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Make Paladin Great Again
Ragnarok.Martel said: » 68% PDT + an Ochain shield block(66%) is a -89.12% dmg reduction. Phalanx to 0 dmg. Haven't done super rigorous tests, but did a few and I'm almost sure that, just like with Aegis' mdt, you cant go above 87,5 pdt when adding the shields reduction to your dt set. (which would make Priwen worse than expected I guess) Maybe this is old news but anyway :o
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You can literally see 0s vs damage from mobs (of the right level) based on whether you’re facing the mobs or not.
Shichishito said: » there are only 2 tanks in the game in contrast to other classes like DD. in this case you don't face the situation where one job stands out OP and you have to nerf him or do lots more work by buffing all the others. BRD vs GEO all over again, perhaps caused by a glitch too, /shrug. Rostein said: » Ragnarok.Martel said: » 68% PDT + an Ochain shield block(66%) is a -89.12% dmg reduction. Phalanx to 0 dmg. Haven't done super rigorous tests, but did a few and I'm almost sure that, just like with Aegis' mdt, you cant go above 87,5 pdt when adding the shields reduction to your dt set. (which would make Priwen worse than expected I guess) Maybe this is old news but anyway :o Shield blocks are a separate term from PDT. They are not additive like MDT and MDT II. So shields and PDT work more like MDT and vallation/valliance's interaction. Which btw, used together can reduce magic dmg by more than 87.5%. So this claim doesn't make a whole lot of sense with regards to how shield blocks work.
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Ragnarok.Martel said: » Rostein said: » Ragnarok.Martel said: » 68% PDT + an Ochain shield block(66%) is a -89.12% dmg reduction. Phalanx to 0 dmg. Haven't done super rigorous tests, but did a few and I'm almost sure that, just like with Aegis' mdt, you cant go above 87,5 pdt when adding the shields reduction to your dt set. (which would make Priwen worse than expected I guess) Maybe this is old news but anyway :o Shield blocks are a separate term from PDT. They are not additive like MDT and MDT II. So shields and PDT work more like MDT and vallation/valliance's interaction. Which btw, used together can reduce magic dmg by more than 87.5%. So this claim doesn't make a whole lot of sense with regards to how shield blocks work. I don't know if it makes sense or not, I'm just stating what I saw, so yeah I might be wrong about the 87.5 thing and it just seemed like that was what was happening when I tested different shields, but unless I understand everything wrong about how shields work (which can absolutely be the case) there's clearly a cap, otherwise when you equip srivatsa, being size 5 + 75 def + 6 SDB (8 according to bg and the japanese) you should hit 98%~100% damage reduction (with empy hands you should hit 100% for sure), and thats clearly not what I saw in the numbers. I don't play anymore so I can't test it again, and I never saved the data, because I did it just for myself because I was curious. Now if you tell me that everything I said is wrong, and tell me why it is wrong or how it really works, all the better for me, I'd rather understand how stuff works even if it means I look like an ignorant for a few posts in a forum and I apologize if I spreaded any misinformation on what I wrote. You can block for 0 dmg. The dmg redux from a block isnt part of the PDT MDT BDT DT terms. So if you're reducing the damage you take low enough, the shield can negate the rest.
