Minimum Wage

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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-18 12:56:14
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Bismarck.Bloodbeat said: »
Well they're supposed to exist in a form of synergy.
You spend n to meet demand, but the demand earns you n(1.5) etc.
I mean, if you have this world view that as soon as people have higher earning power, that's an opportunity to price to propagate, then you're not really running sustainably.
Do you know the difference between nominal vs. real wages are? Minimum wage does nothing to help it. In several studies it was shown that minimum wage increases actually hurts lower-income households. Those studies have also linked minimum wage increases to the shrinking middle class, but I think that may be going too far...(I understand their reasoning, but it would be hard to connect the correlation).

A major factor associated with the reduced hours is attributed to the PPACA redefinition of "full time." So, you can thank the 2010 Congress and Obama for that. There are other minor reasons, but this is a major reason. Anyone who denies this fact is just lying to themselves.

Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Not always. Just file a complaint with the EEoC and they have to investigate.

Unions don't like to fire anyone. Gotta get them dues and don't want to set a base line for what cold be used to fire any other one of their members.

EPL claims turn out to be a lot of he said she said claims though. People make the mistake of not documenting their experiences and then their memory is faulty at best. eeoc commisions take their time investigating to so either the eployee/former employee sit down for settlement talks or they deal with the EEOC commission for years and wait for a ruling lol.
Sure, and the EEoC can file the report and that's that. What happens after that is the legal costs, since the EEoC doesn't represent the "victims" in this case. You still have to prove that you were not fired for reasonable cause.

Unions take longer to fire because there's all sort of paperwork that needs to be filed showing reasonable cause. Larger businesses have the same level of paperwork, but not smaller businesses.

But the EEoC is not judge/jury, it is the regulation body that gives the reports to the employer/ex-employee and let them deal with it.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-18 12:57:28
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Odin.Jassik said: »
And what is the expertise of the person saying that? Would you trust the economic assertions of a landscaper over an economist? Would you take medical advice from a plumber?
Right, a restaurant association that deals with owners have no clue as to what is going on in the restaurant industry
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-03-18 13:04:22
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
And what is the expertise of the person saying that? Would you trust the economic assertions of a landscaper over an economist? Would you take medical advice from a plumber?
Right, a restaurant association that deals with owners have no clue as to what is going on in the restaurant industry

And people who fail at something never blame things erroneously... The rate of business failures in anticipation of changes is coincidental at best and I can't find any published rates of business failures in the SeaTak area, and it seems pretty convenient that a restaurant owners lobby speaks negatively about increasing their costs by paying their employees more.

The tobacco lobby says smoking is harmless, who knows more about tobacco than the tobacco people?
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By Bloodrose 2015-03-18 13:06:41
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The people who believe the tobacco people?
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-18 13:08:18
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
And what is the expertise of the person saying that? Would you trust the economic assertions of a landscaper over an economist? Would you take medical advice from a plumber?
Right, a restaurant association that deals with owners have no clue as to what is going on in the restaurant industry

And people who fail at something never blame things erroneously... The rate of business failures in anticipation of changes is coincidental at best and I can't find any published rates of business failures in the SeaTak area, and it seems pretty convenient that a restaurant owners lobby speaks negatively about increasing their costs by paying their employees more.

The tobacco lobby says smoking is harmless, who knows more about tobacco than the tobacco people?
So, you wanted a study about the effects of minimum wage in a specific area to happen immediately after the minimum wage increased?

Remember, this law took effect in January 1, 2015. It's March 18th, 2015. The fact that so many of these restaurants have gone out of business in such a short time frame, where the only factor that changed was that labor costs increased is something to consider.

But you like to disagree for the sake of disagreeing, so I wouldn't expect you to put two and two together.

I could give you a study from an accredited, peer reviewed source but you will just deny that this study ever existed.
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-03-18 13:08:54
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The EEoC does their own investigation of the facts. This may include records requests, interviews and so forth and so on... when they issue their report and it is not in your favor you're pretty much screwed at that point. They will still have to pursue it but it takes a good deal of the burden.

People should alway seek out an attorney though if they think they have a case.

Unions don't fire people and they don't want their membership fired. They defend their membership when termination comes up.

