Luck Of The Draw: A Corsair's Guide *NEW*

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Luck of the Draw: A Corsair's Guide *NEW*
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By Afania 2020-05-03 10:09:33
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Bahamut.Minimuse said: »
When I know I am going to be in a less than optimal alliance, with half of the alliance playing secondary jobs, I'll offhand one of the Rostams for the extra 12 DT. That offhanded Rostam is enough to keep me alive during a mijin if I'm not in my WS set.

You only need 1 rostam to cap mijin damage reduction. 12 from rostam + 10 MDT from back = 22 MDT. Since whm update shell V is always 29% damage reduction afaik.
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By SimonSes 2020-05-03 12:10:09
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Afania said: »
Bahamut.Minimuse said: »
When I know I am going to be in a less than optimal alliance, with half of the alliance playing secondary jobs, I'll offhand one of the Rostams for the extra 12 DT. That offhanded Rostam is enough to keep me alive during a mijin if I'm not in my WS set.

You only need 1 rostam to cap mijin damage reduction. 12 from rostam + 10 MDT from back = 22 MDT. Since whm update shell V is always 29% damage reduction afaik.

Afaik most people using 10pdt or 5dt on capes. Of course you can make both but I assume Mini just dont have it.
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By Afania 2020-05-03 12:20:58
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SimonSes said: »
Afania said: »
Bahamut.Minimuse said: »
When I know I am going to be in a less than optimal alliance, with half of the alliance playing secondary jobs, I'll offhand one of the Rostams for the extra 12 DT. That offhanded Rostam is enough to keep me alive during a mijin if I'm not in my WS set.

You only need 1 rostam to cap mijin damage reduction. 12 from rostam + 10 MDT from back = 22 MDT. Since whm update shell V is always 29% damage reduction afaik.

Afaik most people using 10pdt or 5dt on capes. Of course you can make both but I assume Mini just dont have it.

I find having both then swap depending on content is more useful than only having 5 DT "universal" back, 5 is in a range that doesn't quite make much of a difference and hard to cap anything. 10 is often the difference between capped in sets or not.

If there's only one choice due to inv issues IMO MDT is a better choice for Cor. Mostly because shadows block majority of physical TP moves, and COR has the option to /NIN. For other DD jobs I can see PDT being the better option.
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By SimonSes 2020-05-03 12:36:11
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Afania said: »
My point has always been everything is situational, always change sets/playstyle depending on situation. You guys are the one who post multiple times and listed situations that doesn't favor it, and made endlessly argument that only 1 playstyle is legit because [insert your problems]. This is super biased, and irrelevant to the discussion. Pretty anti-FFXI too, since FFXI is all about changing gears depending on situation.

I just don't get the point.

My point was that there are scenarios where full timing mali hybrid as tp set has no negative impact on dps because that 10% is countered by not losing dps from debuffs. I never said to full time mali all the time. Its normal that if there is no debuff to be resisted you shouldnt full time meva. Im just dont like when people showcase that switching to meva hybrid is always 10% dps loss, because its only that much if it wont make you resist even one debuff. You recognize using haste samba as dps loss and thats 1 sec ability delay and (i didnt even realized that) its a TP GAIN not loss, because you get 3 tp more base per hit. That easily make up for 350 tp you lose and actually gives back a lot more than that. So all you lose to keep haste samba is 1 sec ability delay every 80+ sec. So thats dps loss you notice, but thats LESS than being paralyzed even one round for that 80 sec.
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By Afania 2020-05-03 12:49:49
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SimonSes said: »
My point was that there are scenarios where full timing mali hybrid as tp set has no negative impact on dps because that 10% is countered by not losing dps from debuffs. I never said to full time mali all the time.

Ok, so you made a ***tons of posts calling me "fell into the same trap", while making a point that was never part of the discussion.

None were saying that getting hit with debuffs aren't DPS loss. They were only asking if malig should be full timed.

