealt with like asian countries ... you'll have to abandon some of your rights and privacy.
I'm not completely against it, but governments will have full access to every piece of information about you. They can check things like your medical history or even if you purchased things like cough medicine with your credit/debit card and force you into quarantine. They also enforce penalties if you do not respect the rules, which can be fines or jail.
They have access to more information and they act very swiftly and enforce their rules. If masks are part of the equation, it's not significant compared to everything else.
Wow, people in Canada are that much of a push over? No, I'd never like to be in a country like China, thanks.
Since he quoted me, just let me clarify. I said Asia, not China. China doesn't represent entire Asia.
If you want to discuss Asia human right, it's easier with some kind of data, for example something like this:
https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores
United States has total freedom score of 86. Japan has 96, Taiwan has 93, China has 10. Appearantly some Asian countries are more "free" than the US.
Not all Asian countries are "China". You don't need to be "like China" to be successful at dealing with this virus. No excuses for doing a bad job!
Bismarck.Laurelli
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 889
By Bismarck.Laurelli 2020-03-31 10:51:04
If you want pandemics to be dealt with like asian countries ... you'll have to abandon some of your rights and privacy.
I'm not completely against it, but governments will have full access to every piece of information about you. They can check things like your medical history or even if you purchased things like cough medicine with your credit/debit card and force you into quarantine. They also enforce penalties if you do not respect the rules, which can be fines or jail.
They have access to more information and they act very swiftly and enforce their rules. If masks are part of the equation, it's not significant compared to everything else.
Wow, people in Canada are that much of a push over? No, I'd never like to be in a country like China, thanks.
Since he quoted me, just let me clarify. I said Asia, not China. China doesn't represent entire Asia.
If you want to discuss Asia human right, it's easier with some kind of data, for example something like this:
https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores
United States has total freedom score of 86. Japan has 96, Taiwan has 93, China has 10. Appearantly some Asian countries are more "free" than the US.
Not all Asian countries are "China". You don't need to be "like China" to be successful at dealing with this virus. No excuses for doing a bad job! Wow, according to that site, Canada has 12 more freedom tokens than the US. So much for Canadians being pushovers.
[+]
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1782
By Bahamut.Celebrindal 2020-03-31 12:03:24
oh those were just numbers for the sake of comparison, not actual numbers. As I said, I really don't think ANY nation can give accurate numbers regarding testing, not to mention the various levels of accuracy of the 5 minute "drive thru" style tests vs more accurate, but longer processing, tests.
Sorry if misleading and people thought I was giving real data. It was only to give some reference to how we're currently comparing things.
By Afania 2020-03-31 12:07:49
The entire reason why Asian countries did a much better job than NA against this viruses is because their government actually encourage people wear masks, not the other way around.
The issue I have with this is, I don't believe a ***' thing most Asian governments release to the rest of the world concerning issues within their own countries. Some of the most ethnocentric societies on the planet are Asian and they would not for one second be above lying about something like this to protect their country's, "honor."
I mean wow, China has already actually tried to blame the US military for covid-19 even though it clearly came from China. Now they say they have NO new cases coming from inland China? Complete and utter ***.
Found another data more relevant to government transparency.
https://www.transparency.org/cpi2019
Singapore #4, Hong Kong #16, Japan #20, US#23, China #80
I just can't find any data nor relevant info suggesting what you said are true.
By Afania 2020-03-31 12:17:48
Bismarck.Laurelli said: »If you want pandemics to be dealt with like asian countries ... you'll have to abandon some of your rights and privacy.
I'm not completely against it, but governments will have full access to every piece of information about you. They can check things like your medical history or even if you purchased things like cough medicine with your credit/debit card and force you into quarantine. They also enforce penalties if you do not respect the rules, which can be fines or jail.
They have access to more information and they act very swiftly and enforce their rules. If masks are part of the equation, it's not significant compared to everything else.
Wow, people in Canada are that much of a push over? No, I'd never like to be in a country like China, thanks.
Since he quoted me, just let me clarify. I said Asia, not China. China doesn't represent entire Asia.
If you want to discuss Asia human right, it's easier with some kind of data, for example something like this:
https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores
United States has total freedom score of 86. Japan has 96, Taiwan has 93, China has 10. Appearantly some Asian countries are more "free" than the US.
