Burns Oregon Refuge Takeover Ends In Blood

Some of these dudes ARE cowboys. Who raise cattle. And ride horses.

For them those are normal clothes. I am not saying there are no posers among the occupiers though.

That "eye witness" was not in eyeshot of where he was shot. Even if his assessment is correct, there's no mention of Finicum reaching for his weapon. Less than lethal force was appropriate unless he did. And, again, until I see some video evidence, I'm obliged to discuss the facts, not the feels.

You don't get to murder someone because they "might" be armed, period.

He went AROUND the roadblock, but it's irrelevant. Running away doesn't warrant a death penalty. If the Oregon State Police are unable to apprehend a suspect without killing them, they should be fired. The ONLY reason to shoot a suspect is when they pose a clear and eminent danger to the life of the officer or a bystander. That's not what I think, that's actually the *** law.

Now I'm wondering if there are any native americans that wear that feathery headdress thing every day. Asian girls don't wear those chinese dresses every day, unfortunately.

Not all asians are chinese! Racist!

... j/k about the racist part. They really get pissed if you say that to them though. Japanese, Koreans, and Chinese don't like to be called one of the others.

I'm sure some of them get pissed over it. Maybe it's my Y chromosome talking, but I don't particularly care. I just give them a smirk and tell them to try again.

The whole thing's moot though. Those dresses look good on any girl no matter where they're from...what were we talking about again?

Oh right, Oregon.

Pretty sure they know by now that they're not gonna get what they want. My question is, why do they still get mail? Why do they get internet and water/electricity? I'm pretty sure we could end this in 2 days if we just shut those things off.

That's some good fascism there.

Fixed.

No, most of the natives around here dress like stoners, gang bangers, and cowboys among other styles.

That isn't ceremonial cowboy clothing, its work clothes. If you wish to see ceremonial cowboy clothing search "rodeo queen."

Ammon Bundy Urges Remaining Militants To Stand Down, Go Home
The leader of the occupation has called for those remaining to "go home and hug your families."
HuffPo

Will they listen? Who knows. Stay tuned.

Same bat time, same bat channel.

And then tried in court and sent to prison.

I don't care what they said, I care about what they did. They have done nothing to warrant murdering them in cold blood.

While I agree, there are a few ongoing public knowledge cases in the country right now where that's obviously in question...

I don't disagree with you. I just hope the people who were doing a lot of spin to defend shooting unarmed people in the inner city understand that it will be very difficult to attack this instance of police using deadly force while saying it was okay in those instances.

Except there are plenty of jackoffs who live in the city and wear cowboy hats around.

I really did not do extensive research into the causes behind this situation, but from what I could tell this was about making federally owned land free from grazing fees, or how someone else said: although it seemed more rooted in grazing than oil and minerals. However, like with anything there is more back story involved, details, etc. This Bundy family was involved along with others who have history with causing problems. I do not want to outright state their family and their supporters are completely in the wrong, went all about this all wrong, and are unintelligent, intolerant of people who are different, but that seems to be the narrative painted by the left and left leaning media. Not even the far left, and even the right leaning media really did not give them much support.

So with all that in mind, combined with the law enforcement overreach that has been an issue for the past few years... I'd say from the amount of time I looked into all of this (I'd guess maybe an hour total spanning over 2 weeks) law enforcement was very patient with these people. There was the statement from the guy who died from being shot the law that he would rather die than give up, so he got his wish on that.

I would really have to research this incident along with the earlier events caused by the Bundy family, I don't remember too much offhand, other than more issues with paying overdue fees on grazing in federally owned land.

In conclusion, it would be nice to see action taken by better prepared people with a clear goal in mind over what I would consider much more important issue(s) and perhaps an ideology that is more tolerant of people and a cause worthy of the trouble it will cause. It would be nice to see people take action against the government, but this just did not feel right in any category. Overall, just a 1/10 simply on some people finally taking action, everything else just seemed wrong.

You need a worthy cause, a decent plan of action, clear goal(s), a certain level of tolerance that all members abide by, and better preparation. Start there if you're going to start some type of movement to rise up against the government. Public support is also important too. If not many people outside your group and circle of friends and family aren't supportive or pay little to no attention, then there is definitely an important problem or problems somewhere that need to be addressed if you are going to be taken seriously.