Why do you even brought this up if NOBODY was making such argument?

Can't blame me if I think you have reading comprehension issues.

SimonSes said: »
Im just dont like when people showcase that switching to meva hybrid is always 10% dps loss, because its only that much if it wont make you resist even one debuff.

I was discussing math, but you want to discuss playstyle. You can open a new discussion instead of repeatly moving goal posts when I was never trying to discuss playstyle to begin with.


SimonSes said: »
You recognize using haste samba as dps loss and thats 1 sec ability delay and (i didnt even realized that) its a TP GAIN not loss, because you get 3 tp more base per hit. That easily make up for 350 tp you lose and actually gives back a lot more than that.

"DPS loss" in a way that it affects DPS in real gameplay, less about actual math behind it.

I already know /DNC has higher dps on paper if samba is up. In real gameplay putting up samba can be the difference between doing 4 WS in a zerg before the NM dies or 5. And that 1 WS difference becomes noticable on parses.

Hence why I often don't /DNC unless NM mechanics greatly favor it. Theres much higher risk that Id do less DPS in the end. And yes, I've parsed both SJ and found that NIN often parse better because of wide variety of reasons.

I don't see how debuffs are relevant in this discussion, 2 different things.
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By Aquatiq 2020-05-03 12:56:52
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afania literally posted what we need to know to make our own educated decisions on what to use in a fight. which item sets deal what kind of damage? this is the kind of ***that's annoying to figure out, not what the boss's mechanics/debuffs are. it's up to us to decide if it's worth it. maybe just take something at face for once
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By SimonSes 2020-05-03 12:59:05
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Its relevant because for meva set you use math and call it dps loss because it is dps loss on paper and real scenario gains from reaisting debuffs are playstyle difference. Now for haste samba you use math and even its not dps loss you call it dps loss because it might be dps loss in real scenario? How is that not a double standard lol.
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By Afania 2020-05-03 13:13:33
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SimonSes said: »
Its relevant because for meva set you use math and call it dps loss because it is dps loss on paper and real scenario gains from reaisting debuffs are playstyle difference. Now for haste samba you use math and even its not dps loss you call it dps loss because it might be dps loss in real scenario? How is that not a double standard lol.


This is silly, 2 different argument, 2 different discussions. I'm not sure why are you putting them together just because you feel like arguing all day.

My point on malig set has always been "swap in hybrid set when you need it". It doesn't apply to sub job choices because we can't just swap SJ in the content.

So I see ZERO reason why you try to attack me for having double standards. My original point can't even apply to sub job choices.

Or is "everything is situational" something you simply can't comprehend?


SimonSes said: »
Its relevant because for meva set you use math and call it dps loss because it is dps loss on paper and real scenario gains from reaisting debuffs are playstyle difference.

But I wasn't talking about playstyle, I can't make decisions on EVERYONE else's playstyle. I was talking about math and only math to begin with. You are the one who continue to add playstyle to the discussion which I have zero intention to continue on.
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By geigei 2020-05-03 13:15:59
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Afania said: »
I already know /DNC has higher dps on paper if samba is up. In real gameplay putting up samba can be the difference between doing 4 WS in a zerg before the NM dies or 5.
Are we fighting to kill the nm or to win the parse?
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By Afania 2020-05-03 13:18:27
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geigei said: »
Afania said: »
I already know /DNC has higher dps on paper if samba is up. In real gameplay putting up samba can be the difference between doing 4 WS in a zerg before the NM dies or 5.
Are we fighting to kill the nm or to win the parse?

Did I ever say you shouldn't kill the NM with a different SJ? Does /NIN suddenly stop you from killing the NM?

More people missing the point it seems?
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By geigei 2020-05-03 13:21:39
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Afania said: »
geigei said: »
Afania said: »
I already know /DNC has higher dps on paper if samba is up. In real gameplay putting up samba can be the difference between doing 4 WS in a zerg before the NM dies or 5.
Are we fighting to kill the nm or to win the parse?