Firing someone and the process involved really depends on where you are. States vary widely on the rights of employers/employees so you see the process change from venue to venue.

I laugh when they bother making you sign non competes in certain states lol.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-18 13:11:57
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Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
The EEoC does their own investigation of the facts. This may include records requests, interviews and so forth and so on... when they issue their report and it is not in your favor you're pretty much screwed at that point. They will still have to pursue it but it takes a good deal of the burden.

People should alway seek out an attorney though if they think they have a case.

Unions don't fire people and they don't want their membership fired. They defend their membership when termination comes up.

Firing someone and the process involved really depends on where you are. States vary widely on the rights of employers/employees so you see the process change from venue to venue.

I laugh when they bother making you sign non competes in certain states lol.
You are going all over the place. I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me...
 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-03-18 13:12:06
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
And what is the expertise of the person saying that? Would you trust the economic assertions of a landscaper over an economist? Would you take medical advice from a plumber?
Right, a restaurant association that deals with owners have no clue as to what is going on in the restaurant industry

And people who fail at something never blame things erroneously... The rate of business failures in anticipation of changes is coincidental at best and I can't find any published rates of business failures in the SeaTak area, and it seems pretty convenient that a restaurant owners lobby speaks negatively about increasing their costs by paying their employees more.

The tobacco lobby says smoking is harmless, who knows more about tobacco than the tobacco people?
So, you wanted a study about the effects of minimum wage in a specific area to happen immediately after the minimum wage increased?

Remember, this law took effect in January 1, 2015. It's March 18th, 2015. The fact that so many of these restaurants have gone out of business in such a short timeframe, where the only factor that changed was that labor costs increased is something to consider.

But you like to disagree for the sake of disagreeing, so I wouldn't expect you to put two and two together.
Define "so many". They listed what, 3 or 4 places? How many restaurants are in the affected area?
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By Bloodrose 2015-03-18 13:13:00
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
The EEoC does their own investigation of the facts. This may include records requests, interviews and so forth and so on... when they issue their report and it is not in your favor you're pretty much screwed at that point. They will still have to pursue it but it takes a good deal of the burden.

People should alway seek out an attorney though if they think they have a case.

Unions don't fire people and they don't want their membership fired. They defend their membership when termination comes up.

Firing someone and the process involved really depends on where you are. States vary widely on the rights of employers/employees so you see the process change from venue to venue.

I laugh when they bother making you sign non competes in certain states lol.
You are going all over the place. I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me...
I think the back and forth is intentional to provide middle of the road commentary.
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 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-03-18 13:13:59
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
The EEoC does their own investigation of the facts. This may include records requests, interviews and so forth and so on... when they issue their report and it is not in your favor you're pretty much screwed at that point. They will still have to pursue it but it takes a good deal of the burden.

People should alway seek out an attorney though if they think they have a case.

Unions don't fire people and they don't want their membership fired. They defend their membership when termination comes up.

Firing someone and the process involved really depends on where you are. States vary widely on the rights of employers/employees so you see the process change from venue to venue.

I laugh when they bother making you sign non competes in certain states lol.
You are going all over the place. I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me...
Its not all over the place at all lol.

You said they don't have the resources to pursue. I suggested filing an EEoC complaint which alleviates the investigative burden. This doesn't mean that people shouldn't still find representation if they have a good case.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-18 13:14:36
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Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
And what is the expertise of the person saying that? Would you trust the economic assertions of a landscaper over an economist? Would you take medical advice from a plumber?
Right, a restaurant association that deals with owners have no clue as to what is going on in the restaurant industry

And people who fail at something never blame things erroneously... The rate of business failures in anticipation of changes is coincidental at best and I can't find any published rates of business failures in the SeaTak area, and it seems pretty convenient that a restaurant owners lobby speaks negatively about increasing their costs by paying their employees more.

The tobacco lobby says smoking is harmless, who knows more about tobacco than the tobacco people?
So, you wanted a study about the effects of minimum wage in a specific area to happen immediately after the minimum wage increased?

Remember, this law took effect in January 1, 2015. It's March 18th, 2015. The fact that so many of these restaurants have gone out of business in such a short timeframe, where the only factor that changed was that labor costs increased is something to consider.

