The 6th Ministry's Secret: A Summoner's Guide (v2)

Yes, and so is nirvana has this much accuracy etc, only testing will prove anything, thus this entire conversation was a waste of time and effort.

All this says is:

"I speculate Grioavolr is better, based on my speculated facts, thus this conversation is a waste of time until you prove otherwise"

...which is not the answer I was hoping to hear. :( It also means that I may be the only one that believes Nirvana may be better in this regard, and I will be alone in trying to figure this out.

Oh well, I guess... I'll keep it to myself and try to figure it out independently. I'll also take away from this that nobody truly knows; everyone is just guessing.

No, I'm merely giving you the info we have. I am also not volunteering to test this myself as I have a lot of testing I already want to do and this isn't the subject I am most interested in. Magic acc testing is also not often done for a reason, it has a need of exceptionally large sample sizes. I encourage others to test what interests them that's how we build a compendium of information. I am sorry I could not give you the answer you were hoping to hear, but as with anyone else I don't have all the answers, and there's loads of things I could list to yet test on SMN. Also, it's not me vs you and I said from the start speculation is a waste of time, I didn't mean YOUR speculation, I meant speculation period, so mine too.

Speculation is not only pointless conjecture it promotes an unpleasant hostility and results in diatribe my life can do without, if I wanted that I could post in P&R. That said, you're one of my favorite SMN posters and I really value your input to the community, so I look forward to your results.

Since we're on a roll with augments, I finally got a decent BP roll, but the acc. is lacking =(

You could move this discussion to the OF and hopefully get a more definitivr answer.

For what it's worth I've still yet to see an augment on Grioavolr that would beat the presumed 74 magic acc that Nirvana may or may not have.

I'm a little surprised by the poo-pooing of the Nirvana as a magic accuracy option. I've dumped a lot of stones into Grio, and the best magic acc staff I've ever seen was a plain +30 magic acc with no INT, or INT+10 MAcc+22. I've never seen a magic acc roll above +30 with any stone. I'm currently using Nirvana for debuffs and I don't see that changing soon. (Except Impact/Conflag Strike, which I use the Espiritus for due to their known dependence on skill.)

I love the idea of testing this stuff, but Ballista is the only place I could imagine doing it because you don't get a message when the debuff wears off. You'd need to hit a player so they can tell you when it wears off. A RUN might be a good target to test on because they can alter their magic evasion so drastically to find the sweet spot.

Here's at least something worth talking about:
JP Wiki on Augments

It lists grio as having max stats 15, max magicacc/mab as 30 and bp damage as 9. However I know at least the bp damage 9 is inaccurate as I've got bp damage 10 3 times and every time it was the only stat worth keeping, and I'm less clear on if there's a 20 augment but that's what I remembered. The magic acc 30 might be right though, even on the page everyone listed their augs I saw none above 30, but even with the skirmish aug II system some people got extremely high augs others never see for some reason, at least based on testimony. I've yet to see elemental siphon 35 for example mine always cap at 30 but people keep telling me it exists.

It wasn't poo-pooing, I'm just against the idea of the wiki saying "xxx is the best staff for yyy" without solid proof to back that up, at the least it should say "xxx staff is a good option for yyy", unless we know for sure it's true. Even if you only considered dark matter augments it wouldn't be true, it's not off the table just because it's rare or you don't like it that's not how facts work. If you are to say this is the best non augment option, or it's close to augmented options outside darkmatter but that's really rare, or I don't like augments so I'm using this or it's been untested but here's the options those are all fine. What isn't fine is arguing over stuff we don't know, and making claims we can't backup and that it has to be said is what surprises me. I know crevox and you weren't really making that claim but let it be known that is what I was not liking, that and replacing an exchange of information with exchanges of opinion, and as they say opinions are like *** holes everyone has one and they deal in excrement (hoping you laugh here, see it ties into the poo pooing thing).

TelchineHat_Siphon = {name="Telchine Cap", augments={'"Elemental Siphon"+35','Pet: Damage taken -4%'}}

From my Gearswap. I would post a picture, but SE was mean and took the servers down for maintenance. :D


Yeah, I've never seen over 30 either. I would say it's safe to assume that is the cap until someone can come forth and post a picture of something higher. At some point, we just have to make that decision.


