Chango VS Ukonvasara !!!

in a t4 melee you are going to use MS. and ukon is really bad for MS. 0 augment zulf beats r15 ukon in a MS dps battle.
In reisenjima T1-t3 are all about the same. Pop, smash, next. geo cor bard whm DDx2 and they all max at about 50 seconds, Maju is in a weird category.. No need to mess around with pre TP. THat leaves t4 reis WOC and Kirin. You are going to Prebuff and MAYBE pre TP. You are also going to MS zerg those. And most of the T4 are done during 1 MS spam. Then the random months ambu? If you want to build a weapon that is solid every couple of months for ambu. go for it, make ukon. Or put in a lot less work and make a weapon that is better for almost all months ambu. Next year during qutrub you will be a monster in ambu with ukon. The other 11 months chango will win probably atleast 10 of them.

Last thing about 1hr. Few months ago I was playing with idea of Ukon 1hr and I came up with this.

ItemSet 364122

With both 1hr up, it should reach 10k DPS with just white damage. Probably still behind other options focused on WS (you can make 3hit build for Chango with Brazen up and just do WS>round>WS>round and that would probably win by far with Warcry up too). But it woudl still be amazing to see those white damage. AM hits would do around 13k damage, so up to 26k damage per round :)

You are repeating what you already said, and I read and acknowledge all of your points.

I listed 1 T4 that's not going to die in 1 MS if you carry buyers or new players. That is schah. Afaik if you can not kill it before adds pop, that 1 min fight will turn into 15-20min fight going through all adds.

If you carry 3-4 buyers in alliance inflating HP, fat chance is that it's not going to die before adds pop. That's one situation that mob doesn't die in 1 MS.

Even then, in a best case scenario for WAR empy, you're still gonna be worse than all of the 1h/H2H empys that every group will prefer for that month.

EDIT: Or probably also worse than a Farsha (which I always forget WAR can even use) Fencer build, if we're talking quirky WAR options.

I'm no expert on it, but if we're dead set on talking about potential WAR Empy uses... does Farsha have more overall utility than Ukon? At least it adds something more unique in a strong magical WS option, which perhaps gives it some more possible niche uses? Ukon doesn't really have that, since its value proposition seems to be "another 2h physical damage weapon... but worse than several other options (unless you don't WS)".

This is absolutely false. We went with empy war for that month and the highest dps I've see on scoreboard was 28k. Most good MNK NIN empy DNC float between 20k to 24k and your avg bandwagon heishi nin was usually 15k or even 7 to 8k only.

War won parse against mnk, nin, empy dnc, empy cor in every single pt I've been and died the least.

The amount of biased opinion from people in these thread with no facts to back it up and just make assumptions is a little ridiculous....

I don't think the bias is that bad.

People are literally brainstorming times when Ukon may beat Chango.

Nobody is talking about SC damage, very little warcry talk and TP overflow has been placed into a hold pattern.

If you had to pick a single R15 GA everything points to Chango.

Okay but seriously. Ukon looks so much better than Chango.

gimme whatever you're smoking; Chango looks hawt af, best looking axe model

Chango looks like a mix between a dumb pizza cutter or that thing you use to descale fish.

Actually Chango looks like a cross between something you could use to fan a pharaoh and a bottle opener for the 4th of July.
But I still love mine!

It's more about the wordings. If people use more wordings like "chango are more likely to win parse against ukon because they don't have to manage AM3" or "imo Ukon isnt worth the effort because its expensive", or even what you said about chango being the best choice if you can only pick one, I will 100% agree.

But this wasn't what's discussed nor anyone even made statement like this. People used statements like "Ukon suck" (no context)
Or "Ukon is worse than other 1h empy in white dmg ambu month"( false according to parse). I don't encourage it.

Either way, the discussion wasn't "what Rema should I build if I can only get one". So people really went off topic imo.