But you like to disagree for the sake of disagreeing, so I wouldn't expect you to put two and two together.
Define "so many". They listed what, 3 or 4 places? How many restaurants are in the affected area?
4 reported places in the span of 2 months isn't enough, you want more to close down?

Notice the key word "reported."
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-03-18 13:14:37
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I could give you a study from an accredited, peer reviewed source but you will just deny that this study ever existed.
Hmm...

Quote:
January 2015
Quote:
The voluminous literature on minimum wages offers little consensus on the extent to which a wage floor impacts employment. We argue that...
Quote:
We conduct simulations...

Predates the law's partial enactment, based on speculation, and merely an argument rather than a demonstration. That's some compelling confirmation bias right there.
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 Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-03-18 13:17:44
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
And what is the expertise of the person saying that? Would you trust the economic assertions of a landscaper over an economist? Would you take medical advice from a plumber?
Right, a restaurant association that deals with owners have no clue as to what is going on in the restaurant industry

And people who fail at something never blame things erroneously... The rate of business failures in anticipation of changes is coincidental at best and I can't find any published rates of business failures in the SeaTak area, and it seems pretty convenient that a restaurant owners lobby speaks negatively about increasing their costs by paying their employees more.

The tobacco lobby says smoking is harmless, who knows more about tobacco than the tobacco people?
So, you wanted a study about the effects of minimum wage in a specific area to happen immediately after the minimum wage increased?

Remember, this law took effect in January 1, 2015. It's March 18th, 2015. The fact that so many of these restaurants have gone out of business in such a short time frame, where the only factor that changed was that labor costs increased is something to consider.

But you like to disagree for the sake of disagreeing, so I wouldn't expect you to put two and two together.

I could give you a study from an accredited, peer reviewed source but you will just deny that this study ever existed.
That study almost directly contradicts what you are saying.
Quote:
We argue that the minimum wage will impact employment over time, through changes in growth rather than an immediate drop in relative employment levels.
...

Neoclassical economic theories present a clear prediction: as the
price of labor increases, employers will demand less labor. However, many recent studies
testing this prediction have found very small to no effects of the minimum wage on the
level of employment (e.g. Zavodny, 2000; Dube et al., 2010; Giuliano, 2013). One possible
explanation for these findings is that demand for low-wage labor is fairly inelastic; another
is that more complicated dynamics cloud identification of the effect of the minimum wage
on employment.1
...
If the minimum wage is to be evaluated alongside alternative policy instruments for increasing
the standard of living of low-income households, a more conclusive understanding of
its effects is necessary. The primary implication of our study is that the minimum wage does
affect employment through a particular mechanism. This is important for normative analysis
in theoretical models (e.g. Lee and Saez, 2012) and for policymakers weighing the tradeoffs
between the increased wage for minimum wage earners and the potential reduction in hiring
and employment. Moreover, we reconcile the tension between the expected theoretical effect
of the minimum wage and the estimated null effect found by some researchers. We show that
because minimum wages reduce employment levels through dynamic effects on employment
growth, research designs incorporating state-specific time trends are prone to erroneously
estimated null effects on employment. In contrast, the minimum wage significantly reduces
job growth, at least in the context that we are able to analyze.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-18 13:18:40
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Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I could give you a study from an accredited, peer reviewed source but you will just deny that this study ever existed.
Hmm...

Quote:
January 2015
Quote:
The voluminous literature on minimum wages offers little consensus on the extent to which a wage floor impacts employment. We argue that...
Quote:
We conduct simulations...

Predates the law's partial enactment, based on speculation, and merely an argument rather than a demonstration. That's some compelling confirmation bias right there.
A) It was not directed towards Seattle's minimum wage increase. Notice the source location?

B) Do you deny the methodology used to come up to that conclusion?

C) It's one of the more recent studies out there, there are many other studies out there that ties minimum wage increases to higher long-term unemployment. This one directly ties it while most others indirectly do.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-18 13:24:22
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Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
And what is the expertise of the person saying that? Would you trust the economic assertions of a landscaper over an economist? Would you take medical advice from a plumber?
Right, a restaurant association that deals with owners have no clue as to what is going on in the restaurant industry

And people who fail at something never blame things erroneously... The rate of business failures in anticipation of changes is coincidental at best and I can't find any published rates of business failures in the SeaTak area, and it seems pretty convenient that a restaurant owners lobby speaks negatively about increasing their costs by paying their employees more.