Did I ever say you shouldn't kill the NM with a different SJ? Does /NIN suddenly stop you from killing the NM?

More people missing the point it seems?

I'm just curious about that particular phrase, you rather not going /dnc and give everyone 5% haste because you might ws less and lose parse?
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By geigei 2020-05-03 13:25:11
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I'm asking cause i'm alway /nin and always fulltime malig, i 5box and i'm lazy.
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By Afania 2020-05-03 13:30:18
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geigei said: »
Afania said: »
geigei said: »
Afania said: »
I already know /DNC has higher dps on paper if samba is up. In real gameplay putting up samba can be the difference between doing 4 WS in a zerg before the NM dies or 5.
Are we fighting to kill the nm or to win the parse?

Did I ever say you shouldn't kill the NM with a different SJ? Does /NIN suddenly stop you from killing the NM?

More people missing the point it seems?

I'm just curious about that particular phrase, you rather not going /dnc and give everyone 5% haste because you might ws less and lose parse?

So your argument was still "DPS" rather than killing the NM no?

The only job that would benefit from 5% haste is 2h warrior. And there's no proof that they would gain more damage than 37k extra damage from 1 more WS, or the DPS loss from Cor due to the lack of shadows.

Ultimately I find the benefit of /DNC is incredibly small unless mechanics greatly favors it. Any DPS /DNC adds are likely be offset by the lack of shadows and lower WS frequency from cor, to the point that it's not worth it.

If content resists geomancy or setting up SC then I can see /DNC worth it. Otherwise it's certainly not the difference between killing the NM or not.

Edit: also have to point out, the fact that DNC needs samba up/down TP set and maintain at least 2-3 different JA also make my overall performance drop because it became harder to pay attention to NM mechanics since I don't automate anything. It's easier to pay attention to less things.
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By SimonSes 2020-05-03 13:39:41
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Afania said: »
lower WS frequency from cor

How? You have more tp per hit with /dnc with the same speed. How is that lower ws frequency >.>
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By Asura.Bippin 2020-05-03 14:08:03
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Cause you put up haste samba?
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By SimonSes 2020-05-03 14:27:31
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Asura.Bippin said: »
Cause you put up haste samba?

Haste samba costs you 350tp and 1-2s of ja delay per 90 sec. So maybe a 1000tp total (This is assuming you dont actually have forced brakes between group of mobs for example in which case it costs 0s ja delay because you put it outaide of fight). You get 3 tp base more per hit. You do like 4 hit per round with at least +100 store tp. Thats like 24tp tp more per round. You melee for like 60 out of 90 sec. With double rostam or something similar its around 47 rounds. Thats 1128tp more. In the end ws frequency will be about the same, but for sure not lower with /dnc. There is also small advantage of /dnc in hybrid set if you need to use it. /Nin with 10%dw cape and 68.75% haste is almost capped, while /dnc with 10%dw cape and 73.75% haste is truely capped. Difference is small (being truely capped is 1.5% faster here), but it exists and also counts. Now /dnc also has damage limit I trait which obviously favors it for savage blade setup because thats 3% stronger savage at capped attack. You also have free 10acc and 8% skillchain damage trait, so I dont see how /dnc dps can be called worse even for COR itself, not even going into overall gains for alliance or scenarios where box step would be be needed to cap attack.
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By Afania 2020-05-03 14:29:42
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SimonSes said: »
Afania said: »
lower WS frequency from cor

How? You have more tp per hit with /dnc with the same speed. How is that lower ws frequency >.>

I'm sick and tired of repeating myself after explained over and over because you refuse to read.

Spreadsheet doesn't factor NM HP, it only calculate DPS assuming you engage 1 NM with endless HP.

But your actual DPS/DPS CAN be affected by your target HP. Whatever spreadsheet tells you isn't always correct once target HP comes in.

