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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-08-11 08:20:48
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Jetackuu said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Iran already has a nuclear bomb.
lol if they do they got it from somewhere else, they sure as hell didn't make it.

Their enrichment levels were nowhere near the quality for weapons grade.
Probably from North Korea or the same people they got their parts from.
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-08-11 08:24:05
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Only an idiot would drop a nuclear bomb anyway, especially so close at home too like it's Israel to Persia..
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By Ramyrez 2015-08-11 08:27:21
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
But hey, you, like Jassik, will believe anything Obama says. Even though he has lied to your (and the nation's) face most of his presidential career....you will still believe him blindly......without any thought of your own......

Speaking of ignoring things, how many times do I have to say I don't blindly trust any politician, nor believe half the things they say? I take everything out of the mouths of authority figures -- all authority figures -- with anywhere from a grain to a heaping helping of sodium chloride.

When it comes to national politicians, it's closer to the later.

Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I guess you forget (or choose to ignore) that Iran is one of the largest donors of ISIS and Al Qaeda in the world. You also forget that Hamas has stated multiple times that they will destroy both Israel and the West when given a chance.

Ramyrez said: »
They're a mixed bag of jealousy and hatred for the West backed by the religious fanaticism of a violent, believing military (and likely terrorists to boot).

Yeah. Totally sounds like I think they're friends. The problem is, you forget (or choose to ignore) this part:
Ramyrez said: »
But it's a country with almost 80 million people, with a large majority of them innocent civilians trying to live day-to-day just like you or I.
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By Garuda.Chanti 2015-08-11 09:25:35
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I guess you forget (or choose to ignore) that Iran is one of the largest donors of ISIS and Al Qaeda in the world....
I guess you forget (or choose to ignore) that our friends the Saudi royal family is the biggest donor to ISIS and Al Qaeda.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-08-11 10:47:12
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Ok so with all the discussions going on I decided to do a lookup of Bernie Sanders and his political presence and holy *** have you guys bought the fabricated narrative hook line and sinker.

He is a card carrying foot solder for the Democratic party, it doesn't get more bought and paid for them him. He is so far progressive that you might as well call him comrade. His entire political career has been as a progressive Democrat and is about as "independent" as George Bush Jr. He's one of the "drag the rich through the streets and take all their stuff" type progressives. Pure socialism and wealth redistribution. His official affiliation as "independent" as just a title so that the Democrats can claim they have one on their side. The idea that he's an independent who's not one of "the team" is a complete fabrication, he takes his marching orders from the same people the other other Democrats do.

I can also see why the Democrats told him to volunteer his name. They want an extremist to use as a political sparing partner against Hillary so as to make her look more moderate for the general election and it doesn't get much more extreme then Bernie. Obviously he's not supposed to win and they will carefully orchestrate the primary such that it looks like he "gave it a good try" but he'll throw the match. They even have gone so far as to ensure another Obama primary won't happen, where the unintended candidate ends up getting the most and thus the nomination. They will carefully manage the primary so that it looks like a sorta kinda fair fight but the winner is preordained as Hillary Clinton. The Republicans wanted to do the same thing but Trump, and his threat of ruining their election chances if they rig the primary, destroyed any hope they had for a managed primary with a preordained winner.

There is nothing objective or quantifiable in your statement. It's just a bunch of tinfoil and hyperbole. Generally, when someone is trying to be persuasive, they use verifiable facts.
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By Ramyrez 2015-08-11 10:50:38
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Quote:
There is nothing objective or quantifiable in your statement. It's just a bunch of tinfoil and hyperbole. Generally, when someone is trying to be persuasive, they use verifiable facts.

Don't forget words that are merely qualifiers being presented as insults!

