Skillchain Damage Build

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Skillchain Damage Build
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-12-14 09:45:19
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Was wondering if making a skillchain damage build is potentially better than stacking WSD in certain spots for multi-step. SAM gets a native 16% SCD + 8% from Gifts. Would only require 26% in gear to reach cap. So first WS = WSD set, second = SCD set, 3rd....and so on


Valorous Mask, Valorous Body, Valorous Greaves

STR +, Acc/Atk +, SCD + 5 (if using Taupe stones, which will allow a higher STR cap)

Valorous Mitts (already have +5 base)
STR +, Acc/Atk +, SCD +5

OR you could throw in Mujin Band if you wanted to put WSD on hands (would leave out Niqmaddu or Regal though).

The rest would be WSD gear, and would only put you 1 under the cap at 49% Skillchain Bonus. You'd sit at 28% WSD, which is much lower that what you'd normally WS at, but the end result is a higher Skillchain damage. Any advice on if this is practical or mostly a waste of time?
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-12-14 10:19:51
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consider that assuming you are having unresisted skillchains, 1% WSD is being counted twice (in the WS itself, and in the skillchain)

when considering, for example, going from 20% SCD to 30% SCD you see a boost of 1.3 / 1.2 = 8.3% real sc gain

going from 20% WSD to 25% wsd would get you 4.16% more ws damage, but also 4.16% more sc damage.. so it depends on the quantities and how much your base sc damage exceeds your ws damage

it'd almost certainly be better for the later steps of a multistep sc, but probably not worthwhile for a simple 2 step
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By clearlyamule 2017-12-14 12:43:16
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Should note that according to the skillchain page job trait/allies roll skillchain bonus and gear +skillchain dmg are separate multipliers.

Don't really see any references to that exactly or cap testing and the retesting post skillchain change had some incomplete data namely the whole elemental resistance/alignment values we now no so it might need some amount of retesting. Can't believe I hadn't thought about that when additional testing of the jp data came out.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-12-14 13:50:34
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Only reason it came to mind is because I was reading a DRG guide on wiki and it said when skillchaining, a SCB build is superior to anything else. Just made me think about SAM, since it gets so many native bonuses and gifts, and a good amount of gear, it might be worth having a set when closing multisteps.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-12-14 13:55:23
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it depends on what skillchain you're closing, what your ws gear looks like, how many steps you have, etc. It isn't as simple as just "always better to use sc gear."
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By clearlyamule 2017-12-14 14:03:59
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Also another thing to note is a lot of drg ws are multi hit which severely devalues wsd
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-12-14 14:10:46
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That's why I asked if it was better in certain spots of the sc.
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By clearlyamule 2017-12-14 14:28:56
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Just saying why the parallel doesn't work well. And just a reminder sams innate bonuses will devalue gearing like well most multipliers in this game.

Comeatmebro put some numbers but it can only do so much with what's given. If you want to do a very very simple comparison to which would increase just skillchain dmg the most it's a pretty simple comparison percent increase wsd will provide to the ws and what the scb will do for skillchain. Which would probably do you good enough since most the times you are even focusing on skillchains it's dmg should be the bulk of the dmg.

But for a full dmg comparison you'd need to compare skillchain to closing ws dmgs. Even with taking some stuff out because it wont change much you'd still need at least amounts of wsd for each, amounts of scb for each, skillchain level/step, mob mdt, and mob elemental resistance/what element skillchains, are you using rakye, inundation, or gambit? If it's a multistep skillchain you'll also need to need to know the elements of the previous skillchain. Oh and day/weather
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-12-14 16:14:51
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
consider that assuming you are having unresisted skillchains, 1% WSD is being counted twice (in the WS itself, and in the skillchain)

when considering, for example, going from 20% SCD to 30% SCD you see a boost of 1.3 / 1.2 = 8.3% real sc gain

going from 20% WSD to 25% wsd would get you 4.16% more ws damage, but also 4.16% more sc damage.. so it depends on the quantities and how much your base sc damage exceeds your ws damage

it'd almost certainly be better for the later steps of a multistep sc, but probably not worthwhile for a simple 2 step

The effect is the same even on latter steps because it's just a multiplier to the original base damage. SCDMG is almost never worth it ~UNLESS~ you get very large quantities of it on once piece.

WSDMG * SC_MUL * SCDMG

Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
That's why I asked if it was better in certain spots of the sc.

Nope, position in the SC doesn't matter because their all multipliers to each other. Awhile back I did a comparison where I showed how +SCDMG never wins when total damage is counted.

Base WSDMG = 100
5% SCDMG on a 1.0 SC (2 step light)

100 * 1.0 * 1.05 = 105 + 100 = 205 total DMG.