That's also the reason why tact/Sam beats wiz/Sam on fodders despite spreadsheet says wiz/Sam has higher dps.


Id just stop here because someone as great as Baniak surely can figure out why.


SimonSes said: »
Asura.Bippin said: »
Cause you put up haste samba?

Haste samba costs you 350tp and 1-2s of ja delay per 90 sec. So maybe a 1000tp total. You get 3 tp base more per hit. You do like 4 hit per round with at least +100 store tp. Thats like 24tp tp more per round. You melee for like 60 out of 90 sec. With double rostam or something similar its around 47 rounds. Thats 1128tp more. In the end ws frequency will be about the same, but for sure not lower with /dnc. There is also small advantage of /dnc in hybrid set if you need to use it. /Nin with 10%dw cape and 68.75% haste is almost capped, while /dnc with 10%dw cape and 73.75% haste is truely capped. Difference is small (being truely capped is 1.5% faster here), but it exists and also counts.

None of what you wrote is relevant if mob dies before you gain all the lost DPS back.
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By SimonSes 2020-05-03 14:35:07
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No sorry I cant figure it out. If you dont fight one NM then its even more power to /dnc because you can put samba between mobs, so cost of samba is even less and would be easily even out and surpass by higher tp gain from more tp per hit.
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By SimonSes 2020-05-03 14:36:42
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Ok so you want to tell me that /dnc sucks because its worse for 20 sec zergs? Lol
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By Afania 2020-05-03 14:42:06
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SimonSes said: »
No sorry I cant figure it out. If you dont fight one NM then its even more power to /dnc because you can put samba between mobs, so cost of samba is even less and would be easily even out and surpass by higher tp gain from more tp per hit.

Not sure how you miss the point again. I said nothing about multi NM. I was talking about 1 NM that dies pretty fast.

It's not like multi NM matters anyways. I always have the choice to do something else between pulls, such as doing QDx2 for 1000 TP and another WS. So whatever you gain from it is still easily gone while getting stuck in samba animation.

As soon as you put up your 1st samba (and all the 10 STP loss sitting in a DW TP set before 1st samba up), you are already 1 WS behind, with how fast NM dies these days 1 less WS is probably 25% DPS loss when they die in 4 WS.
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By SimonSes 2020-05-03 14:47:57
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Holy ***. Who the *** cares about dps with single nm that dies before you can fire off 5th ws.. Not to mention you wouldnt ever use haste samba in fight then. You would pop it 20 sec before the fight would even start using eariler prepared tp or using eariler prepared finishing moves and reverse flourish. So you would start the fight with samba up and positive net tp gain already.
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By Afania 2020-05-03 14:59:46
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SimonSes said: »
Ok so you want to tell me that /dnc sucks because its worse for 20 sec zergs? Lol

Are you drunk? Missing the point again. It's the sum of everything.

Afania said: »
Ultimately I find the benefit of /DNC is incredibly small unless mechanics greatly favors it. Any DPS /DNC adds are likely be offset by the lack of shadows and lower WS frequency from cor, to the point that it's not worth it.

If content resists geomancy or setting up SC then I can see /DNC worth it. Otherwise it's certainly not the difference between killing the NM or not.

Edit: also have to point out, the fact that DNC needs samba up/down TP set and maintain at least 2-3 different JA also make my overall performance drop because it became harder to pay attention to NM mechanics since I don't automate anything. It's easier to pay attention to less things.

I flat out listed situations that it shines(when SC DMG and box step is relevant) so it's not like I ignored the benefit. and listed why the subjob often underperform in many situations for various reasons compare with NIN. More things to pay attention to, the lack of shadows means more DT and more risky, being forced to play a more defensive style more often and lose DPS, and NM often dies fast so 1 WS loss become very noticable.

