Is Vajra Worth Making Anymore?

Building tp isn't hard at all on thief. I can fulltime my relic gloves and still maintain a 55% triple attack rate with ~~ 30 sTP. And SA or TA + rudra's hits as hard or harder than any of the 2 hander's weaponskills. It's pretty easy to maintain level 2 or 3 aftermath fulltime in dynamis too, and the extra DPS really adds up. Also the Nms have enough hp to last a minute or more, depending on wave and job, and thief's combined dps, weaponskill power, and skillchain damage really shines there. Thief's highest tier gear selections are much stronger in relation the other dd classes compared to past eras. You're selling the job short if you don't think it can keep up in damage output.



And this is also true. Thief's only weakness anymore is our relative vulnerability to taking damage on higher tier content versus the other jobs. We can't do our job safely from range, and we have lower HP and overall defense than the 2 hander jobs. Surviving in higher level content up till now has been doable with proper mitigation sets, but it comes as a significant loss of damage stats. Malignance changes everything here. It's got near premium TP building stats and it's offers protection like a fortress. Highest magic evasion in the game, caps haste, extremely high accuracy, -31% dt, and 50 sTP. It's everything we could ask for in a defensive set and then some. That's game changing on harder stuff. With 5/5 malignance I'll be able to ride capped -dt just with 2 moonlight rings and -10 dt on my tp cape, or I could swap in my normal tp rings and still ride a -41% PDT set with capped magic defenses and maintain over 30% triple attack rate.

Thief's triple attack rate is just absurd nowadays, and we have some really powerful weapons and weaponskill gear to back it up. In the current meta a well geared thief should be able to keep up with any of the other DDs on almost all content, and I speak from personal experience when I say that I've grouped with apoc drks, masa sams, chango wars and held my own or surpassed them on anything that isn't a straight up zerg. Zergs are the one area where thief's limit is a fair bit lower than a proper zerging class, and that's because we're a DPS class with high spike damage from SA and TA every minute. So you are correct that a thief won't ever win a zerg, nor should they. However, on anything else the only way I won't keep up is if you throw me in the off party and don't give me proper buffs, but then that becomes a party configuration issue rather than a job potential issue. Any underbuffed job will suffer no matter how high their potential is.

At this point not bringing a well geared THF is absurd. If two jobs can maintain high DPS and live; im going to want to bring the one that gives TH9+ :P

Andddd for what it's worth. R15 Vajra with this malignance set is is stupid good. I only have 4/5 Malignance at the moment; but I can tell you that getting TP in this set is not a problem.

How does it compare to R 15 Twashtar though? That set has potential but does it even have a chance without the Rudra's damage when you are using TA or SA?

You would still weaponskill in your usual weaponskill gear. Malignance is just for building tp. Comparatively, Vajra does gain more from tping in malignance than Twashter does, but as simon pointed out in the sticky even with 5/5 malignance just using our standard accessories we would still be able to get 30% TA rate. Consider this

6% TA rate -- base TA II Job Trait, always active
5% TA -- merits category 1
8% TA -- Gifts through job points mastery
5% TA -- Gere Ring
2% TA -- Hetaiori ring
4% TA -- Assassin's gorget +2

That's 30% TA rate while still maintaining capped -MDT, having -41% PdT, full magic evasion and around 70 sTP (10 on cape and 10 more from sherida and telos).

The point of malignance is to use it on dangerous stuff where survivability becomes an issue. Outside of that you;d just use your standard go to DPS equipment. It shouldn't have any bearing on your weaponskill attire, that's still gonna be whatever makes rudra's hit the hardest for you.

I think you misunderstood me but thanks for the response. My question was general about the Twashtar vs Vajra status. Even with Vajra matching well with this set does it actually perform well enough to consider wearing Vajra over Twashtar in situations where you need DT or would you still just be better off in your Twashtar and wearing the set?

It shouldn't change anything no. This just means that whenever Vajra is best it'll be even better. There was a brief discussion on this in the sticky thread right after the patch released. The general accepted heirarchy should still be Twashter --> Aeneas --> Vajra. But keep in mind that's just a generality. When you're running low buff or solo content Tauret outperforms all three of the REMAs, and we've already touched upon scenarios where Vajra is the ideal choice earlier in this thread, and yes, I'm sure there are times where Aeneas is the best option too. Any of the dagger combos are worth pursuing.

