The 6th Ministry's Secret: A Summoner's Guide (v2)

so testing OAT on avatar with volt strike's changes, level 130 jagil, no support, and trusts cast no debuffs:


Only AM3 and one mana cede:

Ramuh wasn't TPing and I'd resummon him if he got str down. I also used garland on another mob.

I don't think there's any other way to describe the damage spikes other than OAT procs of either double or triple attack on the weaponskill. While it's not 100% conclusive, especially because damage can vary due to how many of the hits crit, it is pretty conclusive imho given how we know these thing work already. So go Nirvana :D

Those damage ranges don't seem outside the normal ranges I'm used to seeing on Volt Strike, especially with the added variability of the latest changes.

Crits are crucial for Volt Strike even more so than most BPs in my experience, so you can see pretty high variation. On the Poroggo Ambuscade fight for example, I believe I averaged something like 8-11k, but I frequently saw 16k+ and even as high as 25k. No astral flow or anything to boost the damage like that, it was just a fluke triple crit I think but it was more than double my normal damage range.

I'm not saying to rule out that multi-hit is better than it used to be, but I don't think that's conclusive, especially with such a small sample size. I'm curious what results we'd get with more testing, but ugh I hate testing SMN stuff so props to you for just having the patience to even do a little bit.

Any noticeable difference with Flaming Crush?

Flaming Crash is acc bonus based on TP, it wasn't listed as one of the BPs they specifically buffed.

Fair enough, to truly know you are probably right you want a much higher sample size. Though I'm thinking it might be possible to just test the top end (pdif capped, mana cede every one, do about 20 with and 20 without OAT). If OAT doesn't help though I'd actually be more surprised by that since every WS there is in the game with FTP carry is greatly helped by multihit. I'll try to make this higher priority in my testing.

What Deku said, only the ones that were listed to have hits carry through would possibly benefit from OAT. There could be a pdif cap or something different now but I haven't tested anything like that.

Verda is right, numbers are insanely high with OAT.

Small sample of my results (Apex Jagils, capped pDIF) :

318 tp return
41749
41956
41895
42100
42036
With AF :
51416
50998
51651
53200
51408

424 (DA proc)
55251
55681
54814
54843
55784
With AF :
68119
68166
68382
71160

530 (TA proc)
68980
69640
69418
69159
With AF :
85597

Volt Strike becomes essentialy a 4~5 hits BP with a DA/TA proc, in my case each hit does about 14k~ dmg and 17k~ with AF. The scariest part is I'm very confident that I can deal similar dmg on some of the strongest NMs in the game where the level correction isn't applied.
Of course, I did much more tests than that (since the update, I took the habit to check my avatar's tp after each BP with DA+ equips) and not just on Apex mobs but I don't think it's necessary to write everything. Not a single time I noticed an inconsistency in dmg anyway and as you can see, BPs are very consistent when pDIF is capped.

Now, I start to wonder if I should use Helios with BPdmg+7/DA+8...

would be interesting to test standard apogee +1 vs helios with 7/4crit vs helios with 7/8DA.


Do we have info on how much a crit increases damage on pred claws or volt?

Despite a Critical Attack Bonus trait, there's almost no difference in damage between a normal and a critical hit when pDIP is capped, it's far from amazing in that kind of situation.

I'm sure other people have pointed this out, but I feel obligated to post that Mana Cede JPs are dumb. Formula seems to be:

(1000 TP + 50*JP Level)*(1+Mana Cede Bonus/100) = TP gained

So at JP Level 10 with Caller's Bracers +2, you're already getting 3000 TP/usage. There's no point in Beckoner's Bracers/+1, and with capped JPs you could drop back to Caller's Bracers +1 if you felt so inclined.


Also, Eclipse Bite gets about 45% stronger between 0 and 3000 TP, but it is still worse than Volt Strike in terms of base damage at 3000TP. Volt Strike is likely a better WS all around.

Oh wow, DA now procs on physical BP? Is this just for the multi-hit BP they buffed?

Ehr... Didn't DA always proc on physical BPs?

Yes, multihit of course works on all physical BPs always as Sechs said. The difference is what it means when it does. Before ftp carried it was just like a normal hit, now every hit gets the full bonus of base damage from WSmod and fTP etc so you have each hit adding 14-17k on volt strike instead of 200 damage or whatever your autoattack on Ramuh would be. This is why we said don't gear DA in flaming crush etc since forever.

Like papesse said, doesn't help at all for pdif capped situations. Crit works diff for avatars, it has a very high cap, but if you crit it doesn't break the cap. You can observe this by using assault on level 1 mobs and see how a crit and non crit do nearly exactly the same damage. For situations attack is low though it can do a lot, the more attack starved you are the more crit will help.

Yes it always has. I think Deukusutaa was marveling at the ƒTP now transferring making certain BPs a lot better than when it was just an extra hit.
(For real. Predator Claws is now CdC. It's crazy just how much better it got.)
EDIT: CdC with worse SC properties. But we all can't have L3 properties. Cause I know someone will say that.

Volt Strike was doing about the same damage as unstacked Rudra's against VD Leviathan yesterday, and my SMN is not good.

I guess an important question to ask now is for merlinic gear

What 'slot' does the double attack take up and what is the cap for that aug?

It shares the slot for BP damage and I think i saw as high as DA +5% with fern stones

Yes, sorry, I was marveling that the extra hits now have the ftp carried over from the bloop pact itself, before, it was just an extra hit and it wasn't even noticeable or worth having DA stats on physical BP sets.

So I just got done augmenting a Merlinic Jubbah and came across a pet augment that was a combined total of +31 mab. Has this always been possible? I thought the cap was 30.

cap for double is 25 and 15.