Rostein said: » Ragnarok.Martel said: » Rostein said: » Ragnarok.Martel said: » 68% PDT + an Ochain shield block(66%) is a -89.12% dmg reduction. Phalanx to 0 dmg. Haven't done super rigorous tests, but did a few and I'm almost sure that, just like with Aegis' mdt, you cant go above 87,5 pdt when adding the shields reduction to your dt set. (which would make Priwen worse than expected I guess) Maybe this is old news but anyway :o Shield blocks are a separate term from PDT. They are not additive like MDT and MDT II. So shields and PDT work more like MDT and vallation/valliance's interaction. Which btw, used together can reduce magic dmg by more than 87.5%. So this claim doesn't make a whole lot of sense with regards to how shield blocks work. I don't know if it makes sense or not, I'm just stating what I saw, so yeah I might be wrong about the 87.5 thing and it just seemed like that was what was happening when I tested different shields, but unless I understand everything wrong about how shields work (which can absolutely be the case) there's clearly a cap, otherwise when you equip srivatsa, being size 5 + 75 def + 6 SDB (8 according to bg and the japanese) you should hit 98%~100% damage reduction (with empy hands you should hit 100% for sure), and thats clearly not what I saw in the numbers. I don't play anymore so I can't test it again, and I never saved the data, because I did it just for myself because I was curious. Now if you tell me that everything I said is wrong, and tell me why it is wrong or how it really works, all the better for me, I'd rather understand how stuff works even if it means I look like an ignorant for a few posts in a forum and I apologize if I spreaded any misinformation on what I wrote. So, if PDT and shield blocks have a joint cap that only allows dmg to be reduced by 87.5% max, then any shield test with a large dmg reduction shield and capped PDT should show less damage reduction on block than would be expected of the shield in question, since it would be hitting the proposed cap. Thus, if I have a test with 50% PDT, that still shows the full dmg reduction on the shield in effect, it should contradict the cap hypothesis.  This is one of my old Aegis tests. Way back when I recorded as many factors about each test as I felt was reasonable, because I didn't know for certain what factors affected everything. Thus this test notes the PDT used. 50%. If you look at the highlighted cell, you can see that the on block dmg reduction for this test was 81%. The known value for Aegis. This was not a manually entered value, but a number derived from the difference between the average unblocked hit and the average blocked hit. You can see the formula used in the formula bar at the top of the image. Now, lets do some math. The avg unblocked hit was 76.84 with 50% PDT. This means that before pdt the damage would have been 153.68. If we use our current PDT and shield block model, then we would do. base * PDT * Block. 153.68 * 0.5 * 0.19 = 14.59. This is extremely close to the observed avg blocked hit of 14.54. And since we never actually observe non integer dmg values, I should probably be flooring during each step of the calculations as SE likely does. So just 14. Now, it's obvious at this point that block dmg- and PDT reductions are not additive. We'd already be capped. But what about the total multiplicative reduction? Are we going beyond a 87.5% reduction here? So, if we took the pre-PDT base of 153.68 and apply an 87.5% reduction.. 153.68*0.125 = 19.21. But our observed blocked hit avg is 14.54 Thus we are reducing the damage by more than 87.5%. If you calculate the total dmg reduction using the base and and final dmg you get a 90.5388% reduction. If you calculate the total reduction using 50% PDT and 81% block dmg reduction you get 90.5% total dmg reduction. These are spot on. So while were aren't going past 87.5% by much we are without a doubt able to surpass this proposed cap. Srivatsa + Burtgang PDT would have made for a more extreme example, but I never made Srivatsa, and didn't really feel like retesting anyway. I think the data and explanations here should be more than sufficient to show that the current PDT/shield interaction model is correct.
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I think, Martel, a simple formula would help alleviate the confusion.
According to my understanding, the reduction rate formula is: [DamageTaken] x [1 - 0.tPDT] x [1 - 0.(ShieldSizeRed) - 0.(ShieldDEF/2) - 0.(tSDB)] I think Rostein's confusion is the additive part of the shield size, shield DEF, and the Shield Defense bonus... which for Srivasta would be -75%(size5) - 75/2% - 8% for a naked 99 PLD, for a total of -120%. (so a -100% damage on every blocked hit)
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While I think your basic formula there is sound, those Srivatsa numbers are really off.
size 5 base dmg reduction is 55%. 75% is what aegis has after shield def, but before 99PLD SDB. So using Aegis since it's a well known and massively tested example. Size5Base+(shieldDef/2)+SDB 55=(40/2)+6 = 81 I'm aware that BGwiki, and JP wiki both have 99 PLD SDB as 8 at 99. They're wrong. I have tens of thousands of hits of test data that all line up with 6 SDB at 99. Either that or all the shield size base dmg- values are off by -2. But that makes no sense and those values were tested before SDB was even a thing. So, if we redo this for Srivatsa; 55+(75/2)+6=98.5 Now, I've never been able to determine with any certainty if the block reduction value can be anything but a whole number. So the .5 may need to be floored. Really hard to tell a 0.5% difference. Damn physical dmg randomizer. So we have either 98% or 98.5%. Assuming there's not a cap on block dmg reduction, then you should be able to hit 100% with any of the available SDB gear. I will note, the highest block dmg- shield I can recall testing was Priwen at 88.5%. So I can't excluded the possibly of there being block dmg reduction cap that's higher than that value. I guess if I ever join another Aeonic run I could make Srivatsa and test this.
