Amano Vs Masa (Final Augment)

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Amano vs Masa (Final augment)
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 Asura.Arthuruss
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By Asura.Arthuruss 2019-11-03 00:48:58
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Hello everyone! I try to make some sense of something:
Could it be possible that SE made Amano on par with Masa if we WS at ideal conditions so every 1000TP

I'm not good on math but here it goes:

I used those numbers:
White damages = 15% of total damage.
Weapon skills = 85% of total damage.

After Final augment:

Amano: Dmg 326
+ 27% Tachi Kaiten damage (Since it's multiplicative)
SC damage + 5%.
+60 Accuracy
+10 Stp

Masamune: Dmg 319
+70 STR = 7-8 weapon damage
+ 10% Tachi Fudo.
50% triple white damage


TP phase = a
WS phase = b
Total damage = c = a + b

Kaiten = a + 1.27b = c
a (0.15) + b (1.27×0.85) = c
a 0.15 + b 1.08 = c 1.23

Masa = 1.50a + 1.10b = c
a (1.5x0.15) + b(1.1×0.85) = c
a 0.23 + b 0.93 = c 1.16


I'm probaly mistaken in many places, but is it still true that Masa is totally better than Amano with the final upgrade, considering the higher weapon damage of Amano?

What's your RL experience?

Thank you!

Btw, dont just say that my math sucks, i know ; P !!
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By Asura.Nightmarelord 2019-11-03 04:14:06
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With the way AM3 functions on masa, theres no real way for amano to compete.

you cant really influence kaitens damage the way you can fudo.

kinda why koga is a glorified toy. masa allows you to straight up destroy stuff with cookie cutter builds.

Amano in the end gets outshined by others because they can do what it does better in a sense imo.

I could be wrong. I shelved my sam bc literally everyone has a sam.
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By SimonSes 2019-11-03 04:39:07
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Lol are you familiar with things like WS modifiers, fTP, tp overflow etc.? You math is missing almost everything thats important. You probably should start with reading SAM main thread.
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By Taint 2019-11-03 07:24:48
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It’s hard enough to WS at 2k on SAM while buffed, 1000 is near impossible.
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 Asura.Arthuruss
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By Asura.Arthuruss 2019-11-03 10:04:19
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SimonSes: Please dont be mean. You are absolutely right, i didnt put everything like you said because I used the assumption that 1000 TP Fudo = 1000 TP Kaiten for damage. From the numbers i get, they seem really close and after many research on this forum, many SAM said the same thing.

But Taint got a great point, while mathematicaly possible, WS at every 1000 TP might be a challenge when in RL experience.
 Asura.Arthuruss
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By Asura.Arthuruss 2019-11-03 10:16:31
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Let's say we use Fudo on Amano, since it's agreed that it's way better at higher that 1000TP than Kaiten. Do you think Amano higher base weapon damage could close the gap with Masa?:

Amano: Dmg 326
SC damage + 5%.
+60 Accuracy
+10 Stp

Masamune: Dmg 319
+70 STR = 7-8 weapon damage
+ 10% Tachi Fudo.
50% triple white damage


TP phase = a
WS phase = b
Total damage = c = a + b

Amano = a + b = c
a 0.15 + b 0.85 = c
a 0.15 + b 0.85 = c 1


Masa = 1.50a + 1.10b = c
a (1.5x0.15) + b(1.1×0.85) = c
a 0.23 + b 0.93 = c 1.16

So, if i'm not totally mistaken, at the end of the day, Masa would be better than Amano if both use Fudo, by about 16%.

*I didn't put the 16% for x 2.5 of Amano b/c it seems negligible.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2019-11-03 10:36:08
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amano auto damage too high and masamune's auto damage too low, along with many other factors not being considered. amano is not close to masamune at all
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By Asura.Bippin 2019-11-03 10:41:29
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The only time amano is worth using over Masa, is if you need the 60acc
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 Asura.Arthuruss
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By Asura.Arthuruss 2019-11-03 10:51:30
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Austar: Just to be sure that i understand correctly, are you saying that white damage is higher that 15%?
From what i gather and tests i read, i think it's about that number that makes a concensus.
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By Asura.Arthuruss 2019-11-03 10:54:23
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(Btw, i totally agree that Masa is better in RL situation! : )
Just wanting to see if Amano is really that bad compared to it and by how much approximately ^^)
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By Ramuh.Austar 2019-11-03 10:54:44
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16% chance at 2.5x damage only happens on the first swing, so it's not that high. 50% chance at 3x damage on any swing averages to 2x damage. the auto attack to ws damage ratio is going to change, it's just a poor way to calculate the difference in the weapons
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2019-11-03 10:58:43
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Asura.Arthuruss said: »
(Btw, i totally agree that Masa is better in RL situation! : )
Just wanting to see if Amano is really that bad compared to it and by how much approximately ^^)

depending on your gear, buffs, and target upwards of 25%
 Asura.Arthuruss
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By Asura.Arthuruss 2019-11-03 11:01:13
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Austar you are totally right about the auto attack i'll try to adjust those numbers to reflect this.