Not all Asian countries are "China". You don't need to be "like China" to be successful at dealing with this virus. No excuses for doing a bad job! Wow, according to that site, Canada has 12 more freedom tokens than the US. So much for Canadians being pushovers.
92% of Canadian said they’d agree if governments authorized police to fine such people as some jurisdictions have begun doing; 82% would agree to police arresting those who disrespect the measures.
https://montrealgazette.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/most-abiding-by-covid-19-rules-back-fines-arrests-of-those-who-arent-poll/wcm/d52e3827-ff06-4f9e-96de-a57377bdf580/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0lNsoZOh3dDZ84FsJ6WLflfdyRmmOb3UIopQEYQRqB-C6ZYxSL2LZ50E4#Echobox=1585664009
Be ready for incoming freedom point drop ;)
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 1782
By Bahamut.Celebrindal 2020-03-31 12:21:39
There are ways to preserve long-term liberty while performing necessary short-term measures. The biggest problem I have is the inability to trust those in charge to truly look at measures implemented as a short-term necessity vs a chance to change paradigms.
Never waste a good crisis and all.
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Bismarck.Laurelli
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 889
By Bismarck.Laurelli 2020-03-31 12:35:36
Bismarck.Laurelli said: »If you want pandemics to be dealt with like asian countries ... you'll have to abandon some of your rights and privacy.
I'm not completely against it, but governments will have full access to every piece of information about you. They can check things like your medical history or even if you purchased things like cough medicine with your credit/debit card and force you into quarantine. They also enforce penalties if you do not respect the rules, which can be fines or jail.
They have access to more information and they act very swiftly and enforce their rules. If masks are part of the equation, it's not significant compared to everything else.
Wow, people in Canada are that much of a push over? No, I'd never like to be in a country like China, thanks.
Since he quoted me, just let me clarify. I said Asia, not China. China doesn't represent entire Asia.
If you want to discuss Asia human right, it's easier with some kind of data, for example something like this:
https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores
United States has total freedom score of 86. Japan has 96, Taiwan has 93, China has 10. Appearantly some Asian countries are more "free" than the US.
Not all Asian countries are "China". You don't need to be "like China" to be successful at dealing with this virus. No excuses for doing a bad job! Wow, according to that site, Canada has 12 more freedom tokens than the US. So much for Canadians being pushovers.
92% of Canadian said they’d agree if governments authorized police to fine such people as some jurisdictions have begun doing; 82% would agree to police arresting those who disrespect the measures.
https://montrealgazette.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/most-abiding-by-covid-19-rules-back-fines-arrests-of-those-who-arent-poll/wcm/d52e3827-ff06-4f9e-96de-a57377bdf580/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0lNsoZOh3dDZ84FsJ6WLflfdyRmmOb3UIopQEYQRqB-C6ZYxSL2LZ50E4#Echobox=1585664009
Be ready for incoming freedom point drop ;) It already started. Apparently, if you break quarantine, it's a $750 fine and/or 6 months in prison. And if you break quarantine and actually spread it, it's $1M fine, 3 years. But that's for people coming back from outside Canada and not isolating. Probably a preventitive measure since the snowbirds are coming back and that group of people are generally too selfish to follow the rules.
By volkom 2020-03-31 12:57:15
Bahamut.Celebrindal said: »There are ways to preserve long-term liberty while performing necessary short-term measures. The biggest problem I have is the inability to trust those in charge to truly look at measures implemented as a short-term necessity vs a chance to change paradigms.
Never waste a good crisis and all.
like the romans when they elect a dictator during a time of war until sulla and caesar :|
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1782
By Bahamut.Celebrindal 2020-03-31 13:04:01
Bahamut.Celebrindal said: »There are ways to preserve long-term liberty while performing necessary short-term measures. The biggest problem I have is the inability to trust those in charge to truly look at measures implemented as a short-term necessity vs a chance to change paradigms.
Never waste a good crisis and all.
like the romans when they elect a dictator during a time of war until sulla and caesar :|
incredibly accurate. Thankfully we have the gift of hindsight to hopefully prevent such things from happening again (in most places). Sunset laws are the easiest way to approach such things, but more than anything its about how vocal WE are regarding measures passed during a crisis.
