The Last Dance III: A Dancer's Guide *New*
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The Last Dance III: A Dancer's Guide *New*
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 Afania
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By Afania 2019-07-25 11:20:55
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malakef said: »
Asura.Cambion said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
I used the spreadsheet modified by Madranta. If you notice something please make the adjustments and let me know.

I know a few mentioned other issues with that DPS Sheet, but I'm pretty sure the Evisceration Formula is still *** up in that version as well. Simon and I went over this... oh god, 6 months ago ish? And I updated them in mine, but it's all on Google Docs rather than a local file on my PC.

Let me know if this link works for anyone if you can DL/Duplicate it.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FJFwBx38ZUxkYdT3Pcvv-laqxmXciIo9Zl0atxhYhS0/edit?usp=sharing

This one looks better. It doesn’t have the evisceration bonus for Tauret and we still need a new formula to handle its crit applying during tp phase only. For other users also realize it’s been slightly personalized to his gear so you may need to tweak the augments.

There are also a lot of buffs toggled off in this version so don’t forget to toggle them on if looking for max DPS numbers.

Be warned, because the pDif has been updated the results for climactic are going to be much higher than prior sheets showed.

*Edit*
I also noticed that building flourish is not giving the WS Damage bonus from gifts.


This isn't just dnc specific. You can't just enter the gear/buff info and expect anything that comes out will be correct number. You kinda have to do some manual calculation with the info.

In terms of wsd from BF or pulse weapon/r15, the best way is to manually add the additional wsd after you get the ws number. Then input the number to the sheet for entire dps.

For Tauret crit bonus, I guess you can calculate the avg crit rate from 0 to 1000 then manually add it?

Dnc sheet has a lot of JA on off toggles but I don't trust any of them functioning correctly. I only ever use ws cycle time/dmg info and ws avg info whenever I use spreadsheet to calculate dps regardless of job.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2019-07-26 03:24:06
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Shiva.Flowen said: »
Lack of male dancer images aside (!), guide looks visually great. War subjob text needs tweaking re fencer (boosts tp bonus for single wield only) and think you mean sekkanoki instead of shikikoyo on sam sub.

You’re right about male dancers, I’ll try to add some in the Jigs and Trance sections.

In regards to WAR sub, it’s not just for fencer in single wield, it’s also in my opinion the go to option in both firing Rudras on enemies without engaging and Twashtar main dancers in general who play conservatively without saber dance.

Sekkanoki was added instead of Shikikoyo, thanks for the comments.
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 Afania
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By Afania 2019-07-26 19:18:18
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Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Shiva.Flowen said: »
Lack of male dancer images aside (!), guide looks visually great. War subjob text needs tweaking re fencer (boosts tp bonus for single wield only) and think you mean sekkanoki instead of shikikoyo on sam sub.

You’re right about male dancers, I’ll try to add some in the Jigs and Trance sections.

In regards to WAR sub, it’s not just for fencer in single wield, it’s also in my opinion the go to option in both firing Rudras on enemies without engaging and Twashtar main dancers in general who play conservatively without saber dance.

Sekkanoki was added instead of Shikikoyo, thanks for the comments.


If you are firing rudra without engaging then the go to offhand would be a cento. Fencer is weaker than cento.
 Asura.Cambion
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By Asura.Cambion 2019-07-26 21:41:07
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malakef said: »
Asura.Cambion said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
I used the spreadsheet modified by Madranta. If you notice something please make the adjustments and let me know.

I know a few mentioned other issues with that DPS Sheet, but I'm pretty sure the Evisceration Formula is still *** up in that version as well. Simon and I went over this... oh god, 6 months ago ish? And I updated them in mine, but it's all on Google Docs rather than a local file on my PC.

Let me know if this link works for anyone if you can DL/Duplicate it.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FJFwBx38ZUxkYdT3Pcvv-laqxmXciIo9Zl0atxhYhS0/edit?usp=sharing

This one looks better. It doesn’t have the evisceration bonus for Tauret and we still need a new formula to handle its crit applying during tp phase only. For other users also realize it’s been slightly personalized to his gear so you may need to tweak the augments.