And honestly as long as you're using one of the above you should be pretty good for clearing most any content. I'm kind of tired of the REMA debate at this point. All of them perform exceptionally well, but to get the most out of any of them you need to have proper gear to back it up. Having top of the line gear and any one of the ultimate dagger options will hands down crush any of the alternative ultimate dagger choices with average gear. If you ask me thief's current power stems from a bunch of cumulative changes over the years that together have really boosted its potential

--The 1 handed update in July of 2013 that changed main hand accuracy and attack calculations to follow the same numbers as 2 handers get, and offhand accuracy calculations to do the same. Only offhand attack remained a 2/1 ratio.
--Dagger skill raised from A to A + in 2014
--the 2014 weaponskill overhaul that vastly upgraded rudra's and mandalic's power, and boosted evisceration's by a respectable chunk as well.
--November 2018 update to mainhand strength calculations universally applying the 1 to 1 strength/attack calculation for all classes.
--Genuinely powerful gear upgrades and a solid bonus from our job points/gifts tree. Like seriously, thief has never had access to as many meta trendy DD options as we do now. Our accessories are on par with all the other top tier DD's, our ambuscade cape has triple attack damage + 20%, our artifact and relic upgrades are genuinely powerful DD pieces, we have just as much WSD and Crit damage + available for our weaponskills as all the other heavy dd classes, and once you go over 50% triple attack rate you get just as many extra attack rounds as warrior does with 100% Double attack. And that's a really big deal.

So yeah, I'm at the point now where I'm done trying to argue any one dagger is better than the other. I acknowledge there's situationality among them. Thief isn't a strong DD because it has Twashter, Aeneas, Vajra, or Tauret. It's a strong DD because it has those weapons on top of a boat load of powerful DD armor and accessories to back them up, as well as accesses to top tier weaponskills that scale extremely well and keep up with all the other classes strongest weaponskill options. The REMA's aren't the source of our power, they're an extension of it. It's not one small thing, it's everything working in tandem. THAT'S why thief is such a strong DD when it's properly geared.

DD Job type and slight difference in gears doesnt matter much in dyna D anyways. Lags and engage speed is what really matters in a parse.

Ive seen people with identical gear level/playstyle on the same job with almost 100% dps gap on dyna D parse despite everyone has similar ws avg. Thats how big of a difference engage speed can make.

If people are worrying about their jobs or rema being incompetent as DD in dyna D, The first thing they can to do is turn off settings for better frame rate and turn on auto engage. That will improve dps more than anything else.

I dont see enemies live in less than 2 sec being that much of an issue, as long as players engage different mob from everyone else. Trying to assist other DD in dyna D(or any other content) is no.1 dps killer, it should be avoided.

Or if you absolutely cant use SATA, maybe offhand TP bonus and spam ws at 1000 TP without JA use can be a solution(not that Ive tried, just brainstorming). THF is on naegline too, I think SB with TP bonus out perform rudra with rema that way?

This, this, and more of this. A million times over just this.

I only use SA or TA on NM's, and my only Dyna-D I've run in the last 3 months was a wave 3 attempt where I was top of the parse the entire way. THF can't keep up? You're just a bad THF, or playing with one.

As others have said, engage speed and being able to spam a WS is vastly more important. Properly buff all the DD's and they're basically all going to result in the same competency assuming solid gear and an active playstyle. The major advantages to particular jobs will depend on things more like enmity generation (this is where COR is OP, because Leaden has reduced enmity as a magical WS) and how much DPS is lost when you inevitably need to be tanking. Some jobs go full turtle to try to survive, others can keep going in a reasonable hybrid set.

My last wave 3 run was an interesting one. We had myself THF, two DRK's, and final DD was relic DRG. Only one COR even melee'd, and he was 5th on parse. We had an off party BLU who parsed below my SC damage for the entire run (no attack/acc buffs sucks hard in Dyna wave 3). We still managed to get final boss to 16% while skipping a fetter, and my dumb *** (and the GEO since she's mine) dying to Odin because I didn't have RR. We also mostly wiped on wave 2 boss (only tank didn't die, we all waited to recover). If we hadn't lost time on wave 2 boss, and got the final fetter dead, and my dumb *** had RR, we would have managed the clear, with functionally 3 full DD, a DRG, and a NQ COR, with the THF leading the parse.

This leads me to what I've been saying for a while: Max DPS is not that big of a deal in current stage of FFXI. Our hiccups had nothing to do with job choices, and entirely to do with configuration and execution. If we had a 3rd GEO for wilt on wave 2 boss, we may not have wiped. If we just had 2 COR's able to mostly keep up with the other DD (as the job is fully able to do...hell a proper COR "should" be winning wave 3 boss parse) we would have won for sure. This game is far less about "this job is best DPS" than it is finding the proper players and support for said players and executing. You should always strive to be the best you can be, but you shouldn't stress about having a particular DD job to clear content.

Why people even write things like that? You wrote small wall of text and starting it like that. I would probably ignore your whole post if I were him.

This is especially silly on your part because you even stated you have done 1 dynamis on thf in the past 3 months. It's seriously funny.

THF CAN't keep up in dynamis vs stronger DDs if everyone are playing without serious lag and are evenly good at engaging mobs asap. You have less dps in longer fights and you have other mechanics working against you. I'm tempted to actually make full thread about dps and parses in dynamisD.

I'm now waiting for Shozokui to come here and write you something like "You're just a bad DRG, or playing with one. DRG should easily won the parse in Dynamis". Popcorn mode on.


Proper cor not only should win the parse on final boss but actually totally destroys it. By using SPs WARs can keep up with CORs or even beat them in first minute, but they will pay the price of taking hate much sooner and die or turtle for a long time.