The tobacco lobby says smoking is harmless, who knows more about tobacco than the tobacco people?
So, you wanted a study about the effects of minimum wage in a specific area to happen immediately after the minimum wage increased?

Remember, this law took effect in January 1, 2015. It's March 18th, 2015. The fact that so many of these restaurants have gone out of business in such a short time frame, where the only factor that changed was that labor costs increased is something to consider.

But you like to disagree for the sake of disagreeing, so I wouldn't expect you to put two and two together.

I could give you a study from an accredited, peer reviewed source but you will just deny that this study ever existed.
That study almost directly contradicts what you are saying.
Quote:
We argue that the minimum wage will impact employment over time, through changes in growth rather than an immediate drop in relative employment levels.
...

Neoclassical economic theories present a clear prediction: as the
price of labor increases, employers will demand less labor. However, many recent studies
testing this prediction have found very small to no effects of the minimum wage on the
level of employment (e.g. Zavodny, 2000; Dube et al., 2010; Giuliano, 2013). One possible
explanation for these findings
is that demand for low-wage labor is fairly inelastic; another
is that more complicated dynamics cloud identification of the effect of the minimum wage
on employment.1
...
If the minimum wage is to be evaluated alongside alternative policy instruments for increasing
the standard of living of low-income households, a more conclusive understanding of
its effects is necessary. The primary implication of our study is that the minimum wage does
affect employment through a particular mechanism
. This is important for normative analysis
in theoretical models (e.g. Lee and Saez, 2012) and for policymakers weighing the tradeoffs
between the increased wage for minimum wage earners and the potential reduction in hiring
and employment. Moreover, we reconcile the tension between the expected theoretical effect
of the minimum wage and the estimated null effect found by some researchers. We show that
because minimum wages reduce employment levels through dynamic effects on employment
growth, research designs incorporating state-specific time trends are prone to erroneously
estimated null effects on employment. In contrast, the minimum wage significantly reduces
job growth, at least in the context that we are able to analyze.
Quote:
Using three separate state panels of administrative employment data, we find that the minimum wage reduces job growth over a period of several years. These effects are most pronounced for younger workers and in industries with a higher proportion of low-wage workers....

We use three administrative data sets in our analysis: the Business Dynamics Statistics (BDS), the Quarterly Census of Employment and Wages (QCEW), and the Quarterly Workforce Indicators (QWI). These data sets vary in their strengths and weaknesses, discussed at length below, but together they encompass a long (1975-2012) panel of aggregate employment metrics for the population of employers in the United States. Our findings are consistent across all three data sets, indicating that employment declines significantly in
response to increases in the minimum wage over the span of several years.

Finally, we find that the effect on job growth is concentrated in lower-wage industries, among younger workers, and among those with lower levels of education. Much of the existing literature focuses on these groups, though it is important to note that the minimum
wage could affect other industries or elsewhere in the age and education distributions (e.g. Neumark et al., 2004).

I would suggest that you reread the language between yours and my quotes. Your's suggest that the intent of the study (conformation bias) was to disprove a long-term harm towards overall employment, while my quotes show their findings and how it affects long-term growth.
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-03-18 13:31:29
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
And what is the expertise of the person saying that? Would you trust the economic assertions of a landscaper over an economist? Would you take medical advice from a plumber?
Right, a restaurant association that deals with owners have no clue as to what is going on in the restaurant industry

And people who fail at something never blame things erroneously... The rate of business failures in anticipation of changes is coincidental at best and I can't find any published rates of business failures in the SeaTak area, and it seems pretty convenient that a restaurant owners lobby speaks negatively about increasing their costs by paying their employees more.

The tobacco lobby says smoking is harmless, who knows more about tobacco than the tobacco people?
So, you wanted a study about the effects of minimum wage in a specific area to happen immediately after the minimum wage increased?

Remember, this law took effect in January 1, 2015. It's March 18th, 2015. The fact that so many of these restaurants have gone out of business in such a short time frame, where the only factor that changed was that labor costs increased is something to consider.