There are also a lot of buffs toggled off in this version so don’t forget to toggle them on if looking for max DPS numbers.

Be warned, because the pDif has been updated the results for climactic are going to be much higher than prior sheets showed.

*Edit*
I also noticed that building flourish is not giving the WS Damage bonus from gifts.

I had a separate spreadsheet I use for Tauret. On the 'Data' tab, scroll to the bottom, Cell E211 and manually enter 150%. (Relic Bonus) and it will calculate the WS Damage with a 50% bonus. That was the workaround I used, but I didn't add anything else at that time, because the math was still under review of the Crit bonus rate. Haven't really played in ~6 months, in which people probably found the answer.

Buffs are toggled off, because I played Dnc as a Solo Job 90% of the time, and everything was based on a trust party if I recall correctly. So for anyone using my link above, I would update all of the buff values as they are likely all Trust Values, not Human values.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2019-07-27 02:00:47
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Afania said: »
If you are firing rudra without engaging then the go to offhand would be a cento. Fencer is weaker than cento.

Oh, thats not why it was used. WAR is still better sub for fights like Erinys and Onychophora with Cento Offhand.

To make it clear:

  • Fencer is the best for Twashtar/Airy combo.


  • WAR is best for Zerg if you don't use Saber Dance.


  • WAR is best for firing Rudra without engaging in fights like Erinys and Onychophora. I was team THF sub before, but I changed that later on.



Personally, I use WAR sub 90% of the time on Twashtar because in moments where I need access to waltz or fan dance I can still have all the offensive abilities WAR can give.

Don't get me wrong though, SAM is a great sub; especially when facing enemies. But lets say I like to have extra offensive options on Dancer for maximum DPS.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2019-07-27 02:30:00
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Afania said: »
Other small things:
1) I feel the guide could use a shark bite set. Its a useful frag ws for sc and doesnt require merit nor aeonic main hand.

2) I think the guide could have a section for multi step SC since its important part of job. See DRG guide on bg wiki.

Many people like to suggest evis > rudra > rudra but thats certainly not the strongest 3 step for weapons good at other ws such as tauret or terp. Exen > pk > evis is a much stronger 3 step for tauret for example.

3) I think the guide could also talk about other pt roles, such as main healing. Fan dance 5/5 lowers divine waltz 2 to 12 sec with recast- gears if I calculate correctly. Between single target waltz and divine 1 dnc should be able to comfortably replace a whm as a healer on things that doesnt spam aoe status ailment.

Thanks Afania for these points, I will try to respond to each one:

1- You're right, I will add that section for Shark Bite, I don't have the BiS set for it though, so if anyone would like to share them here in order to add them to the guide that would be great. Should also add Dancing Edge Set.

2-I thought I would leave that up to players to decide, I personally don't like to dictate what is the best solo skill chains since we have many daggers to use from and many combos.

For instance, for Terpsichore users, the best combo would be:
1-Shark Bite > Pyrrhic Kleos > Evisceration > Rudra's Storm
2-Pyrrhic Kleos > Evisceration > Rudra's Storm
3-Pyrrhic Kleos > Dancing Edge > Pyrrhic Kleos > Dancing Edge > Keep doing that forever.

And for Tauret or Twashtar main:
1-Evisceration > Shark Bite > Rudra's Storm > Evisceration > Rudra's Storm
1-Evisceration > Dancing Edge > Evisceration > Rudra's Storm
2-Evisceration > Rudra's Storm > Rudra's Storm


I can add these to the guide but again, wasn't thinking I should in the first place.

Side Note: The addition of Exenterator Set was only for AM activation on Aeonic, even though I personally think Dancers shouldn't use Aeneas in the first place. But its not my call to make.

3-In the Waltz section, I tried to add the info in the schedules with ranking the priorities for each, to give some hints on which to use in case you wanted to focus more on healing. It was also mentioned how you can effectively be the best frontline healers in game, but I didn't want to give paradigms to party setups excluding White Mages or Scholars.

Yes, Dancers can main heal but it shouldn't be the first "go to" option, its better to focus more on how flexible we can be. or at least thats the premise that I was working with.

