Dev Tracker - Discussion

You almost certainly can. I think a lot of this argument stems from people being unaware how much damage actually varies and how much leeway actually exists in fights people consider to be difficult. I would say Maletaru is largely right that very few single items are necessary for a given strategy.

Ngai would be extremely difficult without Loxotic Mace if you block the NQ as well, but the others could probably still be done with Eusochus, Blurred, or Beryllium.

Um what? Maybe if you're wearing no ilvl gear? Ilvl 119 trust tanks could probably hold 10 sheol A mobs with 1 healer trust. Sheol A mobs are a joke.


Who is using loxotic in ngai v25? My setup is PUP MNK GEO BRD COR WHM. Not a loxotic in sight.

For gigelorum or henwen, rdm, mnk, PUP, BLU don't use loxotic. Plenty of blunt options without a loxotic in sight.

Ummm...liberator, redemption, anguta. Also, i killed mboze using father time (drk ki1, war ki2) so uh...yeah, you can kill mboze with 0 REMA on your drk. I've done it.

Even if you assume you must use WAR, Beryllium Mace +1 isn't going to completely demolish your DPS to the point it is unwinnable. It's just going to be much harder.

I still have yet to see any item that really fits the definition of being required for a given strategy or setup. Too many people get caught up in a bandwagon or general attitude and assume items are just far and away better than they actually are. The difference comes from having excellent equipment on every slot, each individual piece can be downgraded without significant effect in almost every case.

Without rage.

800 stomping is normal

Kupipi is a whm
Selh’teus is “treated like a pld”, but is as much of a tank as Monberaux

Sheep do a berserk move, as do dhalmels.

No indication of which floor that is.

As usual, Eiryl posts nothing of significance.

I literally summoned AAEV, Monbro, walked up to the first enemy I saw, cast stone on it, and engaged the trusts. It's at 60% right now and I haven't touched it. AAEV is, obviously, still at full health.

OK, now that her Reprisal/Sentinel have worn off, she's taking REAL damage! Up to ~180 on unblocked hits. ~30 on blocked crits.

There's no chance this leech could ever kill her, even if she didn't have a healer trust.

Lmao did you just post a graphic of a DRK taking damage from a Dhalmel, which has access to Berserk? Kupipi is an entry level trust with nearly no defensive traits. Dude, lol. Your experience with trusts being "weak" are Kupipi, Zeid, and Mihli Aliapoh. This is pure comedy.

What else would a brand new player use.

Valaineral, gloryslash 10 mobs and instantly die?

Even with a tank the whm trusts pull hate and get blasted.

A tank trust?

*** Trion. You get him as part of the intro quest bro.



Where are the 800s?!

I could be misremembering because it's been a while, but I don't think any Nostos mobs link at all in any of the Sheols. You can single pull all of them, the exception being the Agon Beastmen. Why would you pull ten monsters at once? You are not serious right now.

What kind of mentally deficient idiot using trusts run into a group of all 10 aggressive mobs that take -99% secondary damage??

Turns out, not that dangerous. Only 8 left since I killed the other 2 I was testing with. Maybe they'd eventually run OOMP or something, but they're not exactly getting shitstomped by 800 damage crits or anything.

If were to believe the monstrosity description of Whirl Claws is accurate to NPC version (its probably nerfed for PC), its 200% AOE damage. Anyone whos fought rabbits in the last 22 years knows it hurts. Theres a reason despite the abundance of bunnies, they were never a popular xp target after dunes. Things ive xped on in tree first floor: spiders, crabs, mandies, crawlers , NOT funguar and NOT rabbits.

Low IQ pleb fighting targets with high damage AOE moves. A soloer isnt full clearing. Most people with a shred of intellect would go “wow these hurt lets go fight one of the other 6 mobs on this floor”. Eiryl doesnt make that connection.

Good news is if the player got hit, good chance Sehl'teus would heal the whole party back up to full instantly.

The real noodle scratcher is... why is someone using SemihLallhlfhfhfina though?

900 in one second, on a pld. Not even crits!


(Could do even better if a Manticore or a Scorpion was on floor one but they weren't)

I guess if your point was "It's possible to get a trust killed if you play in the worst way humanly possible" then yes, it is true. If you don't have any *** clue what you're doing and/or actively make the worst possible decisions, it's possible to kill a trust in Sheol A.

I'd argue that there should be a failure state in video games, if you *** up this royally.

If you're not an idiot and use trusts properly and, just maybe, are actually doing something on your character as well...it's nearly impossible to die on the first floor of Sheol A.

If you screw all that up somehow, that's not because Sheol A is tough, it's because you *** up. Try again tomorrow I guess. Once you learn how to play the game, it's actually not remotely challenging.