It's cute when people constantly say "socialist" like it's a bad thing. Because really. Caring about others is for the week and feeble. Kill them off, I say! MURDER THEM FOR A BETTER TOMORROW.
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-08-11 10:56:13
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Ramyrez said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
There is nothing objective or quantifiable in your statement. It's just a bunch of tinfoil and hyperbole. Generally, when someone is trying to be persuasive, they use verifiable facts.

Don't forget words that are merely qualifiers being presented as insults!

It's cute when people constantly say "socialist" like it's a bad thing. Because really. Caring about others is for the week and feeble. Kill them off, I say! MURDER THEM FOR A BETTER TOMORROW.

I don't know, it reads like "you people" to me.
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By Ramyrez 2015-08-11 11:01:56
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Asura.Saevel said:
They will carefully manage the primary so that it looks like a sorta kinda fair fight but the winner is preordained as Hillary Clinton.

Then I won't be voting Democrat. It's that simple.

I want a socialist.

I don't want (another) rank-and-file corporate-backed Democrat who will *** and moan and get in pissing contests with Republicans over things while still trying to please their bribe-givers "campaign donors."

It's why I think Trump wouldn't be the worst option of the GOP crowd. At least he's honest about his ***.
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-08-11 11:17:24
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Ramyrez said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
They will carefully manage the primary so that it looks like a sorta kinda fair fight but the winner is preordained as Hillary Clinton.

Then I won't be voting Democrat. It's that simple.

I want a socialist.

I don't want (another) rank-and-file corporate-backed Democrat who will *** and moan and get in pissing contests with Republicans over things while still trying to please their bribe-givers "campaign donors."

It's why I think Trump wouldn't be the worst option of the GOP crowd. At least he's honest about his ***.


I'm pretty sure you lost something trimming a quote train, lol.
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By Ramyrez 2015-08-11 11:24:49
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Quote:
I'm pretty sure you lost something trimming a quote train, lol.

Nah. It was just largely in response to his "Sanders is a plant by the Dems to make Hillary look more palatable, but she's already confirmed" bit.

I'm not voting for Hillary. I'd love to see a woman president assuming that person is otherwise qualified, but I don't think someone who sat on Walmart's board is really the kind of person I trust to be "for the people."

With her and her ilk it's just saying the right things about social issues to keep the Dems happy and then playing ball with the same corporate *** who sponsor all the politicians.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-08-11 11:26:32
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Ramyrez said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
I'm pretty sure you lost something trimming a quote train, lol.

Nah. It was just largely in response to his "Sanders is a plant by the Dems to make Hillary look more palatable, but she's already confirmed" bit.

I'm not voting for Hillary. I'd love to see a woman president assuming that person is otherwise qualified, but I don't think someone who sat on Walmart's board is really the kind of person I trust to be "for the people."

With her and her ilk it's just saying the right things about social issues to keep the Dems happy and then playing ball with the same corporate *** who sponsor all the politicians.

Check again, I'm pretty sure I didn't say that.
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-08-11 11:27:52
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Ramyrez highlighted the text from Jassik's post quoting Saevel and the system takes the quote as coming from Jassik.

Another mystery solved.
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By Ramyrez 2015-08-11 11:31:40
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Oh, so I did.
 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-08-11 11:35:46
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Ramyrez said: »
Quote:
There is nothing objective or quantifiable in your statement. It's just a bunch of tinfoil and hyperbole. Generally, when someone is trying to be persuasive, they use verifiable facts.

Don't forget words that are merely qualifiers being presented as insults!

It's cute when people constantly say "socialist" like it's a bad thing. Because really. Caring about others is for the week and feeble. Kill them off, I say! MURDER THEM FOR A BETTER TOMORROW.

You say stuff like this and I'm really not sure if you actually believe the fundamental tenants of socialism include "caring for others" or if you're just voicing your own interpretation of it to mean such.
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-08-11 11:39:16
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Ramyrez said: »
Quote:
There is nothing objective or quantifiable in your statement. It's just a bunch of tinfoil and hyperbole. Generally, when someone is trying to be persuasive, they use verifiable facts.