If you wish to add that paragraph explaining how to main heal and if everyone is okay with it, I can add it to the introduction of Waltz or Defensive Abilities section.
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 Afania
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By Afania 2019-07-27 02:44:03
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Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Afania said: »
If you are firing rudra without engaging then the go to offhand would be a cento. Fencer is weaker than cento.

Oh, thats not why it was used. WAR is still better sub for fights like Erinys and Onychophora with Cento Offhand.

Oh, I didnt say anything war sub itself(nor flowen), he said something about fencer JT and I simply respond to it. Fencer(not war sub) is mostly irrelevant DD disengaged. Obviously you can sub war for dd disengage but its more ideal not to get the fencer bonus because cento is stronger.
 ScaevolaBahamut
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2019-08-02 09:42:40
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Leviathan.Katriina said: »
For instance, for Terpsichore users, the best combo would be:
1-Shark Bite > Pyrrhic Kleos > Evisceration > Rudra's Storm
2-Pyrrhic Kleos > Evisceration > Rudra's Storm
3-Pyrrhic Kleos > Dancing Edge > Pyrrhic Kleos > Dancing Edge > Keep doing that forever.

I...really want to try PK>DE>eternity now
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2019-08-04 06:18:31
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Afania said: »
I dont agree with this. I get that terp is king of melee mythic for long time so people naturally feel that way, and career dnc can probably parse very high with terp too. But Im going to pick best all around performer thats either #1 or #2 for all of ws its most likely to be R15 Twashtar.

This was debated over and over through the previous guide, and although I'm personally team Twashtar like you, I can't deny how Terpsichore Dancers preform compared to Twashtar ones.

The general consensus if you execute PK exactly at 1k it will come on top always according to parse and testimonies. But I have my doubts..

My hesitation towards finishing my Terpsichore stems from my experience in high-end content as a Twashtar Dancer. I almost always come on top with other Terpsichore Dancers and break Top Tier jobs when Trance, Grand Pas are utilized spamming Climactic Rudras. (I dont want to mention how Presto and Tauret post update tinkered with the overall ranking for Daggers)

Adding to that the gearing choices for both types, to me it seems its more time consuming for Terpsichore Dancers vs Twashtar ones, they have more sets to develop if they plan on using all Weaponskills and every trick in the book. (not to mention subjobs according to fights)

But I had to go with what they say: If you really want an all rounder at R15 for situations like solo and/or zerg at 1K then Terpsichore should be the first option.

In my case, I personally avoid adding such questions to the guide, but it was requested several times during development.

Hope that helps.
 FaeQueenCory
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By FaeQueenCory 2019-08-04 09:33:51
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Leviathan.Katriina said: »
2-I thought I would leave that up to players to decide, I personally don't like to dictate what is the best solo skill chains since we have many daggers to use from and many combos.

For instance, for Terpsichore users, the best combo would be:
1-Shark Bite > Pyrrhic Kleos > Evisceration > Rudra's Storm
2-Pyrrhic Kleos > Evisceration > Rudra's Storm
3-Pyrrhic Kleos > Dancing Edge > Pyrrhic Kleos > Dancing Edge > Keep doing that forever.

And for Tauret or Twashtar main:
1-Evisceration > Shark Bite > Rudra's Storm > Evisceration > Rudra's Storm
1-Evisceration > Dancing Edge > Evisceration > Rudra's Storm
2-Evisceration > Rudra's Storm > Rudra's Storm
It would probably be very helpful for new people to have a simple list they could replicate.... we all know how most people can only 2step Light/Dark. (Girl, you know people don't look up SC properties.)
So a section just for multisteps would be a really good thing to have, I think and second. (especially if it means more people learn to skillchain better!)
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2019-08-04 09:42:19
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Quote:
Girl, you know people don't look up SC properties
Haha, okay then!
I will set some time for that.
 Afania
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By Afania 2019-08-04 11:27:04
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Been using fan dance 5/5 merit for quite some time and I really think this merit setup is very underratted in the community.

Extra pdt from the bangle is nice bonus but the biggest benefit is reduced recast for divine waltz 2. Its possible to keep entire pt alive endlessly if your whm isnt doing their job. Its like extra safety net for majority of PUG and things.