25% really? May i ask how you get to that number?
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2019-11-03 11:02:56
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simulation
 Asura.Arthuruss
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By Asura.Arthuruss 2019-11-03 11:15:35
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Austar i updated the post for auto attack. I totally removed the 16% x 2.5 white damage of amano b/c it felt negligible.
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By Bahamut.Alexcennah 2019-11-03 11:31:20
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Also Masa's STR+70 is effectively a DMG+56 bonus to Fudo (because Fudo's 80% STR modifier). Kaiten has the same modifier but no STR bonus from Amano.
 Asura.Arthuruss
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By Asura.Arthuruss 2019-11-03 11:35:59
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Playing with the SAM spreadsheet, iget those numbers:

Total damage for Masa: 26145
Total damage for Amano: 23176

So Masa would be 13% better according to those numbers.

I used the same gear with spreadsheet.

Seems possible?
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2019-11-03 11:49:39
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Asura.Arthuruss said: »
Seems possible?
what does?

and I don't use the spreadsheets
 Asura.Arthuruss
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By Asura.Arthuruss 2019-11-03 12:02:18
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Ah!

I meant if does numbers seems possible.

I think spreadsheet is deemed an acurate tool by a great number of the community no?
 Asura.Arthuruss
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By Asura.Arthuruss 2019-11-03 12:04:41
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So, with my numbers, i get Masa > Amano by 16% and with spreadsheet we get Masa > Amano by 13%.

We probably can agree that the difference between Masa and Amano is close to 15% then i think.
 Asura.Shiraj
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-11-03 12:13:13
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Asura.Arthuruss said: »
I think spreadsheet is deemed an acurate tool by a great number of the community no?

Spreadsheets have some form of accuracy in seeing best sets/builds in a given situation, however, most situations which are in the spreadsheet never actually happen. So numbers generated by it are often different and way higher than reality.
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By SimonSes 2019-11-03 12:19:18
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Asura.Arthuruss said: »
SimonSes: Please dont be mean.

Im not mean. I'm being serious. You are trying to oversimplify this way too much. SAM has massive TP overflow. To the point that you wouldn't probably even use Kaiten with Amano, but Fudo. Austar can clarify this.
 Asura.Arthuruss
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By Asura.Arthuruss 2019-11-03 12:31:20
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SimonSes: Yes i got your point and it s true that in RL situation using Kaiten at 1000 TP is an utopy.

Thats why I redid my math using Fudo with both GKT.

Shiraj: ok ty for the clarification. But, if it produces higher numbers, it should affect both Amano and Masa numbers so it doesnt mean that the % of difference between those is wrong no?
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2019-11-03 12:48:51
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there are many limitations to a spreadsheet as opposed to a simulation. and like I said, you can get a huge difference between the two weapons. this is 10,000 three minute long fights where both weapons start at 3K tp, open with their aftermath ws (so kaiten and fudo) and then use fudo as soon as possible:
Code
Average of runs:  8590.1
     StD:  281.0 2
     Range:  1910.2199999999993
     WS Average:  30747.0 2
     WS StD:  851.0 2
     WS Range:  4965.75

Code
Average of runs:  10764.3
     StD:  460.0 2
     Range:  2989.0099999999984
     WS Average:  35828.0 2
     WS StD:  1353.0 2
     WS Range:  9552.830000000002
 Asura.Shiraj
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-11-03 12:54:49
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Asura.Arthuruss said: »
Shiraj: ok ty for the clarification. But, if it produces higher numbers, it should affect both Amano and Masa numbers so it doesnt mean that the % of difference between those is wrong no?

You have to make sure everything is correct in the spreadsheet, a mis-calculation in 1 formula can mess it all up, if it isn't calculating fTP transfer, STR mod, capped accuracy, capped attack, all of these things and maybe more can alter the results. But Masamune should always destroy Amano in terms of raw damage output.
 Asura.Arthuruss
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By Asura.Arthuruss 2019-11-03 12:55:28
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Ok here are more numbers since we like them so much!!

From SAM spreadsheet (Total damage output):

Doji 121 (Final Aug): 26276
Masa 121(Final Aug): 26145
Amano 121 (Final aug): 23176
Koga 121(Final Aug): 22020
Masa 119 III: 20419
Amano 119 III: 19763
Koga 119 III: 19493

So we can say that Doji and Masa in their final form seems pretty close. Amano follows then Koga.

But we can also say that if one got amano and final upgrage it (23176), it'll be stronger than the non final upgraded Masa (20419).

So Masa and Do ji are still king of the hill for sure, but Amano is still far from trash.

If one go all the way with their Amano, it should outparse a Masa 119 III.
 Asura.Arthuruss
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By Asura.Arthuruss 2019-11-03 12:57:05
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Austar: Can you help me get my hands on one of those simulation tool? where can i find it? Tyvm!
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-11-03 12:58:14
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R15 Masa should utterly destroy R15 Doji as well. Doji is really good at solo skillchaining, but even then Masa is not far behind.

Something might be up with your formula to have Doji beating Masa.
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By Asura.Arthuruss 2019-11-03 13:01:16
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Shiraj: Well I only changed weapons so everything else remains the same. I really don t know what it could be.
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By SimonSes 2019-11-03 13:01:53
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Are you really trying to judge hierarchy of weapons only by their WS damage at 1000TP (not even listing what WS are you using). I can't even take you serious right now and normally I would call you troll, but I think it's not intentional from you and you are just that much unaware of what you are doing.
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