Yeah, anyone can just go post that on the wiki. It doesn't necessarily mean we agree with it, and I agree with you taking it down, especially if it is the case that we all don't believe it to be true with solid evidence.


We're exchanging information. Some of it is speculation, but it's intelligent guessing and using what we know to try to figure out what we don't know. None of the speculation brings us to a final conclusion without some solid proof, especially not one that can be placed on the wiki, but I was at work and was hoping to bounce ideas off of the Summoner community to see what you guys think. I was in no position to go out and do some tests myself, and if no one is going to do the tests at all, then we can only make our best guess as to which to use based on this speculation. Some of us may have different opinions on that, and that's fine, but the more information we each have, the more informed our decision can be.

Also, sorry if I offended you in any way. It was not my intention. :)

A bit defensive perhaps but not offended thanks for saying that tho crevox :)

And I get what you're saying, also glad to see some proof of elemental siphon 35, I have 4 telchine and all capped at exactly 30.

Ah heck if I knew telchine with ES stats wasnt well known, I could have informed that my 4 pieces all had an ES +35 augment.

Edited for bad spelling

One person not knowing is nothing surprising. :p

Just glad to see proof of it cuz I spent many many stones and still haven't seen it even be 31, I knew for a long time it supposedly existed though, just goes back to my point though that sometimes it's hard to even see an augment even if it exists, I have a merlinic body with mab 40 but I guess most people haven't seen that either.

Someone sell Crevox a pair of Voodoo Pumps.

(Voodoo Pumps) (Do you have it?) (Sell?)

I have my 2 pairs. ><

Leathercraft isn't my specialty anyway - Clothcraft is. :)

Siphon stats are known, it ws in the list they put out years ago.
35 for telchine, 25 for keraunos, and my set mirror this. I believe they made a mistake though since i've wasted literally hundreds of stonea and never got a refresh augment which is possible on other weapons and is on the list.

I've seen Pet:MAB+40 on Merlinic (it's actually MAB+15 and MAB+25 but sometimes the stats are rolled together), but never higher than 30 on Grio. I think most people originally assumed Grio can have the same augments as Merlinic (myself included), but it has become apparent that that's not the case.

That may not be what you intended but that's definitely how it came off. For the record, you're the only one who kept bringing up the wiki and what should be stated on the wiki. Crevox was just asking whether one can actually be determined to be superior, and despite acknowledging that the answer is "no," you heavily implied that Nirvana compares unfavorably to a decently-augmented Grio. I get it, you were responding to seeing Nirvana listed as top debuff staff on some wiki, but none of us had that context.

We're all on the same page now I think. Unless someone has proof that Grio can get more than 65 magic acc total (plus 10 INT for black magic debuffs, or even 15 INT possibly) I'm gonna hold my belief that Nirvana is the best debuff staff until more/better information becomes available on the topic, and even if that's proven untrue, that it'll take a one-in-a-million Grio augment to beat it.

Anyway I've digressed; What I do know for a fact is that avatar debuff magic accuracy is through the roof whether it has anything to do with Nirvana or not. For example I have a 100% success on landing Leviathan's Slowga on WoC, but my WHM is something like 1/10 on landing Slow with nearly perfect enfeebling gear. I'm lucky to land it once per fight on WHM. So testing magic accuracy on these is not going to be easy, you'll need targets with high magic evasion. Crevox if you need a RUN to cast on in Ballista, let me know, I'm happy to volunteer.

Any other SMN's do the new Ambuscade yet? I'm seeing information on Perfect Defense being a solid option for Intense. Looking for confirmation on this.

Would really like to! Never done Ballista, but there's a first time for everything. :)

I'll try to see if I can bug you in game when I have some time to do it.

Or misinterpreted, depending on where you're standing. People often take anything less than full agreement to mean you are totally against an idea for some reason even though I said multiple times it was a good option that tends to be ignored. Also that change to the wiki and the conversations here were both happening at almost the same time, so it's a bit hard to believe it's just coincidence as debuff sets are so rarely discussed though it is good they are being discussed more.