Must've just been incredibly unlucky when augmenting last time I played. Never say MAB go over +30 and today I get two pieces that break 30. Just sucks I didnt get BP dmg +10 with either piece. Also saw Pet DA +5% many times today. Could've sworn I saw a +6 but by time I noticed it I had already hit the confirmation to keep my old augment.

How does spinning dive and other one hit bps fare under these new rules? Would a double attack proc essentially double damage?

Nope!

Only Eclipse Bite, Double Punch, Predator Claws, Rush, Chaotic Strike, and Volt Strike have replicating http://fTP. Also, Spinning Dive's new TP modifier is Accuracy, so there's pretty much no way it'll beat out Volt Strike.

Of those, Eclipse Bite, Double Punch, Rush, Chaotic Strike can be written off for being similar-yet-inferior to Volt Strike. That leaves Predator Claws and Volt Strike. Predator Claws is worse than Volt Strike, but doesn't have enstun so it can be used in situations where you're trying to save Stun.

The other potential competitors (with high TP) are Mountain Buster and Blindside, neither of which I've tested. They now have "damage varies with TP," so while they're very unlikely to be competitive at 0 TP, they might becompetitive at 3000 TP for all I know.

Flaming Crush might also stay somewhat useful for its Fusion skillchain property. You could imagine making Lights by having one guy spam Flaming Crush and the other guy spam Volt Strike.

Huh, i thought thewhole new double attack gimmick worked for all pacts they changed.
Nope. Not in the update notes. rush is though. I wonder if pacts have the 2 extra hit limitation of wses.

idk, all examples so far have been possible with only one DA/TA. We'd probably only expect Nirvana AM3 to proc on the first swing of BPs, so I'd say it's currently unconclusive whether the second swing can also DA.

Mountain Buster'd a level 100 mandy with no buffs for 32k at 3k tp. It is probably a really good pact with companion's roll and pdif capped. Not OAT Volt Strike good but still really good, if you do need a single hit BP for some reason then that's the one I'd go with now. Spinning Dive is also probably our best high accuracy pact, it's 1 hit so gets the 100 accuracy boost SE reported for BP and WS and also gets even more accurate with TP. Rush isn't bad tho if you're just trying to help skillchain on a really high level target since accuracy is increased with TP and the floored hit rate is 20% and it's a 5 hit blood pact (1/5 = 20%), so even floored hit rate and OAT you'd more than likely land the skillchain.

Also props to your vid Papesse, great crew you guys did that near perfectly.

Meanwhile cait's physical bp's are still pretty useless, but I think I found a good use for them. Regal Scratch is Scission and Regal Gash is Detonation and those infinitely chain off each other, so with conduit you could actually 6 step with Cait Sith and with apogee and random deal apogee again 4 step. It's not for damage but would make it good for vagary, in part because the damage isn't that good hah.

What's BiS sets for magical and physical BPs looking like? Minus HQs, but if it really comes down to it I can just make the HQ Apogee set. Don't think I'll ever take SMN incredibly serious, but will do JPs at some point.

Okay, so Avatar's Favor decreases BP recast to 24 seconds for me right now (after charging) and has no notable downside. Is that accurate? Would Beckoner's Horn +1 give me more?

You should be able to get down to 22s, definitely no downside they removed it lowering avatar stats etc.

Beckoner's Horn does help, so I'd use it in your precast sets and might as well idle with it too for favor and refresh. Here's papesse's conclusions on the bp recast stuff, there was a lot of testing on it but as usualy papesse's post are to the point:


If you click the quote there's lots of testing and info on that and the prior page.

I'll try to explain it simply but it's a bit complicated. Basically any set you can get 512 skill, beckoner's horn +1, and favor gift and cap out favor bonuses. Then you want some combination of BP reduction I, BP reduction II, and the delay reduction gift which you can treat as it's own category. BP reduction I and reduction too cap at 15s each, and the gift is a 10 second reduction. Here is an example set Nokki posted:


I'll edit this post with some, give me about 30mins.

ItemSet 347697
Grio Augs BP damage 9-10, avatar macc/mab 30-40, avatar INT 0-15
Merlinic Augs BP damage 9-10, avatar macc/mab 30-40, avatar INT 0-10
Apogee Path A
Cape pet magic acc/magic damage, can pick pet haste or regen

You asked for minus HQ, basically you can just use the NQ instead with some notable options:
* enticer's pants are best in slot for some BPs if your tp isn't high, so you'll want those too.
* helios spats have 15 pet magic acc on them and can be useful for that reason.
* seraphicaller for before you get 100 job points.
* caller's sash for night terror or if you don't care about accuracy for your situation.
* Extremely well augmented merlinic pieces could be a very good high magic accuracy bp set you need very good augs to even beat NQ in raw damage though.


ItemSet 347698
Apogee Path B except for the slacks, path D on those
Cape pet acc/attack, can pick pet haste or regen

* enticer's pants for any that increase damage now with tp, and possibly pred and volt if pdif isn't capped too.
* mujin obi if accuracy no concern.
* A perfect aug'd merlinic actually beats apogee +1 in both accuracy and attack and ties some pieces for bp damage. So merlinic head is great if you can get good enough augs, and merlinic set can beat apogee body in raw damage if augs are good enough but that'd be really rare. Since apogee outside the +1 mitts have basically no accuracy then merlinic would make a great high acc set.
* for both sets, NQ rings win over other options by the way.

With the incoming AFs +2 and +3 updates im thinking if they will upgrade REMs again, im thinking if i should upgrade nirvana to 121 with this campaign or just wait since atm its only a melee upgrade.