Don't forget words that are merely qualifiers being presented as insults!

It's cute when people constantly say "socialist" like it's a bad thing. Because really. Caring about others is for the week and feeble. Kill them off, I say! MURDER THEM FOR A BETTER TOMORROW.

You say stuff like this and I'm really not sure if you actually believe the fundamental tenants of socialism include "caring for others" or if you're just voicing your own interpretation of it to mean such.

Considering the purpose of Socialism is to protect and maintain the equality and welfare of the people, that's really what it all boils down to. Do you care about the individual or the whole?

I don't think you really understand the massive differences between Socialism and "Socialism".
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By Jetackuu 2015-08-11 11:40:50
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Odin.Jassik said: »
"Socialism."
ftfy buddy

inb4 "I'm not your buddy, pal."
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-08-11 11:46:57
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Socialism is the stepping stone between capitalism and Communism.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-08-11 11:52:43
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Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Socialism is the stepping stone between capitalism and Communism.

Socialism is diametrically opposed to Communism, bud.

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By Ramyrez 2015-08-11 12:09:52
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Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Socialism is the stepping stone between capitalism and Communism.

"Socialism," much like "capitalism," is a simple word to describe complex socioeconomic policies and practices. Have Communist leaders in the past abused socialist doctrine to become essentially tyrannical oligarchs?

Of course.

But that's also happened with feudalism, theism, and capitalism.

Hell, what do you think is going on right now in this very country?

Power being bought and sold so the wealthy few get massive favors and benefits while nearly everyone else toils to do their bidding with a middle class that shrinks and those in the lower classes essentially being assigned there for life barring major lucky breaks.

Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
You say stuff like this and I'm really not sure if you actually believe the fundamental tenants of socialism include "caring for others" or if you're just voicing your own interpretation of it to mean such.

*shrugs* Need some word for it. We're not talking U.S.S.R. socialism. We're talking about what Jassik said. A system that is intended to see everyone cared for at some acceptable baseline and that allows those who work harder to further thrive.

And I know you think that's close to what we have now here in the U.S. You think everything is just peachy "as long as you're working hard," and you think anyone not making ends meet is to blame on their own, completely dismissing any possibility that some people end up in situations beyond their control. Frequently from birth.
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-08-11 12:14:47
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Socialism is the stepping stone between capitalism and Communism.

Socialism is diametrically opposed to Communism, bud.



Umm ... I think maybe your confused on what exactly communism and socialism are. They are on the exact same line, communism is the complete lack of ownership of private property, the community owns everything. Socialism is when the community owns a significant amount of property but there is still a good amount left in the hands of private citizens. Capitalism is further away where significant property is owned by private citizens. The concept of "ownership" isn't referring to a name on a piece of paper but rather who has control over that particular piece of property.

"Means of Production" = land, factory's, intellectual property, raw materials, tools, distribution networks and so forth. Any debate regarding socialism, communism or capitalism will always ultimately boil down to property rights.

Ever since the abject failure of communism to ignite mass world wide revolution in capitalist nations, progressives have been trying to rebrand it as something else via using double speak and changing definitions.

It is functionally impossible to have a non-authoritarian socialist / communist government. In order to exercise control over the property the government must be empowered to enforce that control, even against the wish's of private citizens. If the citizens do not want to work on the government wheat field using government tractors and government buildings, then the government must have a way to force them to do so. Either directly through a monopoly of violence, police or military beating and killing of citizens, or indirectly through economic punishment. A government using economic policy to force private citizens to do it's bidding is no different then a government using police brutality to do the same.
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-08-11 12:24:32
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Ramyrez said: »
Need some word for it.
European socialism.