One blood pact I am very interested in is Eerie Eye and I've done quite a bit of testing on it with Jopa, and I have made a post about it here and updated bg-wiki with that info a while back now. Now that pact timers are updated, I think if magic acc can be solved for it, that a very strong strategy could evolve with just 2 smn. Everyone already knows the strat to mewing things on rotation to lock out tp moves but this strategy won't work with DD as they feed TP far too fast. I would like to try to use amnesia as in my testing the resistance to amnesia did not build like it did for the silence component, the times were consistently 12-14s. However this pact does not seem to stick well and may have very low magic accuracy. The second problem is overlap, as soon as amnesia is off most mobs will immediately use a tp move with all their built up TP. This means you need something to sew your pacts together with. So what I propose is again a 2 SMN option:

SMN1: Macro with a /p message on it for 11 seconds passed to let you know when the amnesia is about to wear.
SMN2: Macro with a /p message on it for 15 seconds passed to let you know when the shock squall stun is about to wear.
GEO or RDM: Use Languor or Frazzle III
COR: PUP roll
Food: Rolanberry

SMN1 Eerie Eye
11 seconds pass, SMN2 Shock Squall
10 seconds more pass, SMN1 Eerie Eye

The problem with this is stun resist will build (even first level of half duration) then this will fail. If tp gain could be controlled, you could have SMN2 using mewing lullaby instead to reset TP just before eerie eye wears. You could also both use eerie eye on 15 second rotations, then only have 0-2 seconds out of every 15 seconds they can tp move. I've used this move on t1 reisenjima and it seems to stick (using it on the soulflayer for example makes the fight less threatening). When stun resistance builds I actually turn to Eerie Eye since it doesn't have the build resistance problem for amnesia and while spells can be dangerous too the really dangerous moves tend to be tp moves, I just wish there was a way to keep it going forever without turning to say, a 4 smn solution or something (2 for eerie eye and 2 for mewing at the end of eerie eye). This would let DD go crazy on stuff that has very dangerous tp moves.


I think so ya.

I'd like to know more about this too.

Come on now, Verda! I figured you would have been the first SMN to try Intense using the new PD strat. You must not have had your coffee yet. :)

But yeah, I'd like to see the entire strategy actually and not just that PD is being used. Obviously it's a zerg, so the question remains which job(s) are being utilized for this.

Back when we spammed Mes'yohi Haubergeons using the SMN PD method, heavy DD's like mythic WAR SAM's etc were used. I'm wondering if that's still the case now.

I need my DD and support friends to sign on and got work D: Hoping to go full force on it tonight. Any chance to bring Alexander out of his cave is welcome to me, usually it's just fluff after I finished doing an astral kill in escha.

Mochi has an abundance of THF, DNC, and BLU and only 2 well geared WAR one of which doesn't sign on much these days, so it will probably be something like GEO THF DNC BLU SMN WHM when I get to try it will let you know!

Maybe it's just me but I have a hard time seeing light DD's zerging Intense D or VD down within the decaying time frame of Perfect Defense. It's not to suggest they are weak jobs - far from it actually, but are they capable of that kind of DPS output in a short amount of time?

Ya, I think so, want to try it out. Might cut down to 2 DD and use closed skillchains. Volt strike -> mandalic is a nice combo, can always conduit after PD too. Only trying it out will tell for sure.

Receipt

There was also the Jan 2014 update where they wholesale boosted accuracies for pets.
So.... yeah. We already know that +Lv gives Macc in addition to the +stats.

Honestly, people need to read the update notes. (Not talkin about you, Crevox. As, obviously, you are right.)

Which will soon be followed by

{Voodoo Slacks} {Do you have it?}

and about a week later

{Voodoo Dalmatica} {Do you have it?}

:P

On a related note, I've got a set of +1 Apogee (well the 4 main pieces). It's unlikely that I will get a second set soon as throwing 180 million at it doesn't appeal to me right now.

Am I better off going for Path C on most pieces (+25 Mgk Atk, +25 Atk) as a nice balanced set?

I have a Refresh 1 augment on Keraunos. So there's some affirmation for ya.

I'd need a picture. And an idea of what stone you used.

Okay so Ramuh absolutely wrecks Volume 2 VD Ambuscade. I tried a variety of BP's but ended up choosing Volt Strike. The overall damage of the BP + stun effect can (and does) break the lamps quite consistently.

Shock Squall is also effective and can stun TP moves to help reduce some of the nonsense the party may go through.

I haven't tried SMN on Intense yet so if anyone has info on that (not counting the current PUP strat available) please post what you know.

Thanks.

I posted about the setup I used too in the update thread avallon. Thanks for sharing :)