I've parsed both SJ and on average, NIN often came out higher and more consistent in terms of dps because of the reasons listed. I'm not sure why do you feel like arguing that just because spreadsheet says DNC with Samba up gains X amount of TP per hit.

Oh and before you make another "hey, I made my point based on spreadsheet numbers so did you against malig gears". No they aren't the same. Malig set is just a set that applies to 1 specific scenerio. SJ choices is way more than that. The nature of set discussion has nothing to do with playstyle/preferences but SJ choice does.
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By Afania 2020-05-03 15:03:26
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SimonSes said: »
Holy ***. Who the *** cares about dps with single nm that dies before you can fire off 5th ws..

If you don't care, why are you here arguing dumb things and missing all the points?

I care about doing 1 less WS or 37k less damage than everyone else or /NIN version of myself. If you don't care, go play whatever you want and however you want as long as you are happy. Just don't try to convince people to change their mind if they prefer to do 1 more WS/25% more DPS in a fight. Why is it a sin to aim for more WS in a fight? It's *** silly.

I have 0 intention to argue with people who "doesn't care" about 1 WS DPS loss. Just go away already.

SimonSes said: »
Not to mention you wouldnt ever use haste samba in fight then. You would pop it 20 sec before the fight would even start using eariler prepared tp or using eariler prepared finishing moves and reverse flourish.

Not doable in Ambu nor many other content.
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By SimonSes 2020-05-03 15:22:21
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You are creating some fictional situation with some no name NM that dies in 20 sec, for which you cant prepare before fight and you say /dnc damage sucks based on not being able to compete in such scenario, but you call me out on saying that resisting debuffs is not dps gain but playstyle difference. Just lol. You keep saying Im missing points etc. but you are such inconsistence with your logic that ita hard to understand any of this lol

I dont care parse dps on 20 sec fight, because its totally random based. Like you noticed, one ws less can result in 25% dps loss and since your tp gain is totally random because of multi attack gear, you can do this fight doing 3 WSs once, then 5WSs another time, all with the same setup, which basically means that parsing good or bad in such short fight is just purely based on luck, so none should take it seriously.
Afania said: »
Not doable in Ambu nor many other content.

Which Ambuscade has single nm that dies in 20 sec for which you cant prepare tp and use haste samba before engage?
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By Afania 2020-05-03 15:47:56
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SimonSes said: »
You are creating some fictional situation with some no name NM that dies in 20 sec

I have countless parses that we show up having 4 - 5 total WS. So no, it isn't fictional.

SimonSes said: »
but you call me out on saying that resisting debuffs is not dps gain but playstyle difference. Just lol. You keep saying Im missing points etc. but you are such inconsistence with your logic that ita hard to understand any of this lol

The logic only seems inconsistent to you because you repeatedly missing the main point in the debate, or move goal posts. Then, after trying to remind you countless times you STILL fail to see it.

I never discuss playstyle difference when it comes to using resist sets. In fact when I compared set DPS I said absolutely nothing about resists nor debuffs. You were the one who brought this up because it's a debate from a different conversation.

So, if it seems inconsistent to you, it's nothing but your fault since you brought it up and changed the nature of the discussion, not I.


SimonSes said: »
I dont care parse dps on 20 sec fight, because its totally random based.

Ok, so you don't care, then why are you here arguing, while ignoring everything else I said about the sub job that's more than "1WS DPS loss"?

If RNG doesn't matter to you, then no point to even discuss anything, just go away. But I'm still going to work on eliminate the risk of RNG as much as possible, thank you. If I find myself parse higher with /NIN more frequently for reasons more than having a short fight, then there's no reason to change SJ regardless of what spreadsheet said.

You are just Saevel No.2 at this point, super fixated at one thing and one thing only, while completly ignoring every other points.
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By SimonSes 2020-05-03 16:08:26
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Lol Afania seriously. If you have countless parses then name that mysterious NM that can be zerged in 20 sec and is only NM in the event/instance and you cant prepare tp and use haste samba before you engage it.