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I believe it has also been confirmed that Founder's Breastplate's effect also is a separate reduction, and allows us to further surpass the 87.5% DT cap.
You can also further show the extremity of these effects by stacking on Shield Def Bonus effects. Chozor. Coselete and Chev +1 gauntlets would give another 6%. Ragnarok.Martel said: » 75% is what aegis has after shield def, but before 99PLD SDB. soralin said: » I believe it has also been confirmed that Founder's Breastplate's effect also is a separate reduction, and allows us to further surpass the 87.5% DT cap. Which is the case with Founder's Breastplate. (SDT is multiplicative with DT just like Valliance/Vallation and shield reduction. Which all may have a cap, but isnt' a part of the DT cap.)
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Bahamut.Alexcennah said: » Shiva.Humpo said: » Give PLD Foil. Hmm.. Well, I'm happy you knew why I said it, but also very sad that I didn't think of it first! Shichishito said: » 5 pages of discussion when the solution is so obvious  If that is main hand, Totally using BrO-chain in offhand!
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Shichishito said: » 5 pages of discussion when the solution is so obvious Ah!, A wonderful summary of the importance of the underlying premise. I always wanted to be able to use Ochain and Calad for VIT stacking
Shichishito said: » 5 pages of discussion when the solution is so obvious this combo is basically Archer from Fate/stay night... Sylph.Brahmsz said: » Also, Flashga. Just Do it SE! assuming its in reference to the +20 acc the job point category gives which isnt listed in the desc of it iirc.
Ahh, well. PLD gets the same thing anyway. The enlight job points add to the en-dmg and acc.
well yeah, but the endark one says: "Increase damage and physical attack by 1" but it also gives +1 acc per point in the category, hence hidden. Itd be like if enlight gave +20 atk without mentioning it
Ahh, I get what you mean. Now I'm goign to have to go cast enlight II and see if I'm getting any unlisted bonuses... I don't expect any, but the there have been a lot of parallels between enlight/endark and reprisal/dread spikes.
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Just following up on this idea. There doesn't seem to be a hidden bonus of any sort that I can find on 20/20 JP Enlight II. Getting the expected +140 acc at 560 skill and 20/20 JP. No increase in atk. Or anything else easily observable. Not surprising, but was worth checking for.
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Nariont said: » assuming its in reference to the +20 acc the job point category gives which isnt listed in the desc of it iirc. Yes, sorry. I keep thinking the Endark II hidden accuracy bonus is common knowledge. Nariont said: » well yeah, but the endark one says: "Increase damage and physical attack by 1" but it also gives +1 acc per point in the category, hence hidden. Itd be like if enlight gave +20 atk without mentioning it Edit: Double checked and it is infact only +20 Accuracy. Mind you... this was back when People were still screaming "nerf BLU" because 2Handers (ie WAR+DRK) had really horrible accuracy and that +20 felt like a lifesaver. Ahhh.. 2013~2016. What a long time ago... Ragnarok.Martel said: » Ahh, I get what you mean. Now I'm goign to have to go cast enlight II and see if I'm getting any unlisted bonuses... I don't expect any, but the there have been a lot of parallels between enlight/endark and reprisal/dread spikes. Be interesting to find out. Keep us posted. Nariont said: » well yeah, but the endark one says: "Increase damage and physical attack by 1" but it also gives +1 acc per point in the category, hence hidden. Itd be like if enlight gave +20 atk without mentioning it Too bad pld doesn't have mirror opposite abilities of drk.
Like a last resort but instead of +atk/-def and job haste its +def/-atk and job haste while with shield.
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