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4415
By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2020-03-31 13:27:02
Have you seen the drive through tests in the US, Europe or UK yet?
nope?
China and South Korea and even the middle east are doing a better job. It's not doing a better job, it's doing a different one.
US, EU and UK have no interest in doing such tests. It goes against their plans, it makes no sense.
This is why we don't have them.
Don't immediately blame people for being incompetent, more often than not they are willingly not doing things in order to benefit themselves.
If you want an example of what I'm talking about, document yourself about this *** named Agnès Buzyn, she's a very good example of why these people aren't incompetent but actually simply have very bad intentions.
I'm pretty sure we can make parallels with people in other countries (maybe Trump? I'm not sure, I haven't paid 100% attention to what he's been doing or saying).
These people have been in the know for Covid 19 ever since October 2019 at the very least and took the steps necessary to protect and boost their wealth at the latest in January (that was the last safe month). You can't for one second believe that they are incompetent, they very well know what they are doing and what they aren't doing. There is a purpose.
By Prong 2020-03-31 13:30:02
Bahamut.Celebrindal said: »The entire reason why Asian countries did a much better job than NA against this viruses is because their government actually encourage people wear masks, not the other way around.
The issue I have with this is, I don't believe a ***' thing most Asian governments release to the rest of the world concerning issues within their own countries. Some of the most ethnocentric societies on the planet are Asian and they would not for one second be above lying about something like this to protect their country's, "honor."
I mean wow, China has already actually tried to blame the US military for covid-19 even though it clearly came from China. Now they say they have NO new cases coming from inland China? Complete and utter ***.
That's because China has an authoritarian government so they can do whatever they want.
Some Asian countries are democracy, it's much harder to "lie" about the numbers because people will demand transparency. That's how democracy works. People will place transparency above "honor".
"ethnocentric people" exists in every society, including NA. For example I would call Quebec even more ethnocentric than most Asian countries. But even then I trust the numbers from Quebec government. I also trust numbers from South Korea and Taiwan just as much.
Until there is a uniform % of testing done across countries the numbers are irrelevant. If China is testing 10% of its population and Great Britain is testing 40%, its unfair to say that China is doing a better job at containing the spread. If two countries are both testing 50% of their population but one has 500 million and one has 40 million, you can't say the 2nd country is "doing better".
The biggest lesson I've learned from all of this is how bad the average American is at math. I'm not directing this to ANYONE in this thread- its mostly at leadership, media, and other loudmouths who get the largest audience with the least reason for it.
1. Complete lack of understanding of the differences between Additive, Multiplicative, or Exponential growth.
2. Complete ignorance on comparative data and how to rightfully compare two data sets vs a 2nd grader counting two stacks of oranges and saying which is bigger.
I know some will see why I write here along with quoted posts above and think this is directed at them. It isn't. I quoted because I do completely agree that there isn't a single damn country in the world that I trust when it comes to numbers related to this. Either hiding numbers, or hiding poor response that leads to poor numbers- the reason doesn't matter but there's no uniformity between what's being released.
Sure, you can argue that numbers aren't 100% accurate because it's impossible to test everyone. But that's different case from what Prong said about "lying for honor".
I just don't see how honor can be on higher priority than transparency in democracy countries.
Last time I respond because clearly people get upset when people not from their region/country/ethnicity make statements, true or not, about others, and I get that, but since everyone from outside of the US loooovves to do it about "NA", here goes: Asian cultures are historically ethnocentric. I personally am fascinated with Japanese history and culture, have studied it my entire life. I watch more Korean TV shows and Japanese anime than I do English speaking TV. I have NOTHING personally against Asian cultures.
But to say it's ridiculous to perhaps take into account the fact MOST Asian countries have a long history of not divulging all information to the world when that information makes them look bad (i.e. hurts their honor) is absurd in and of itself. You can Google and Bing and Yahoo all the info you want to make your argument on here, but when that info is coming from governments that have a long history of not telling the truth about such things, it makes your info questionable at best.