Chango to me has always looked like it was modeled after an inverted Piranha's teeth/jaw structure

OP



Opinions

Wait, I said compared to 1h/H2H EMPYS for that fight... and you cited your experience versus 4 examples, only 1 of which fit my criteria of a 1h/H2H Empy:

1)"empy dnc" - OK, that's a 1h Empy. Kinda surprises me that a DNC (or THF) would actually lose to WAR in that scenario, especially with the DNC making good use of Saber Dance, WS (evisceration tore that mob up, IIRC), and maybe tossing in some Feather Steps for even more AM3 crit powa... but if you say that's what you experienced I'll take your word for it, for argument's sake.

2) "empy cor" - that's a gun, not a 1h/h2h Empy. And really, COR is a pseudo-DPS in many instances (i.e., stuff where Leaden isn't OP) so not that surprising to see it lose to a pure heavy DD in WAR (and yes, this is totally ignoring the huge benefit rolls bring to the table for the party which are a compelling reason to bring a COR anyway). That being said, Gandiva or Armageddon RNG should do better than COR for that circumstance thanks to better Empy white damage (hi Dead Aim AM3 crits).

3) "mnk" - where you didn't mention that it was using Verethragna (while explicitly calling out that the cor dnc used Empy), soooo... not a 1h/h2h Empy? If the MNKs weren't using Vere, um... yeah, not surprising if Ukon WAR beat them in your runs since Empy is MASSIVELY relevant to this scenario. Which is why I said 1h/H2H EMPY.

4) "nin" - again, no mention it was using Kannagi, so not a 1h/h2h Empy?

Whatever YOUR experience was, in *my* personal experience, Kannagi NIN and Vere MNK (and that was before the h2h accuracy/impetus buff) owned that Ambu month over anything I saw them go up against, and I'd be surprised to see them lose out to Ukon WAR. Tauret DNC THF might be in the mix now too. Admittedly, I think I (barely) recall playing with only one Ukon WAR there and it would have been a stranger who I don't really know how good they were (cuz I don't play with any regular friends who have 119 Ukon). But it doesn't really make much sense to me that the Ukon WAR should win that battle (unless you can explain things by something like you going with a great Empy WAR and mediocre Empy NINs and Empy MNKs).

But hey, if you can really prove that Ukon WAR is as good as you say it is in that fight over the other more popular choices among the general playerbase (who were pretty comfortable with stuff like MNK NIN THF that month - though I'm aware that popularity and general acceptance is not always correct)... then cool, there's one Ambuscade where the weapon is worth it!

Not that it's something we really need to go into detail about, but we also really don't know the parameters of your Ambu runs... so we have to take your word for your claimed parses being gospel, without knowing much about said parses. For instance, it's obviously relevant if you were only doing VD with Mighty Strikes versus people doing multiple consecutive D runs without relying on 1hrs, if we're comparing MS Ukon white damage WAR (suuuuuper-niche situation) to something like NIN DNC MNK


You've gotta be freaking kidding me to assert WAR would be lower risk of death than NIN in that fight. Shadows and Migawari should make any non-braindead NIN a substantially safer bet than a WAR. This kind of illogical comment actually makes me more skeptical of your overall point, since it seems like you're making unreasonable arguments in favor of Ukon to support your view.


Also, going back to one of your points on last page since you seem pretty concerned about what the original argument was... Who (other than you) ever said the original argument was "to compare dps generation on scoreboard when both are being used optimally"?

Naw, man, you're all wrong. Lycurgos/Himthige are WAY better looking than either Chango or Ukon.

Hell, I even like Bravura model more than Chango or Ukon. Conq looks stupid tho - least fashionable GA.

Agreed. Chango has a really cool color palette tho. I'm not a fan of Lycurgos' colors either, Himthige looks better imo.

I personally rock a Svarga, and Balestarius is also cool (not sure if it shares a model with other). Rest is meh. Ukon is not even an axe, it's a hammer and it's ugly D:

Ukon is perhaps the ugliest good weapon in the game. I personally think the blurred GA looks coolest.

You guys are all delirious. Twashtar is obviously the best Empy of them all. I get to tear it up with a friggin cake slicer! Beats the heck out of your fish scalper.