But you like to disagree for the sake of disagreeing, so I wouldn't expect you to put two and two together.

I could give you a study from an accredited, peer reviewed source but you will just deny that this study ever existed.
That study almost directly contradicts what you are saying.
Quote:
We argue that the minimum wage will impact employment over time, through changes in growth rather than an immediate drop in relative employment levels.
...

Neoclassical economic theories present a clear prediction: as the
price of labor increases, employers will demand less labor. However, many recent studies
testing this prediction have found very small to no effects of the minimum wage on the
level of employment (e.g. Zavodny, 2000; Dube et al., 2010; Giuliano, 2013). One possible
explanation for these findings
is that demand for low-wage labor is fairly inelastic; another
is that more complicated dynamics cloud identification of the effect of the minimum wage
on employment.1
...
If the minimum wage is to be evaluated alongside alternative policy instruments for increasing
the standard of living of low-income households, a more conclusive understanding of
its effects is necessary. The primary implication of our study is that the minimum wage does
affect employment through a particular mechanism
. This is important for normative analysis
in theoretical models (e.g. Lee and Saez, 2012) and for policymakers weighing the tradeoffs
between the increased wage for minimum wage earners and the potential reduction in hiring
and employment. Moreover, we reconcile the tension between the expected theoretical effect
of the minimum wage and the estimated null effect found by some researchers. We show that
because minimum wages reduce employment levels through dynamic effects on employment
growth, research designs incorporating state-specific time trends are prone to erroneously
estimated null effects on employment. In contrast, the minimum wage significantly reduces
job growth, at least in the context that we are able to analyze.
Quote:
Using three separate state panels of administrative employment data, we find that the minimum wage reduces job growth over a period of several years. These effects are most pronounced for younger workers and in industries with a higher proportion of low-wage workers....

We use three administrative data sets in our analysis: the Business Dynamics Statistics (BDS), the Quarterly Census of Employment and Wages (QCEW), and the Quarterly Workforce Indicators (QWI). These data sets vary in their strengths and weaknesses, discussed at length below, but together they encompass a long (1975-2012) panel of aggregate employment metrics for the population of employers in the United States. Our findings are consistent across all three data sets, indicating that employment declines significantly in
response to increases in the minimum wage over the span of several years.

Finally, we find that the effect on job growth is concentrated in lower-wage industries, among younger workers, and among those with lower levels of education. Much of the existing literature focuses on these groups, though it is important to note that the minimum
wage could affect other industries or elsewhere in the age and education distributions (e.g. Neumark et al., 2004).

I would suggest that you reread the language between yours and my quotes. Your's suggest that the intent of the study (conformation bias) was to disprove a long-term harm towards overall employment, while my quotes show their findings and how it affects long-term growth.
My focus is more along the lines emphasized above.
*edit* meh, hit submit instead of preview. The point being, the study you linked states that the effect is over longer term through restricted/altered growth rates, rather than direct impact.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-18 13:46:13
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Bahamut.Milamber said: »
The point being, the study you linked states that the effect is over longer term through restricted/altered growth rates, rather than direct impact.
The study is trying to predict the future using past data. Of course it's going to use altered growth rates, as those are an unknown factor.
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-03-18 13:47:26
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
And what is the expertise of the person saying that? Would you trust the economic assertions of a landscaper over an economist? Would you take medical advice from a plumber?
Right, a restaurant association that deals with owners have no clue as to what is going on in the restaurant industry

And people who fail at something never blame things erroneously... The rate of business failures in anticipation of changes is coincidental at best and I can't find any published rates of business failures in the SeaTak area, and it seems pretty convenient that a restaurant owners lobby speaks negatively about increasing their costs by paying their employees more.

The tobacco lobby says smoking is harmless, who knows more about tobacco than the tobacco people?
So, you wanted a study about the effects of minimum wage in a specific area to happen immediately after the minimum wage increased?

Remember, this law took effect in January 1, 2015. It's March 18th, 2015. The fact that so many of these restaurants have gone out of business in such a short time frame, where the only factor that changed was that labor costs increased is something to consider.

But you like to disagree for the sake of disagreeing, so I wouldn't expect you to put two and two together.

I could give you a study from an accredited, peer reviewed source but you will just deny that this study ever existed.