EDIT: I realize that there were some arson charges involved, but I didn't read much further into that aspect at all. But if you're burning things down... nah your cause has flaws.

Probably more, honestly. Every rancher or farmer I've ever met wears a baseball cap.

Another excellent point in of this in which I totally forgot about. If you're going to fight the government and lose you are going to lose more than just your fight, but also be subjected to the penalties that system you lost against imposes based on the crimes you technically committed. In other words make sure you have a decent exit strategy to either minimize your crimes under that system or make sure you can win from the beginning. On the fly thinking may be required as well if and when a comprised withdrawal is necessary. That may be something like, let my people go and charge me with federal offenses or coming to some type of stand down agreement of sorts.

Yeah I remember the million dollar fines one of the Bundys was hit with awhile back ago.

I've been watching it pretty closely. They were protesting some very shady actions between the US Governments Bureau of Land Management and another family over grazing and watering rights.


This stuff is rooted in very old legislature when the US expanded west and acquire a ton of open unsettled land. Ranchers directly own the land their ranch is on but need to use nearby land to graze and move their livestock around. The land is treated as community property as there is no need for exclusive private control. The BLM is responsible for managing that community property. The nearby families pay the BLM an administrative fee to use the land and the BLM use's that money to pay it's clerks and wardens.

Now fast forward to the last few decades and the BLM's started acting more like the FBI / DEA then a service organization. They have been pushing to buy the land the ranchers are on and using the grazing permit system as a way to antagonize and coerce the hereditary ranchers. This is where that whole "arson" *** started. Originally the older man involved did a controlled burn on his own lands to clear brush and debris, this is common practice. That burn got out of control and spread to nearby federal BLM controlled land before it died off. The incident was reported to the BLM but no charges were filed. Five years later there was another dispute between the owner and the BLM where the BLM was denying him the permits to graze his livestock. He pushed back and they decided to use him as an example, dug out his previous report and then used it to charge him with domestic terrorism. There was a court case but since he had already agreed that he started the fire, he was found guilty. The trial judge used the 8th Amendment to declare the minimum five year sentence to be cruel and excessive for the crime and then sentenced them to a few months each with credit for time served. The BLM got pissed and appealed to a higher court, the higher court overturned the lower judges decision and imposed the five year minimum. The gentle men involved, father and son, voluntary turned themselves in.

That is the situation that caused the Bundy cowboys to start this ***. Though up until now it's been a peaceful protest which amazed me, I figured some government goon would go apeshit and just escalate the situation into a political nightmare of epic proportions.

Now for all you clueless city folk I'm going to let you in on something. The Federal Government, especially during a liberal administration, has a very antagonistic relationship to private land owners. This stems from a disagreement on the use of the land and the relationship between the lands steward (Federal Government) and the local population. Local folks believe the land should be open for responsible community use, while the stewards tend to treat it like they own it and hand out usage permits as favors. When we are talking land we're talking waterways, grazing land, forestry, dirt roads and so forth. The EPA and other agencies have a ton of rules that are created via policy (not legislation) and are then enforced on that public land. This creates the situation where land owners can't graze and water their livestock, can't move then from point A to point B or can't farm on their own property. Thankfully I'm from a state where most of the land is hereditary land owned for generations with very little direct Federal control. We've frequently told the government to go *** themselves whenever they try to move in, buy up land and tell people what to do. I feel sorry for those who have to live out west and deal with the government political shenanigans.

Now mind you this is a very well armed voting population who tend to live in strong Republican voting districts. Going in guns blazing and demanding they bow down to your federal authoriti is exactly how you start a huge negative political incident full of bad press and forcibly retired individuals, or under extreme circumstances a Civil War. Mind you the Revolutionary War was started by British citizens who were tired of their governments heavy handed tactics, the exact same tactics encouraged and recommended by many posters here. That is why you want to peacefully deescalate the situation and let it resolve itself.

The founding fathers could have continued to petition to represent the colonies for any further taxation. They didn't need to have an armed revolt. If they'd have waited longer we'd have a representative in parliament. They could have used diplomacy to shed light on the unfair tax burden King George was levying on the colonies.

History dictates necessity of action. If the colonies had lost you could put in the ring leader's names in place of Bundy. I'm not saying what Bundy and his merry brood of dipshits did wasn't ignorant, and I don't condone violence, but I can see how they felt it was their only option