But the REAL thing that is glaring to me is, who is the complete a~hole who even started this, "well, X countries are doing it better than Y countries/region" conversation in the first place? We have possibly a global pandemic going on that ignores race, gender, nation, income and age (king of), and you morons are here once again finding something to argue about, taking your usual shots at "NA." Go play another game or something and STFU.
By Afania 2020-03-31 13:47:03
Last time I respond because clearly people get upset when people not from their region/country/ethnicity make statements, true or not, about others, and I get that, but since everyone from outside of the US loooovves to do it about "NA", here goes: Asian cultures are historically ethnocentric. I personally am fascinated with Japanese history and culture, have studied it my entire life. I watch more Korean TV shows and Japanese anime than I do English speaking TV. I have NOTHING personally against Asian cultures.
But to say it's ridiculous to perhaps take into account the fact MOST Asian countries have a long history of not divulging all information to the world when that information makes them look bad (i.e. hurts their honor) is absurd in and of itself. You can Google and Bing and Yahoo all the info you want to make your argument on here, but when that info is coming from governments that have a long history of not telling the truth about such things, it makes your info questionable at best.
Like what? Give us some examples of an Asian democracy country lying about their numbers -.- don't just randomly claim "governments are lying because I know about their cultures from books/anime" then expect everyone else to believe that.
You assume people care about "honors" enough to corrupt a government. This is actually giving human beings more credits than
they deserve, lol. IF Asian governments are corrupted/not transparent enough, it's probably about money and greed, not about some far fetched "honor", lol.
But the REAL thing that is glaring to me is, who is the complete a~hole who even started this, "well, X countries are doing it better than Y countries/region" conversation in the first place? We have possibly a global pandemic going on that ignores race, gender, nation, income and age (king of), and you morons are here once again finding something to argue about, taking your usual shots at "NA." Go play another game or something and STFU.
You misunderstood then. The entire reason why we are here saying NA governments(both) weren't doing enough is because we have seen certain strategy worked in other countries, that NA governments (both) refuse to do. Its not like we hate or dislike certain race/people/culture in NA.
For example, I 100% disagree with CDCs "face masks are useless" claim. Reading all the misinformation about it on the internet made the situation worse. And we can't even call our government out for being wrong? Where's the freedom of speech? Surely we deserve them as tax payers when our health/career are at risk.
Our cases are increasing every day and it's time to learn from countries that did a better job preventing it and use their strategies, not getting pissed off the moment "Asia" were mentioned. Saying their numbers are incorrect then proceed to shut down any possible means to slow down the spread isn't helping anyone.
Edit: Also gonna mention, more and more EU countries are copying Asia's face masks strategy because it's just that effective, for example
Austria
http://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/austria-supermarket-face-mask/
Germany
theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/31/calls-grow-for-germany-wide-use-of-face-masks-covid-19
So it's not just Asia are doing this.
While NA governments (both) still refuse to admit they were wrong about face masks, lame.
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By Afania 2020-03-31 16:15:36
Masks really aren't the answer, it's way too simplistic to think they are. I could list a lot of variables as to why one nation has lower numbers and another has more, also why one nation has evened out sooner.
There are so many variables at play that it's impossible to judge nation to nation.
To give an example,
New York has 76k cases and 1.5k deaths (population of 19 million)
California has 7k cases and 149 death (population of 40 million)
Masks did not make California or any other US state have significantly less cases or deaths.
No, the purpose of masks is to slow down the spread once community transmission starts. As all the scientific posts shows that it does offer protection against transmission.
If community transmission never start in an area of course it's useless.
https://www.wired.com/story/its-time-to-face-facts-america-masks-work/
Also found another post from India claiming it's effective.
https://www.deccanherald.com/national/coronavirus-govts-scientific-advisor-issues-manual-for-homemade-masks-says-they-are-70-effective-against-covid-19-819650.html
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Leviathan.Andret
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1008
By Leviathan.Andret 2020-03-31 16:57:27
The main issue is that many Asian nations already had massive hundreds of millions of supplies of masks due to smog issues (stores were full of them), western nations did not have this mass of supplies ready and waiting.
All in all, masks are the 2nd best solution to the lock-down anyway really (cause they give people a false sense of security). I do agree that making masks available in supermarkets would of been good but the issue again is there was not enough supply and the supply that was available were deemed to be needed most by the medical people.