Without merit I feel the recast is too long and its not reliable to depend on if mob spams aoe more frenquently.

Or maybe its because ambu in both june and july are mnks or has conal moves which makes closed position less attractive. And wave 3 has mnks drgs and mobs spinning all over the place makes it harder to face them. In those cases CP doesnt add much.

I feel fan dance 5/5 should be at least close to closed position 5/5 in terms of usefulness.
 Asura.Cambion
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By Asura.Cambion 2019-08-04 15:01:23
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Afania said: »
Been using fan dance 5/5 merit for quite some time and I really think this merit setup is very underratted in the community.

Extra pdt from the bangle is nice bonus but the biggest benefit is reduced recast for divine waltz 2. Its possible to keep entire pt alive endlessly if your whm isnt doing their job. Its like extra safety net for majority of PUG and things.

Without merit I feel the recast is too long and its not reliable to depend on if mob spams aoe more frenquently.

Or maybe its because ambu in both june and july are mnks or has conal moves which makes closed position less attractive. And wave 3 has mnks drgs and mobs spinning all over the place makes it harder to face them. In those cases CP doesnt add much.

I feel fan dance 5/5 should be at least close to closed position 5/5 in terms of usefulness.


With Anwig Salade and Maxixi Body taking 4 seconds off your delay, combined with Fan Dance, it's 8sec for T1 and 15sec for T2.
For me: (I'm not fully optimized, this is in Rei...w/e so might be inaccurate based on blessings or w/e they're called.)
T2 Heals for 911
T1 Heals for 360
Waltz 3 for 1099.

Ignoring that we still have waltz 1,2,4, and 5 on separate timers, if you're DD'ing and healing that much, the tank is most likely you and the mob is looking at you, bringing Closed Position back into effect.

I have no issue with wanting to have Fan Dance at 5/5, but your WHM has to be dead or non existent, and party eating massive amounts of repeated AoE Damage in a very short time to create a scenario where I could justify 5/5 Fan Dance for healing timers in party-centric scenarios.

For Solo focused Dnc, I could see it. But you're still sacrificing 15 sTP which is what, ~100DPS?

Curiosity math: Base
D1: 13 Sec
D2: 20 Sec

5/5 Fan Dance = 25%
% + Gear
D1: 10 Sec (-4) = 6 Sec recast
D2: 15 Sec (-4) = 11 Sec recast

From this Point of View...
911
360
1099
360
911

In 12 seconds, you'd be healing 2,542 AoE and at least another 1100 in single target with just a Waltz 3.

That's a rough situation you'd need to be in to justify all that.
 Bismarck.Nickeny
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By Bismarck.Nickeny 2019-08-04 16:28:16
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The fun thing about current ffxi is that I usually have capped merits to were swapping out depending on what I'm doing on the fly

If you know the whm is balls awful and wiping or no aoe heals at all you could always make this adjustment prior to and change back if your attempting a zerg situation Etc
 Asura.Cambion
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By Asura.Cambion 2019-08-04 19:48:00
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Well last night I accidentally popped Warder of Love and randomly got Passion Jacket. Went to test around with it for lulz because I remember wanting one... oh 5 years ago by now?

Upon doing so, I realized my gearswap wasn't properly handling WaltzSelf. I know there's a hand full of people who use my Lua, so just wanted to update the file in case they feel they need for it. I'm not sure if Arislan's works, but more than likely it was something I broke in Arislan's original file when I scavenged it. Anyways, here's the code in Isolation, the full Lua, and the Waltz results for anyone interested:

Base code. (Find this specific function and add the following lines excluding the function and one end ***If the function already exists.
If you don't have the function already, then copy/past the entire thing, somewhere down in the functions.
Code 
function job_post_precast(spell, action, spellMap, eventArgs)
	
		if spell.english == "Curing Waltz" or spell.english == "Curing Waltz II" or spell.english == "Curing Waltz III" or spell.english == "Curing Waltz IV" or spell.english == "Curing Waltz V" and spell.target.type == 'SELF' then
		if state.CastingMode.value == 'Enmity' then
		equip(sets.precast.WaltzSelf.Enmity)
		else
		equip(sets.precast.WaltzSelf)
		end
	end
	
end


Full Lua
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.