@Capuchin


Sorry I couldn't be more clear with last post cuz I typed them at work.

The origional argument that I refer to was not the one who started the thread. It was SimonSes's.

He posted math, and set, saying "this build and playstyle with Ukon can do X dps on paper." And I am personally curious if that's is true in parse since we had ukon debate for years and no spreadsheet/math can convince anyone even if they are posted. It's really just a yes no question.

So yeah, when conversation dragged to the direction that become more of a "I think it's not good in X scenario" or "I think chango is a better if you can only build one", it's not directly answering SimonSes's question.

Only Spaintin go out and actually test it(which I appreciate, btw). But his test didn't include any data like dps/WS avg/white dmg avg and it was also mixed his opinion about scenerio wouldn't exist either. So it's still hard to analyze if Ukon dps in real parse can match theorycraft dps.

Either way, I feel it's pretty off topic since it didn't address the origional theorycraft dps-a yes/no question.

As far As your opinion on best job for that ambu. I had my opinion based on what I've seen, and so do you. I have no intention to keep arguing about it because it's kinda silly.

However I did post the parse dps from ukon which was 20k to 28k. 28k being the highest Ive seen out of all jobs.
As empy THF LoH posted his dps on scoreboard in the discussion for that month, which was 24k with perfect dodge(which increases dps without shadow recast) on. The dps observed on scoreboard should be used as a base if people want to argue about it.

In this entire discussion debating job/weapon v.s each other in specific content, SimonSes posted math and I have the numbers from scoreboard to back up my claim rather than arguing emotions endlessly.

If you ever notice MNK NIN or whatever job hit much higher than 28k dps on scoreboard in that specific fight, post it. Then I'll take the evidence as a proof of Ukon war isn't as good. Otherwise I make my judgement based on real numbers: either parses or theorycraft dps. And I prefer not to make judgements based on "I think it's better because....." kind of statement. Which is all you are making atm.


You are free to make such statement, I never said you cant post opinions. my point is that it's just not strong enough to convince everybody atm. I doubt SimonSes is 100% convinced himself if he still has plans to build one and try it himself.

Edit: I also did not claim WAR is safer than NIN. I Only said the war that I pt with die less often than everyone else. I was making a statement about experience, not an universal fact or something. Please stop reading my statements all wrong.

R15 Farsha in a party set up with DNC (twash main) GEO COR BARD WHM is actually very good. It beat ukon DPS in that set up, but total party dps was down a touch.

I don't understand that at all. DNC in aprty should favor Gaxe not axe, because samba allows you to cap haste with Gaxe. So why would Farsha be better in this setup and not everywhere else? Unless you trying to say you was single wielding Farsha and samba let you keep almost capped haste? What WS you was using on Farsha then? Cloudsplitter with Malaise? What was Farhsa and Ukon DPS in that party?

That is true. Unless someone will beat me to it and post a detailed parse.

He was referring to ambu with dmg inflation so all ws will do 99999. What matters is white dmg per round.

R15 ukon is D352 with 3.95 pdif cap before trait.

Farsha is D201 plus half of your swings will not do am3 because am3 doesnt apply to offhand. With 3.45 pdif cap before trait.

Do the math, and x10 for dmg inflation. Ukon will do WAY more white dmg than farsha per round.



There are a lot of envidence showing people are biased in this entire discussion for years, many anti ukon statement simply doesnt match math/parse result/video with weapon comparsions that we have.
Saying Farsha doing more white dmg than ukon doesnt make math sense to me either, unless Im missing something outside of JA haste.

I feel theres confirmation bias going on....people are dead set that weapon is not worth it(which is probably true for its cost), so they look for every opportunity to talk about the disadvantage of it. Occassionally make statements that biased toward the other side, such as Farsha > Ukon for white dmg. Information like that isnt objective and shouldnt be used.

Edit:I cant read wiki and forgot about pdif trait. Corrected pdif.

Just slight correction. Its 3.95 pdif for ukon and 3.45 for Farsha. War has only PDLII and no PDL on neck.