What is your basis for saying that 4 restaurants closing in 2 months in a city of millions being a lot?
 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-03-18 13:47:52
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
And what is the expertise of the person saying that? Would you trust the economic assertions of a landscaper over an economist? Would you take medical advice from a plumber?
Right, a restaurant association that deals with owners have no clue as to what is going on in the restaurant industry

And people who fail at something never blame things erroneously... The rate of business failures in anticipation of changes is coincidental at best and I can't find any published rates of business failures in the SeaTak area, and it seems pretty convenient that a restaurant owners lobby speaks negatively about increasing their costs by paying their employees more.

The tobacco lobby says smoking is harmless, who knows more about tobacco than the tobacco people?
So, you wanted a study about the effects of minimum wage in a specific area to happen immediately after the minimum wage increased?

Remember, this law took effect in January 1, 2015. It's March 18th, 2015. The fact that so many of these restaurants have gone out of business in such a short timeframe, where the only factor that changed was that labor costs increased is something to consider.

But you like to disagree for the sake of disagreeing, so I wouldn't expect you to put two and two together.
Define "so many". They listed what, 3 or 4 places? How many restaurants are in the affected area?
4 reported places in the span of 2 months isn't enough, you want more to close down?

Notice the key word "reported."
4 restaurants closed down in chicago last week... There are a few places I would like to see closed down but thats besides the point!

Restaurants open and close like gangbusters. 4 restaurants is nowhere near the total amount of restaurants in the affected area. If you can show that this policy is placing an undue burden on the industry as a whole and a significant amount of closures are taking place due solely to the minimum wage increase then you got yourself a starting point. 4 in 2 months actually seems fairly low to me for independent places.
 Sylph.Kuwoobie
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By Sylph.Kuwoobie 2015-03-18 13:56:45
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It's pretty amazing to see this thread still going like this.

Every time there is a conversation about minimum wage or a related topic you will find someone flooding it with "studies" that don't really mean anything and point out all kinds of reasons they are against mundane social safety net there might be that most would consider pretty standard in any somewhat developed country.

You can really tell who the privileged ones are, and which ones have actually had to BE those wretched low wage workers scorned so half-heartedly by the bro-dude who puts the car his mommmy and daddy bought for him in his forum avatar.

Let's see how condiluted with bureaucratic buzz-word vomit back-and forths we can see in this thread before the more conservative posters prove they know better than the Department of Labor.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-18 14:08:58
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Odin.Jassik said: »
What is your basis for saying that 4 restaurants closing in 2 months in a city of millions being a lot?
Reported closures. There are many more.

It's strange that, there are a number of different articles that are reporting pretty much the same thing. Note that there are 3 articles in that last sentence linked.

Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
4 restaurants closed down in chicago last week... There are a few places I would like to see closed down but thats besides the point!

Restaurants open and close like gangbusters. 4 restaurants is nowhere near the total amount of restaurants in the affected area. If you can show that this policy is placing an undue burden on the industry as a whole and a significant amount of closures are taking place due solely to the minimum wage increase then you got yourself a starting point. 4 in 2 months actually seems fairly low to me for independent places.
Again, reported. It may be normal for Chicago and NYC to have restaurants close all the time, but it doesn't seem so in Seattle, and it certainly isn't the case here in San Antonio. Especially established restaurants that have been here for more than a decade.
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-18 14:12:58
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Out of curiousity, how does the opinion change, KN, if instead of the cost of employees rising, the cost of materials rises?

If materials now cost twice as much and a restaurant can't keep up, do you shrug and say, "them's the breaks, if your business was worth keeping open your customers would pay that difference?"

Edit: Or do you suggest cutting your staff, tell the remaining staff to do twice the work for half the pay, and then threaten to fire them and replace them with "eagerly waiting unemployed people" when they dissent?
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-03-18 14:24:46
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Again, reported. It may be normal for Chicago and NYC to have restaurants close all the time, but it doesn't seem so in Seattle, and it certainly isn't the case here in San Antonio. Especially established restaurants that have been here for more than a decade.
Just curious... do you actually follow the restaurant scene in San Antonio or Seattle to know how many restaurants are established or close each year?
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By fonewear 2015-03-18 14:27:06
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I follow the restaurant scene man I'm all over the yelp and the urban spoons !
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-03-18 14:27:35
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
What is your basis for saying that 4 restaurants closing in 2 months in a city of millions being a lot?
Reported closures. There are many more.