A rose by any other name...
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-08-11 12:25:21
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I'm not confused at all, bud. You're the one claiming communism is functionally identical to socialism, which isn't just wrong, it's willful ignorance. In truth, socialism is an economic model, not a political one, and conflating the two is a red flag. It demonstrates a conscious choice to lump all different schools of thought into one pile of wrong, rather than approach new ideas with skepticism.
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By Ramyrez 2015-08-11 12:26:17
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Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Ramyrez said: »
Need some word for it.
European socialism.

A rose by any other name...

Yeah. Except I'm on this continent. So I just said "socialism" and went ahead and assumed people would understand.

But you're right. I guess I shouldn't make assumptions.

Clearly I mean we should go back to Stalinist Russia, where we'd all be miserable and downtrodden. I obviously don't mean we should look to our allies in Europe and build on their successes and freedoms. You know. Like we did when we started this country.
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-08-11 12:33:10
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The strength and efficiency of the government determines the success-fulness of your model. Only a strong authoritarian government can properly handle control of most of production, property, and resources.

Same goes with socialism. If you have an ineffective, corrupt, and prone to abuse government, socialism isn't going to be very effective and end up bankrupting the nation. Allowing the people who ruined it to get away with all the wealth too.
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-08-11 12:36:18
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Ramyrez said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Ramyrez said: »
Need some word for it.
European socialism.

A rose by any other name...

Yeah. Except I'm on this continent. So I just said "socialism" and went ahead and assumed people would understand.

But you're right. I guess I shouldn't make assumptions.

Clearly I mean we should go back to Stalinist Russia, where we'd all be miserable and downtrodden. I obviously don't mean we should look to our allies in Europe and build on their successes and freedoms. You know. Like we did when we started this country.
Germany is the only country in decent shape. Not going into all the details again, but when you think of socialism, you're thinking of Scandinavian countries. And their models would never work in the U.S. We've been over this.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-08-11 12:40:39
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Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
The strength and efficiency of the government determines the success-fulness of your model. Only a strong authoritarian government can properly handle control of most of production, property, and resources.

Same goes with socialism. If you have an ineffective, corrupt, and prone to abuse government, socialism isn't going to be very effective and end up bankrupting the nation. Allowing the people who ruined it to get away with all the wealth too.


Control and ownership aren't the same thing, but nobody is proposing the government takeover industry. Suddenly, wanting to get private money out of politics and outlaw the corporatist policies that have led to overwhelming monopoly in energy and communications is "socialist". The things people like me and Ramy have voiced opposition to are corporatist and authoritatian, and we've both expressed support for Sanders specifically because he opposes those things. I don't agree with 90% of his politics, but he is the only person willing to focus on the things that are the real threats to this country. That doesn't make me a socialist and it sure doesn't make socialism anything besides what it is.

Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Germany is the only country in decent shape. Not going into all the details again, but when you think of socialism, you're thinking of Scandinavian countries. And their models would never work in the U.S. We've been over this.

Why not? I've never heard a single reason besides "we have 330 million people". We've also got more personal wealth than they do, it's just far more concentrated. So, the population thing is non-sequitur until you can quantify what effect that has on the model.
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-08-11 12:42:00
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The difference between euro socialism and ussr socialism is simply a matter of time. The well intended monopoly on resources by the state has always eventually been twisted into a tool of individual oppression.
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By Ramyrez 2015-08-11 12:42:52
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
The difference between euro socialism and ussr socialism is simply a matter of time. The well intended monopoly on resources by the state has always eventually been twisted into a tool of individual oppression.

Yeah.

No individual oppression going on here in the U.S. Capitalism could never be twisted in that way. No-siree.

Sing yourself another lullaby.
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-08-11 12:43:58
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
The difference between euro socialism and ussr socialism is simply a matter of time. The well intended monopoly on resources by the state has always eventually been twisted into a tool of individual oppression.

Do you know what the "euro socialist" model even is? Do you understand there are at least 5 discreet forms of hybrid socialist/capitalist systems at work in Europe?
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-08-11 12:44:42
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We should all be like Greece.

Btw isn't this topic more suited for random politics?
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