Also I still think he was talking about single wielding, because DNC is irrelevant for DW setup on WAR while its needed for single wielding. Fencer gives solid crit rate bonus too. Ukonvasara has 5% EDIT: I forgot about pdif XD Its 19% dps advantage over Farsha in that scenario looking at just base damage with capped fstr, but its harder for ukon to cap fstr. Crit rate from fancer probably wont close the gap between those weapons white damage.

Farsha was used only on neak. Never tried it on qutrub month. Was using fencer build and did prefight Cloudsplitter and spammed Mistral axe during the fight as fast as possible (was like 39k WS average). Had a pretty similar white damage build to ukon. Dnc did rudra storm to get AG up (5% crit) and feather step. Mistral axe is like a slightly weaker version of of savage blade. The war was also the tank, so retaliation TP was pretty useful. According to Saevels short test. He had like an 80%+ retaliation rate for fencer builds. So maybe that is what pushed it so far. Only did the fight like 8 times with farsha. This was all done a few weeks back when we farmed 50k beads on T3 in reisenjima.
WSD was much higher, white damage was lower. I hesitate to give numbers out of memory though, only stating which weapons won.

Well this is actually a cool idea of making Fencer build viable, but if you pair DNC with Ukonvasara WAR, then white damage wont be similar. Feather step works also for Ukon and haste samba helps cap last 1.25% haste. That + higher pdif would make Ukon win easily with white damage. Now overall DPS when you add WS damage, I can really believe Farsha winning.

Hmmm, wouldn't that make Farsha best DPS weapon for WAR when paired with Haste Samba then? It would have way higher white damage than Chango, same TP generation and same or higher WS damage? (Upheaval with R15 Chango avg more than 39k when you spam? I don't think it does)

upheaval was averaging somewhere around 46k on neak with more frequency on chango. Boost vit entrust vit etc.
The farhsa party dps was pretty weak compared to basically ALL of the other set ups. DNC and WAR are not as good as WAR+WAR

To put it in perspective, against this months ambu outisde of escha while facing the mob. I average ususally 41k. Including the mobs guarding with chango upheaval.

Obviously both had warcry up the entire time.

I think I found the reason why your Chango always win and your Resolution build is that high. Outside of escha Warcry will be up 20% (unless you merit it over Berserk) of a time and in case of event like Dynamis, some of that will be lost between pulls/switching mobs. It's not really realistic. It's like I would test DNC having Climactic up for every Neak. Twashtar/Centovente would destroy everything by miles with 2x 80-90k Rudras at start.

well the reasoning is pretty simple. Why wouldnt you have warcry up in a high buff situation? If you are going to go through the trouble to get 3k TP and THEN get AMIII before the fight and THEN 3k TP again. You can easily pop a super revit and smash. Perhaps the single best buff in the entire game. we did have climactic up in the beginning with dnc. still had war winning. In dynamis sure. I honestly dont put any value in dynamis D parses. WAYYYY to many things that skew the parse. Targeting time is a big giant pain. Debuffs geo bubbles being outside of range. THen you have the wave three boss. that almost would work. But the adds popping ruin the parse for that. And again you run into the entire buffs wearing issue. can it be done? sure. I have never seen it done where I would call it a usable parse.


Have you been talking optimal DPS this entire time and NOT including warcry? Why wouldnt you use climactic EVERY fight to test DNC OPTIMAL DPS?

Overall i came up with a pretty simple conclusion. With warcry up, WS builds beat the white damage builds handily. And why WOULDNT you have warcry up? Because of farming KI and wait times, you will always start with warcry for ambu. If you are going to pre TP using wings is escha, you are going to have super revits as well. Farsha seemed to be in bit of an oddplace though, same with dolichinus. On dynamis it MIGHT be about as good as non warcry WS spam. Volte mobs take like 20 seconds to kill. What other commonly completed content is there?

I love reso, but it has its issues. To deal ideal DPS you need some argosy gear ( love getting 1 shot). and the -15% attack penalty is a bit of a pain on higher end content.

Warcry is 100% worth 5 merits now too.