It's strange that, there are a number of different articles that are reporting pretty much the same thing. Note that there are 3 articles in that last sentence linked.

Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
4 restaurants closed down in chicago last week... There are a few places I would like to see closed down but thats besides the point!

Restaurants open and close like gangbusters. 4 restaurants is nowhere near the total amount of restaurants in the affected area. If you can show that this policy is placing an undue burden on the industry as a whole and a significant amount of closures are taking place due solely to the minimum wage increase then you got yourself a starting point. 4 in 2 months actually seems fairly low to me for independent places.
Again, reported. It may be normal for Chicago and NYC to have restaurants close all the time, but it doesn't seem so in Seattle, and it certainly isn't the case here in San Antonio. Especially established restaurants that have been here for more than a decade.

Ok, lol at your articles. The first one is a an opinion columnist making claims and backing them up with his own prior opinion column, the second is just a bunch of quotes from the restaurant lobby, again with no actual statistics, and the third is an article from the conservative think-tank that gave us Bush-anomics quoting a conservative lobby which is quoting an interest story about 3 restaurants closing.

Again, what leads you to believe that 3 or 4 or even 10 restaurants closing in the span of a few months in a city of MILLIONS is abnormal? Is there some secret stash of bankruptcy filings that you're using or are you relying on opinion columns and preconceptions?
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-03-18 14:33:27
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fonewear said: »
I follow the restaurant scene man I'm all over the yelp and the urban spoons !
My point being that in San Antonio alone with a breif search there are over 5,000 restaurants. 4 closing in 2 months wouldn't be abnormal.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-18 14:37:07
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Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Out of curiousity, how does the opinion change, KN, if instead of the cost of employees rising, the cost of materials rises?

If materials now cost twice as much and a restaurant can't keep up, do you shrug and say, "them's the breaks, if your business was worth keeping open your customers would pay that difference?"

Edit: Or do you suggest cutting your staff, tell the remaining staff to do twice the work for half the pay, and then threaten to fire them and replace them with "eagerly waiting unemployed people" when they dissent?
If the cost of goods rises (i.e. food prices rise), then price should rise along with it, as everyone is suffering, both the restaurant and the consumer. Consumers would expect that if their food bill is increased, so should the price for prepared food too.

I thought that was common sense....

Now, I'm guessing you want to know why these restaurants aren't just increasing the price of their food, and I have a simple enough answer for you: Competition. Competition will keep prices low for the consumer, and these restaurants are already having low profit margins that it's not possible to stay in business anymore, and instead of waiting for bankruptcy, these owners are getting out while they still can.

Will all restaurants go out of business if minimum wage goes up to $15/hr? No, but there will be fewer restaurants, and the prices will be higher because of it. Expect to see this happen again this time next year and the year after.

Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Again, reported. It may be normal for Chicago and NYC to have restaurants close all the time, but it doesn't seem so in Seattle, and it certainly isn't the case here in San Antonio. Especially established restaurants that have been here for more than a decade.
Just curious... do you actually follow the restaurant scene in San Antonio or Seattle to know how many restaurants are established or close each year?
I have information from the restaurant industry here in San Antonio that I cannot disclose.
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-18 14:39:23
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
If the cost of goods rises (i.e. food prices rise), then price should rise along with it, as everyone is suffering, both the restaurant and the consumer. Consumers would expect that if their food bill is increased, so should the price for prepared food too.

So if food costs rise for everyone, it should be taken in stride and everyone should expect it and just deal with it, but if a different resource (employees) costs rise...then...not okay.

Or is it simply that you can more easily try to lobby away one "problem", but not the other?
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-18 14:40:05
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I have information from the restaurant industry here in San Antonio that I cannot disclose.

Like you'd ever let anyone else slide by with that explenation.

I understand it's likely work-related.

But still.
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-18 14:42:15
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Keep in mind that in all of this, I've stated that merely raising the minimum wage isn't the answer, I just think that the answer is something most conservatives will like even less.
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