The sets being compared:
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.

Regular Waltz focuses on 50% Potency and Max Cooldown (-4sec) with Anwig and Maxixi Body. This is what I use when I'm curing anyone other than myself, including Divine and Healing Waltz'. However when I cure myself, because with Waltz.Refine it will automatically up/downgrade based on HP combined with our split Waltz timers, I'm more concerned with efficiency.

Therefore WaltzSelf maximizes (to my current knowledge) all Waltz Potency received gear 25%, while still maintaining 50% potency cap. I believe Byrth has stated the Potency Received Cap is 30%, but I believe that was condition specific based on Atma, maybe?

Old Set/Waltz
Waltz 1: 360
Waltz 2: 674
Waltz 3: 1099
Waltz 4: 1587
Waltz 5: 2038

New Set/WaltzSelf
Waltz 1: 383
Waltz 2: 719
Waltz 3: 1168
Waltz 4: 1683
Waltz 5: 2157

I don't have the inventory to carry all the Vit/Chr gear, but this was a simple 1 item addition that adds a noticeable amount of HP. 5 Years late, but thought I'd share.

Inb4 you need +3feet nub!
 Afania
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By Afania 2019-08-04 21:05:42
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Asura.Cambion said: »
15sec for T2.
.


Huh, the math seems off.

Fan dance: Each merit level past the first reduces Waltz recast by 5%.

4x5 is 20%.

20% of 20 sec is 4 sec reduction.

Body is -2 and anwig is another -2, thats 4 more sec reduction.

20-4-4=12 sec

Ive tried main heal with 1/5 fan dance last month because whm mp may drop to 0 if they get hit too many times. It was very hard with repeat aoe dmg.

With 5/5 its MUCH easier to main heal most situation in game as long as status ailment isnt there.

Asura.Cambion said: »
For Solo focused Dnc, I could see it. But you're still sacrificing 15 sTP which is what, ~100DPS?

I use qa +3 herculean which is better than horo if not facing the mob. Checked spreadsheet its only 40 dps lose when you CAN face mob.

40 dps wont be anywhere close to noticable on parse especially if mob spins back and forth or has conal moves. Shorter divine waltz 2 recast and 5 more pdt for oh ***moment very often well.

Idk, personally I think having to DD in front of mob in many content is god awful. Even if mob has no conal move nor counter its less reaction time to swap to DT set when I pull hate because I often rely on watching mob direction to tell if I have hate or not. Its faster than rely on watching HP bar or chat log.

I would just never stand in front of a mob if I can on DD, and that makes closed position useless. I guess that also makes me prefer fan dance slightly more.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2019-08-05 01:11:03
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Afania said: »
I use qa +3 herculean which is better than horo if not facing the mob. Checked spreadsheet its only 40 dps lose when you CAN face mob

I use the same as you, but you can't generalize this case for none QA +3 Herc owners. Not everyone is as obsessed as some of us are :P
Thats a very niche situation you got there Afania.

The reason why Horos +3 and Closed Position 5/5 are "almost" mandatory these days, because we end up facing NM most of the time due to spike damage and CE. I don't think people "like" to face NMs aside maybe SAMs or MNKs.

And as I've mentioned in the guide, it's really up to you to decide where you want to spend your merits on, and its a very flexible decision to make with todays access to merit points.

Be that as it may, I will modify the merits categories for Closed Position and Fan Dance to "Situational" and will leave the recommend number of Merits.
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2019-08-05 07:15:14
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FaeQueenCory said: »
It would probably be very helpful for new people to have a simple list they could replicate

Added a new section for that, hope that helps.
[+]
 FaeQueenCory
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By FaeQueenCory 2019-08-05 08:14:25
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Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Added a new section for that, hope that helps.
(୨୧ ❛ᴗ❛)✧
You used my SC icons!! Just for that, let me make something fancy for Radiance and Umbra.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2019-08-05 08:33:25
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Sure thing!
[+]
 FaeQueenCory
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By FaeQueenCory 2019-08-05 08:52:03
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All done.... I make these at 525x525 and compress them down to 16x16. So they lose a bit of the filigree... but they're up with the same naming conventions and templates. ^^
[+]
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2019-08-05 11:05:56
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Wonderful, thank you. I’ll update them once I’m back!
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By Kwech 2019-08-05 16:29:29
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Katriina I've been wanting to say thanks for this guide for a little while now, it's really sparked great discussion here and in our ls discord, so thank you!