5% WSD for 105 WSDMG

105 * 1.0 * 1.0 = 105 + 105 = 210 total DMG.

on a 3.0 (5 step Radiance)

5% SCDMG

100 * 3.0 * 1.05 = 315 + 100= 415 Total DMG

5% WSD for 105 WSDMG

105 * 3.0 * 1.0 = 315 + 105 = 420 Total DMG

You end up needing a lot of SCDMG in one slot without giving up too much.
 Carbuncle.Stiltz
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By Carbuncle.Stiltz 2017-12-14 18:32:58
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Awhile back I did a comparison where I showed how +SCDMG never wins when total damage is counted.
I'm sure your math is completely accurate and you're absolutely right about everything that you think you're right about.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-12-14 19:43:14
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So it's impractical to even gear for? I won't waste my time trying to augment if that's the case. Just trying to determine what scenario it would be beneficial
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-12-14 19:54:47
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Got a bit more time to look at this.

Asura.Saevel said: »
The effect is the same even on latter steps because it's just a multiplier to the original base damage. SCDMG is almost never worth it ~UNLESS~ you get very large quantities of it on once piece.
It's not the same, the relative value of SCD increases as the proportion damage in WS : damage in SC decreases.

If you're closing a lv3 sc on the sixth step, you have a 2.25 multiplier on WSD.

That means, 5% WSD results in:
1.05x + 2.25(1.05x) = 3.4125x

vs 3.25x, a net gain of 5% damage

5% SCD results in
x + 2.25(1.05x) = 3.3625x vs 3.25, thats a net gain 3.46% damage (0.692% damage gain per point of skillchain damage+%)


if you look at a lv3 closer on a 2 step SC, you have a 1.0 multiplier on wsd

5% WSD results in:
1.05x + 1.00(1.05x) = 2.1x

2.1 / 2 = a net gain of 5% damage, the wsd has remained the same proportional increase(obviously)

5% scd results in
x + 1.00(1.05x) = 2.05x vs 2.0, thats a net gain 2.5% damage (0.5% damage gain per point of skillchain damage+%)


The relative benefit of SC damage+ is 38.4% higher on a 6th step light closer than a second step light closer. That's easy to prove.

The question is at what point they equal out, which will depend on quantities involved. Assuming equal amounts of both prior to the piece in question, it takes approximately 1.4% SC damage to beat 1% ws damage on a sixth step closer. The problem here is that SC damage only goes up to 6 on valorous gear, while WS damage goes up to 5. The point where the SC damage wins won't be met unless you're stacking WSD with minimal SCD, or you have a piece with a much better tradeoff than 5:6.
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 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-12-14 20:02:18
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However, if you go up to a 5 step radiance with a value of 3.0(assuming that's correct, that's what Saevel said), you have:
1.05x + 3(1.05x) = 4.2x for a 5% WSD piece of valorous

vs

x + 3(1.06x) = 4.18x for a 6% SCD piece of valorous

which is almost nothing. Now, let's assume for a second that SCD traits are multiplicative like bg-wiki says.

Now, we have:

1.05x + (3)(1.16)(1.05x) = 4.704x
and

x + (3)(1.16)(1.06x) = 4.6888x

That's looking awfully tight. But wait, what about gear? If we're looking at a typical SAM ws set(stolen from thread, maybe not perfect, but this is just illustration)..

ItemSet 351919

we have 28% WSD and 8% SCD(not sure if cape/gloves go into job trait category since they say the trait name or gear category, will leave it as gear for the sake of naysayers) without assigning our augments.

If all augments are WSD:
1.48x + (3)(1.16)(1.08)(1.48x) = 7.042432x

Now, if we do 1 SCD aug instead:
1.43x + (3)(1.16)(1.14)(1.43x) = 7.103096x

With 2 SCD augs:
1.38x + (3)(1.16)(1.20)(1.38x) = 7.14288x

With 3 SCD augs:
1.33x + (3)(1.16)(1.26)(1.33x) = 7.161784x

With 4 SCD augs:
1.28x + (3)(1.16)(1.32)(1.28x) = 7.159808

Any amount of SC augs win by ~1-2% with the 3 sc augment setup winning hardest at around 1.7%. It's not really a game breaking difference, and you'd have to be pretty picky to set it up. But, there are cases where it can win.