Now that some western companies are making them that might happen.
The main benefit of masks are not to stop you getting sick, it's to stop sick people infecting others. Since they stop the saliva droplets when people talk or cough.
There is a reason why health professionals don't recommend masks. It might help but again, it might not, depending on how wide spread the usage is.
If you are sick and you have coughing symptoms the ln you should stay home. If you are sick and you don't have any symptoms then you're probably going to infect people with your hands than directly from your month anyways.
For example, people usually think it would stop people who are sick from releasing the virus to other people. However, it doesn't stop people from touching their mouths/face (in private) or contaminated surfaces then spread it around. So you still need more than regular hand washing, don't touch your face and sanitize surfaces that you come into contact with.
So best case would be that it would reduce the need to regularly clean the surface if not many people touch it.
By Afania 2020-03-31 17:01:40
The main issue is that many Asian nations already had massive hundreds of millions of supplies of masks due to smog issues (stores were full of them), western nations did not have this mass of supplies ready and waiting.
The solution? Increase the mask production and secure the supply early. It should be done in Jan/Feb but nope, nobody did anything.
In fact Ontario had to destory millions of expired n95s because they didn't knew it was expired.....in March. (Again... should be done in Jan/Feb)
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2020/03/25/province-stockpiled-55-million-face-masks-then-destroyed-them.html
Its embarassing. Our government did such a poor job fighting this war and people on the internet trying really hard looking for excuses.
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By Afania 2020-03-31 17:09:20
If you are sick and you have coughing symptoms the ln you should stay home.
Obviously that's not working. I see people coughing on the street all the time, they would just think "it's cold" then go out anyways.
It makes more sense to promote face masks but it makes 0 sense to rely on people being honest and stay home when they are sick. They just won't do it.
By the way, study shows that 75% of returning travellers still go out and never quarantine. There were 1 million people returning to the country since last week. That's 750k people in the community spreading disease without face masks on.
torontosun.com/news/national/75-of-travellers-returing-to-canada-have-visited-a-grocery-story-bypassing-mandatory-quarantine/amp
So yup, we ***.
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 Asura.Eiryl
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
By Asura.Eiryl 2020-03-31 17:33:32
The idiot in chief just said use a scarf as a mask. we are so ***.
By Viciouss 2020-03-31 17:36:41
The idiot in chief just said use a scarf as a mask. we are so ***.
There is no bottom.
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By Prong 2020-03-31 17:40:49
Like what? Give us some examples of an Asian democracy country lying about their numbers -.- don't just randomly claim "governments are lying because I know about their cultures from books/anime" then expect everyone else to believe that.
I'm not getting goaded into doing your research for you. I'm 47 years old so I've been on this planet long enough and been exposed to enough information (such as you all) to know Asian countries tend to hide truths about their country to others...and no, I didn't learn this from anime. I simply used that as an example to show I have no ill will or bias against the Asian culture. And yes, the Japanese culture in particular still to this day holds a strong attachment to "honor" whether you like that choice of words or not. And it's not always a bad thing, IMO, to hold honor in high regard.
From animal and human abuses to state run media, if you are in some kind of denial that region of the world isn't big on sharing info, that's on you. Stay in denial. If you want one example, China tried to blame the US military for releasing the virus from their posts in South Korea. Then, they now claim there are NO new cases of covid-19 originating from the Chinese mainland. Even you have to realize that has to be a lie. Virus originates there, they first blame snakes, then experts find there is a state run biotech agency that creates viruses for testing IN Wuhan...then China says the US made it....c'mon. Keep defending though.
So, today was the first case of the virus being confirmed in my rural county.
This last week has been pretty insane to start. Most grocery stores have been emptied, toilet paper is non existent. Bars, hotels, and casinos have been shutdown as of yesterday, our town relies heavily on these sources of income. There are now rumors that our mine sites will soon be shutdown as well. I plan to withdraw a substantial amount of cash from the bank tomorrow morning, and hit every store I can get my hands on to get some groceries before the hoarding gets any worse.
I have heard of California being on total lockdown, as well of rumors of people even being imprisoned for attempting to leave the state.
Curious to hear how other parts of the country are getting along, surprised there isn't an official Corona-Virus thread here yet.
Crazy stuff.
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