Make it if you play Thief a LOT. It really is a fantastic weapon.

I play THF a lot and dont use Vajra at all tbh. It has niche uses like light SC and super low buff scenario, but generally it's only a weapon you will use because you are bored of using Twashtar/Tauret.

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It has niche uses like light SC and super low buff scenario
Most of my playtime yea, love it

AM3 with malignance is nice and makes thf a little more stoudt and not squishy. I personally run Vajra/Cento almost full time.

I use my THF a bunch when I'm not on my Geo main. I play frequently with a friend who mains RUN and uses Resolution. We find ourselves using Mandalic Stab + Resolution to make light. I don't know the knitty gritty maths, but my guess is that in the scenario where we are together, a Vajra would be the best case scenario to help make that light instead of a Rudra's with Twashtar.

That's if the OP finds himself in that scenario, or if they even read this as it was necro'd.

I have mandau, twashtar, tauret, and aneas...and I'm working on Vajra.

All these daggers are situational, but in a zerg situation where you're going to get off maybe 2xSA and 2xTA (or so) before the mob dies im betting (about 180M gil) that Vajra will pull out ahead.

I'm savvy enough to pull off 2xSA and 2xTA in a fast zerg on escha NMs and im dropping below a very solid top ls dd by only a few %s using some variation of the daggers above, but that's with SA-WS hitting about 60-70k or so. Without much room for white damage, that pushes out Twashtar. I've got my highest returns in that scenario from Anus/Twash (having tested this many many times).

Is it "worth it" to do all that work for it for that scenario only? That's up to you. But I find this to be the best/only situation in which you'd need it.

Skip it... its doo doo...

Vajra is amazing when paired with malignance and the attack bonus on mandalic works well with the pdl on the gleti set. Using twash in malignance feels painful. R15 vajra mandalic is not that much weaker than rudras with twash, and you have bonus to sata as well. The main drawbacks are no self SC and much lower white dmg.

In zerg in escha, 60-70k is what other dd jobs can do with normal WS without SA or TA. DRG can spam 70k savage blades if you buff him with warcry from WAR. R15 Twashtar in zerg in escha will probably do almost 50k Rudra too and probably 80-90k with sneak attack. Vajra is good for low buffs slow fights and/or if you to tank while dd and you are in Malignance anyway, not for zergs.

...there's a couple major differences. Again, I'm #2 in the parse in these zergs with some major players.

1. I can throw ws's at exactly 100% and achieve these numbers, no holding tp. When using Shining One, for example, you gotta hold til 1750 to get kin returns.

2. I literally ws every 2-3 seconds.

On very high Def mobs (reisenjima big boys) thf falls way behind "heavier" dds. But I'll parse top 2-3 every time with a room full of Sam, mnk, and war with aneas on these zergs. With the vajra sata boost I'm hoping to get a few 1st in sky and mid level reisenjima.

You cant Ws every 2 sec. delay between WS and TP is 2sec. Fastest you can actually WS again is around 4-5sec.


Except in zerg you have Warcry and you dont need to hold anything. Some WSs naturally do 50k+ in Escha. Expiacion on BLU does 50k+ at 1000+TP usually with Thibron offhand. With Warcry its almost always 50k+. DRG Savage does 60-70k Savage at 1000TP with Warcry. MNK with Godhands and warcry can also spam 50-70k WS non stop (with spikes to 99k). Also WAR itself can also do massive WSs with warcry, not to mention with Might Strikes.


This doesnt make sense. in Escha zergs you use Frailty and Dia to pretty much drop NMs def to like 1-100 def. Even naked whm with lvl 1 club would be attack capped most of the time.

Cue Unsolved Mysteries "Update" line:



Yeah. I think the OP ended up making it.

Is there an update to this question regarding the prime weapon final stage for Mpu Gandring https://www.ffxiah.com/item/21590/mpu-gandring ?

Are you asking if the existence of the Prime Weapon makes this one more useless or are you asking if you should get the Prime Weapon?

Both

Eeeehh...
I feel like Vajra, while not being the best dagger around for THF, unfairly gets left out of the picture more often than needed.
I think Vajra is a fun weapon to mess around with and Mandalic is the only decent fusion option for THF on dagger. Mandalic Stab with Vajra isn't really that much far behind Rudra and both are incredibly nice light-based and dark-based single hit WSs that synergyze incredibly well with SA/TA.

Mpu Gandring Stage 5 of course is the best overall DPS option, but I don't think it's such a huge leap forward the compared to the other options eh.
Ruthless Stroke is very nice and indirectly offers fusion as well (2 steps) but doesn't synergize with SA/TA as well as Rudra/Mandalic, I believe.

Is anything worth making anymore

I would say it didn't change much. Vajra is still an option if you want specifically Fusion WS to skillchain with someone or if you want the highest tp gain to idk make a 6 step skillchain or if you are very underbuffed and lots of your damage comes from Esse stacked with SA or TA.