Here's something I noticed yesterday when poking around the wiki, the description of Grand Pas is incorrect there (and subsequently on your guide.)

Quote:
Resets Flourish recast timers upon activation and eliminates the recast times and TP costs of Finishing Moves.
The effect ends after 30 seconds or once three Finishing Moves are used.

I'm sure now that I've quoted the text, it's obvious what's wrong. Grand Pas eliminates the cost of Flourishes, not FMs. And if GP ended after 3 FMs were used, it would probably stink.
 Afania
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By Afania 2019-08-05 19:31:39
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Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Afania said: »
I use qa +3 herculean which is better than horo if not facing the mob. Checked spreadsheet its only 40 dps lose when you CAN face mob

I use the same as you, but you can't generalize this case for none QA +3 Herc owners. Not everyone is as obsessed as some of us are :P
Thats a very niche situation you got there Afania.

The reason why Horos +3 and Closed Position 5/5 are "almost" mandatory these days, because we end up facing NM most of the time due to spike damage and CE. I don't think people "like" to face NMs aside maybe SAMs or MNKs.

And as I've mentioned in the guide, it's really up to you to decide where you want to spend your merits on, and its a very flexible decision to make with todays access to merit points.

Be that as it may, I will modify the merits categories for Closed Position and Fan Dance to "Situational" and will leave the recommend number of Merits.


Well yeah, I dont mind other people prefer closed position slightly more. Just that Ive heard career dnc said more than 1 fan dance merit is useless, and I think this merit category deserves more credit than that.
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2019-08-06 02:46:20
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Kwech said: »
Katriina I've been wanting to say thanks for this guide for a little while now, it's really sparked great discussion here and in our ls discord, so thank you!

Here's something I noticed yesterday when poking around the wiki, the description of Grand Pas is incorrect there (and subsequently on your guide.)

Quote:
Resets Flourish recast timers upon activation and eliminates the recast times and TP costs of Finishing Moves.
The effect ends after 30 seconds or once three Finishing Moves are used.

I'm sure now that I've quoted the text, it's obvious what's wrong. Grand Pas eliminates the cost of Flourishes, not FMs. And if GP ended after 3 FMs were used, it would probably stink.

Thank you Kwech for your valuable input, I fixed the text already.
 Asura.Weinberg
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By Asura.Weinberg 2019-08-28 02:42:33
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While looking through the spreadsheet linked in the OP I noticed that the r15 Terp Pyrrhic Kleos damage was off. The spreadsheet uses 45% for the combined effect of the 30% mythic hidden effect and the r15 15% aug (additive), when it should be 49.5% (multiplicative).

Formula is on the sheet "Data" line 211 "relic bonus"
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2019-08-28 02:47:45
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Thanks Weinberg,

The spreadsheet linked was changed twice due to issues like this.
If anyone wants to work on fixing all the reported issues so far, I’d be more than glad to link it in the guide after modifications.
 Shiva.Pukkaup
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By Shiva.Pukkaup 2019-09-01 22:46:08
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hey does anyon have a bis set for am3 mythic ??
 SimonSes
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By SimonSes 2019-09-01 23:16:25
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Shiva.Pukkaup said: »
hey does anyon have a bis set for am3 mythic ??

ItemSet 368280

Body and hands will be new body and hands from upcoming HTMB with Lilith. Untill then it would be Turms+1 body and Adhemar gloves+1. Dampening tam is an option over Adhemar bonnet+1, but with that added PDL from body and hands, that attack on bonnet is kinda more attractive than before. Still most damage will come from WSs, so tam is good alternative.
[+]
 phunky
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By phunky 2019-09-02 15:30:09
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I see Maxixi Bangles +3 used over Adhemar Wrist +1 Path B in the Pyrric Kleos dream tier ws set.

Is 10% WS damage on a 4 hit WS really beat out 4 TA and higher str and dex on Adhemar?
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