I said I dont care about parse in 20 sec fight, while I arguing about your very general and wide statement

Afania said: »
I use /NIN 99.99% of time when I melee even if I don't need shadows. Honestly /DNC damage suck because of the lack of DW tier. Then you either have to use samba and lose DPS, or swap to DW Ambu back and lose DPS. /DNC just doesn't offer enough.

So please dont try to twist what I dont care about. If you would wrote that /DNC damage sucks for 20 sec zergs for which you cant prepare before engage which pretty much narrows this to like super small margin of whole endgame (tho I honestly still cant recall even one such scenario). You havent tho. Instead you said some opposite. So please explain to me how I am missing the point again.
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By Afania 2020-05-03 16:21:27
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SimonSes said: »
Lol Afania seriously. If you have countless parses then name that mysterious NM that can be zerged in 20 sec and is only NM in the event/instance and you cant prepare tp and use haste samba before you engage it.

I said I dont care about parse in 20 sec fight, while I arguing about your very general and wide statement

Afania said: »
I use /NIN 99.99% of time when I melee even if I don't need shadows. Honestly /DNC damage suck because of the lack of DW tier. Then you either have to use samba and lose DPS, or swap to DW Ambu back and lose DPS. /DNC just doesn't offer enough.

So please dont try to twist what I dont care about. If you would wrote that /DNC damage sucks for 20 sec zergs for which you cant prepare before engage which pretty much narrows this to like super small margin of whole endgame (tho I honestly still cant recall even one such scenario). You havent tho. Instead you said some opposite. So please explain to me how I am missing the point again.

You missed the point by quoting one single post(out of many) and called me biased, then when I added a few more reasons to support my pro /NIN argument you chose not to quote it on purpose, or flat out just don't read them.

Yup, thanks for ALSO missing the fact that I also said managing samba up/down set is DPS loss, losing shadows can be DPS loss and timing JA can also be DPS loss if I make mistakes. And on average that I parse lower /DNC because of all the reasons combined. It isn't that /DNC theorical max DPS ceiling is lower, but because it's harder to reach and maintain that DPS ceiling all the time.

Yup, I'm "generalizing" because the conclusion came from endlessly parse results and it's avg. Single out a few /DNC perks like "just get TP before engage" isn't enough to change that.

I can totally pick one single NM in game that favors /DNC and ended up parsing pretty well. It doesn't change the fact that after 10 or 100 fights my performance are more likely to decrease because all of the extra management required.

As usual, choice of words is all you care. Use a bad word Baniak doesn't approve he comes to hunt you down in next 10 pages.
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By SimonSes 2020-05-03 16:48:46
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Your only argument about /nin being better is parses and personal experience, instesd of math. For other things you use math over parses because you argue that you dont discuss playstyle differences. There is literally 0 math proofs supporting /nin as better dps subjob for cor in any scenario other than 20 sec zerg starting at 0 tp. Im done btw. Dont have time and battery to continue this.
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By Afania 2020-05-03 17:01:30
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SimonSes said: »
Your only argument about /nin being better is parses and personal experience, instesd of math. For other things you use math over parses because you argue that you dont discuss playstyle differences. There is literally 0 math proofs supporting /nin as better dps subjob for cor in any scenario other than 20 sec zerg starting at 0 tp. Im done btw. Dont have time and battery to continue this.


But there are no parse result to support that full timing resist set parse higher either. So whatever point that you brought it's just as fictional as my sub 1 min zerg stories.

I mean I TP in thaumas all the time, if I WS slower than another guy because debuffs hits me I'd see it myself and change my approach before you tell me to.

But nope, last "TP in thaumas" fight I did 5+ more WS than another guy so not gonna change. At least not until I see debuffs are causing WS frequency drop on parse. Multi hit all day everyday thank you.
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By Draylo 2020-05-03 17:27:06
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TP in Thaumas, wat
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