Now if you want to talk about the top floor of Sheol A, then we can chat about how it can become challenging for newbs. Not the first floor though, not even remotely. If you wear ilvl gear, pull mobs one at a time, and summon trusts that make sense, you cannot die. Even if you AFK for the entire fight and make a cup of tea, your trusts will literally just kill the mob while you're gone.

TBH, with some of the numbers I'm seeing here, I wonder if you swapped into non-ilvl gear and gimped your trusts down to level 90 or something. Those numbers don't make much sense.

Has anyone submitted a bug report to them? They seem completely ignorant to bugs or unconcerned with player dissatisfaction that they might cause without it being brought up to them. Skeleton crew and whatnot.

I'm clearly on a bug report kick. But if someone who actually know how to play SMN other than hitting the easy button like myself for Aeonics wants to do it, I imagine the report could be more informative.

A lot of assumption for someone starting out trying to get into endgame that only started maybe a month ago.

And nope, that was a perfectly standard 119 (5/5 su5+1 with ambuscade weapon) valaineral with zero MM (second ever entrance into sheol A) with protect 5 on and no stupid ***like chacharoon giving the mob an attack bonus etc

Valaineral took “900dmg in one second”, what about the other ~1200 hp? How did it slowly drop to orange HP and none of the trusts healed him?

It should be noted that you will gain MM tiers rather quickly after your first few entries into Sheol. I think the first tier in any zone is something simple like "Kill 3 Nostos". Then the next goal in that tier is like kill 200. Then you have chests and NMs. Eventually, without even really trying, a player could gain MM5-10 accidentally just from casually doing Sheol A, killing mobs and opening chests, inevitably making trusts progressively stronger.

The system isn't fool proof on day one, but if a player is really looking to farm segments regularly, it will get easier the more he does it. Eventually, he'll be able to move onto Sheol B and gain some MM tiers there, and he may be ready to join Sheol C farming groups. But you're not going to be indestructible right off the bat.

A new player wont be able to enter Sheol B for 45 days from creation, so thats a good while in the starter area.

Regardless, the point is the mobs attack is too damn high. And that's just the first of the easiest floor.

Lowering it actually helps someone start out. Does nothing for the 20 year vet with 60 phalanx pulling the whole floor. It's win:win. There's no reason normal mobs should have like 3k attack.

Omen mobs have too much attack to, just for the record. It's dumb. Sortie too I'd assume, never going to enter to find out though.

If you're going to drop TP for Path C, you might as well get longer duration. For specific fights, what you're saying is completely correct and I agree that people generalize too often in this game.

You can't get other people to agree to carry you as you only do bubbles as a GEO without Idris.

Can someone ask Eiryl what his trusts were doing for the 10 seconds Valaineral was eating 1200+ white damage? Because “900 damage in one second” shouldnt kill him.

Cause it sure looks like he did something in the stupidest way possible for his gotcha screencap that wouldnt happen in a normal scenario.

I was going to ask this because despite the fact that I showed entire logs, he only cherry picked the worst possible scenarios, but it's pointless. His point is if you use Zeid, Vala, Semih, Kupipi, & Sehl'Teus, your trusts will eventually die if you pull enough mobs and don't do anything to help them.

Maybe Kupipi ran out of MP because he waited 15 minutes killing mobs without resummoning her, giving her a refresh trust, having a second healer trust, or doing literally anything helpful at all. Who knows?


My point isn't "you should do this and people should make up for your laziness." I don't think people should try these fights without Idris (unless they have no other choice). My point was Idris isn't the missing link between being capable of being a fight and not being capable of beating it. Just like prime weapons, Idris doesn't (IMO) "Allow you to beat something you couldn't already beat without it."

edit, another example: I beat Ngai when my GEO was unmastered. Would I recommend this? No. Is this something I put forth as a strategy people should implement? No. If someone asked me if they should have ML when attempting Ngai on GEO, I would say yes. On the other hand, it is evidence that ML are not required for GEO to beat Ngai. There's a distinct difference between something being required and something being helpful.

It's an arbitrary bar that (virtually) no item in the entire game could clear, but somehow when Primes don't clear it, they're suddenly not worth making or not exciting? IDK, the logic is very weird to me. I think, which is why I brought this whole thing up, people are just not reflecting on this and are just stuck parroting the same low-effort talking points they heard their buddy say. It's an echo chamber of "meh, these weapons are so mid and don't really do anything" without anyone bothering to apply that to, say, Caladbolg, Idris, Rostam, Orpheus' Sash, KClub...literally any item in the game.

They each slowly contribute to your performance, making you better and better at your job, allowing you to make more mistakes without dying or failing a run, until eventually, you win! ...Just like prime weapons.

The point was never "that it's survivable"

The point is the lowest area at the lowest level of the very beginning of "end game" has an unreasonably high entry bar. Lowering that bar, is how you actually "get people into endgame"

The easiest way, anyway. And with no downsides. Common sense solution.