Edit: Forgot valorous gloves had SCD, adjusted numbers accordingly.
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 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-12-14 20:27:07
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So, in conclusion:

Solving for 3.00 multiplier(5 step radiance, according to Saevel, couldn't find source for sc modifiers on radiance/umbra personally):
7.042432 with 4 wsd
7.103096 with 3 wsd 1 scd
7.14288 with 2 wsd 2 scd
7.161784 with 1 wsd 3 scd
7.159808 with 4 scd

Solving for 2.25 multiplier(6 step light/dark):
5.651824 with 4 wsd
5.684822 with 3 wsd 1 scd
5.70216 with 2 wsd 2 scd
5.703838 with 1 wsd 3 scd
5.689856 with 4 scd

Solving for 2.0 multiplier(5 step light/dark):
5.188288 with 4 wsd
5.212064 with 3 wsd 1 scd
5.22192 with 2 wsd 2 scd
5.217856 with 1 wsd 3 scd
5.199872 with 4 scd

Solving for 1.75 multiplier(4 step light/dark):
4.724752 with 4 wsd
4.739306 with 3 wsd 1 scd
4.74168 with 2 wsd 2 scd
4.731874 with 1 wsd 3 scd
4.709888 with 4 scd

Solving for 1.5 multiplier(3 step light/dark, 6 step fusion/grav/distortion/fragmentation):
4.261216 with 4 wsd
4.266548 with 3 wsd 1 scd
4.26144 with 2 wsd 2 scd
4.245892 with 1 wsd 3 scd
4.219904 with 4 scd

Solving for 1.25 multiplier(5 step fusion/grav/frag/distortion):
3.79768 with 4 wsd
3.79379 with 3 wsd 1 scd

Given you use the listed set:

-Our breaking point in this set is 1.25 multipliers. Anything above that will derive some value from at least one piece of SCD+6 gear being used over an equivalent WSD+5 piece. So, light/dark if not 2stepping, and t2 sc only when using 6 steps+.

-Step 5/6 light/darkness/radiance/umbra will favor 2-3 pieces of SCD gear, with the optimal set shifting toward 3 pieces as you go into higher steps/radiance.

-Allies roll will push 4 SC pieces to the best setup for step 5/6 light/dark/umbra/radiance, and likely increase the amount of pieces you should use on earlier steps as well.

If you want exact results for a set with different amounts of WSD/SCD, use the formula to calculate it. Doesn't seem to be a worthwhile swap to me, but it can be technically better and this killed a good half hour so have at it.

edit: Fixed numbers for valorous gloves' scd, and cleaned up points. Keep in mind that if the SCD on gloves/cape goes into the job trait instead of the same term as valorous, it makes SCD valorous more effective.
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-12-14 21:01:02
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sc dmg should also get benefit from a multi hit on the closing ws as well.

I did have a few ideas for how to handle SCs in my sim, if I ever get unlazy I can add sc gear. it will be kind of wonky since it may not always close an SC in a zerg situation
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-12-15 16:56:33
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Umbra / Radiance is just a 2.0 base instead of Dark / Light having a 1.0 base.

Also I wasn't really wanting to compare it directly with WSD because it's only applied on SC's, though I guess with SAM they are pretty much the same thing, but rather what's the total amount of WS damage that's being sacrificed for the +SC damage, counting for STR / attack / acc / ect. The result is that at best SCD comes in dead even or slightly ahead and only at the very end of a long SC. Doesn't do much for the intermediate steps of that SC. What you were really comparing was the diminishing returns of WSD vs SCD.

I could of said it better but basically the player is almost never going to win out trying to put +SCD on their gear unless it's a lot on a piece without sacrificing much.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-12-15 18:12:17
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Perhaps hands then, since they already have +5 base. Would be the safest compromise.
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By Smokenttp 2017-12-15 19:20:48
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i would love to understand a bit more on calcs regarding that , i can tell my experiencie on eyeballing it tough and pretty much it kinda allings with the math results ppl already mentioned here (I.E not worth gearing towards as lowering base ws damage will result in less overall skill chain damage anyway, unless you can get like automatons level of skill chain bonuses and even then if your ws hits for 1k it becames insta trash).To me i was aways under the impression that skill chain damage bonus worked exactly like magic burst bonus wich is creating an "invisible extra damage" before applying the skill chain multiplier (so for instance an 10K ws with an 50% skill chain damage in a 3 step (x2 damage multiplier) would produce around 30k damage skill chain instead of the normal 20k but assuming that you would need to swap gear wich would lower your base damage in order to get these results would probably be derimetral overall. However this all are not die hard math only my own observations within the game , this of course can lead to missinformation as i am unaware to how the calculations works exactly however it does allign alot with what savael said. (also i too was under impression radiance/umbra started at a x3 multiplier [from going directly to it with like cdc>cdc] but then again this is just from eye balling and not exactly doing much calcs either)
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-12-15 22:02:42
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Perhaps hands then, since they already have +5 base. Would be the safest compromise.

Yeah if you could get a SCD +6 augment with a solid amount of STR / Acc / Atk then you'd be good with it.
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By Carbuncle.Stiltz 2017-12-16 07:03:01
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Asura.Saevel said: »
SCDMG is almost never worth it
Asura.Saevel said: »
+SCDMG never wins
Asura.Saevel said: »
I could of said it better but basically the player is almost never going to win out trying to put +SCD on their gear
Asura.Saevel said: »
Yeah... then you'd be good with it
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