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Minimum Wage
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-03-18 11:06:24
Lets raise the minimum wage to 100/hr.
What would be the problem with that?
Let's take every change to the farthest extreme for hyperbolic effect, why not?
Raising the minimum is nearly meaningless, rage the median, then we'll see some change.
Tell me why 100/hr is bad.
The same reason 50/hr is bad... it's grossly above the median wage and would raise the floor for about 95% of earners. The only
reason a minimum wage increase doesn't have a major effect is because it is below the level of almost all earners, which is the same reason it generally has no causal effect on the economy. Given the story that coined this thread, how can you possibly claim raising the min wage has no effect?
The effect is clear and very well documented.
Read the article, bud...
Businesses are closing because the min wage is going up, it could not be any clearer.
Right, and the Fukushima disaster happened when same-sex marriage was legalized in Washington... It could not be any clearer...
Correlation is not causation, we've been over this before.
 Bismarck.Bloodbeat
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By Bismarck.Bloodbeat 2015-03-18 11:10:04
Lets raise the minimum wage to 100/hr.
What would be the problem with that?
Let's take every change to the farthest extreme for hyperbolic effect, why not?
Raising the minimum is nearly meaningless, rage the median, then we'll see some change.
Tell me why 100/hr is bad.
The same reason 50/hr is bad... it's grossly above the median wage and would raise the floor for about 95% of earners. The only
reason a minimum wage increase doesn't have a major effect is because it is below the level of almost all earners, which is the same reason it generally has no causal effect on the economy. Given the story that coined this thread, how can you possibly claim raising the min wage has no effect?
The effect is clear and very well documented.
Read the article, bud...
Businesses are closing because the min wage is going up, it could not be any clearer.
Have you never heard of the marginal propensity to consume?
It's essentially a measure of how much you spend versus how much you save.
Capitalist economies are driven by consumption and it just so happens that the poor have the highest consumption propensity.
It's a simple concept. If you have less money, you are more likely to spend all of if, rather than save or invest.
Now an increased minimum wage has an *early* negative effect on businesses BUT when you enrich those with a high propensity to consume you stimulate demand in services and manufacturing.
Ergo the poor create jobs. It's why all the austerity countries are crappy. They don't get this simplicity :3
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By Lakshmi.Aelius 2015-03-18 11:11:48
Except that now you are imposing age limits indirectly to specific industries, especially food service and retail. Which is the underlying issue at hand.
These industries do not have a large profit margin, and if you are going to impose a minimum wage based by age of the employee, you are pretty much forcing these industries to hire only 16 year olds and fire them when they reach the next level. You are basically creating a Logan's Run situation for employment.
And how are these unskilled people without an education going to get a job if they become unhireable due to age? It would be paramount to forcing them to get an education (which isn't a bad thing) or forcing them into welfare (which will more than likely happen).
No, I think it would make the situation a whole lot worse than raising the minimum wage period.
Denying to hire and fire via age is discrimination entirely. So that's highly illegal and your point is nulled.
Also, I only mentioned to impose limitations on minimum wage based on age and experience.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-18 11:13:33
Bismarck.Bloodbeat said: »Lets raise the minimum wage to 100/hr.
What would be the problem with that?
Let's take every change to the farthest extreme for hyperbolic effect, why not?
Raising the minimum is nearly meaningless, rage the median, then we'll see some change.
Tell me why 100/hr is bad.
The same reason 50/hr is bad... it's grossly above the median wage and would raise the floor for about 95% of earners. The only
reason a minimum wage increase doesn't have a major effect is because it is below the level of almost all earners, which is the same reason it generally has no causal effect on the economy. Given the story that coined this thread, how can you possibly claim raising the min wage has no effect?
The effect is clear and very well documented.
Read the article, bud...
Businesses are closing because the min wage is going up, it could not be any clearer.
Have you never heard of the marginal propensity to consume?
It's essentially a measure of how much you spend versus how much you save.
Capitalist economies are driven by consumption and it just so happens that the poor have the highest consumption propensity.
It's a simple concept. If you have less money, you are more likely to spend all of if, rather than save or invest.
Now an increased minimum wage has an *early* negative effect on businesses BUT when you enrich those with a high propensity to consume you stimulate demand in services and manufacturing.
Ergo the poor create jobs. It's why all the austerity countries are crappy. They don't get this simplicity :3 So, in your example, prices and services do not rise to compensate for the increased labor costs?
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-18 11:14:09
Denying to hire and fire via age is discrimination entirely. So that's highly illegal and your point is nulled. Good luck proving that they were hired/fired based on age.
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By Lakshmi.Aelius 2015-03-18 11:15:15
Denying to hire and fire via age is discrimination entirely. So that's highly illegal and your point is nulled. Good luck proving that they were hired/fired based on age.
This isn't as hard as you think.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-03-18 11:18:23
Raising the minimum is nearly meaningless, rage the median, then we'll see some change. How do you propose to do that?
Frankly, all the numbers are rather arbitrary. The minimum wage could be $.50/hour and still support a family, provided a dollar was actually worth anything (like, say, it was in 1820). Raising the median is easy: pay millionaires even more. You can also raise it by raising the minimum wage, thereby knocking out the bottom-most rungs. Raise it higher than a lot of people are making (seriously, even $10/hour is an insult wage with the present value of a dollar, regardless of how "unskilled" a job may be). You can't just arbitrarily take the 1% of the population making the median income and give them a 10% raise thinking that'll accomplish anything.
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-03-18 11:19:13
Denying to hire and fire via age is discrimination entirely. So that's highly illegal and your point is nulled. Good luck proving that they were hired/fired based on age. Its been done often enough or at least enough eveidence has been put forward to rule in favor of the employee/former employee.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-18 11:19:33
Denying to hire and fire via age is discrimination entirely. So that's highly illegal and your point is nulled. Good luck proving that they were hired/fired based on age.
This isn't as hard as you think. Not really. You can fire somebody for gross incompetence and be able to prove that quite easily, especially for a 16-18 year old who doesn't know better.
Unless they are an absolute hard worker, who shows up all the time on time, works late, does their job right all the time, never steals, never complains, it would be hard to prove that they were fired based by age. If they are the above, the business would generally keep that employee and pay the higher wage.
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By Lakshmi.Aelius 2015-03-18 11:21:04
That's the whole point, KN.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-18 11:21:17
Denying to hire and fire via age is discrimination entirely. So that's highly illegal and your point is nulled. Good luck proving that they were hired/fired based on age. Its been done often enough or at least enough eveidence has been put forward to rule in favor of the employee/former employee. It would require a whole slew of legal work and research that these kids generally cannot afford to do. And that evidence can be used against them quite easily.
Not saying that I condone the practice, I'm just pointing out the flaw in firing people. Even unions aren't immune to this, it just takes longer to fire somebody for gross incompetence.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-18 11:23:09
That's the whole point, KN. Businesses would generally keep those types of employees and fire those who don't meet the qualifications anyway. The problem is, with minimum wage work, the businesses are just lucky that the employee even bothered to show up.
Have you seen how understaffed some of these places are now? It's an employee's market now, not an employer's market like it was a few years ago.
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By Bismarck.Bloodbeat 2015-03-18 11:24:49
Bismarck.Bloodbeat said: »Lets raise the minimum wage to 100/hr.
What would be the problem with that?
Let's take every change to the farthest extreme for hyperbolic effect, why not?
Raising the minimum is nearly meaningless, rage the median, then we'll see some change.
Tell me why 100/hr is bad.
The same reason 50/hr is bad... it's grossly above the median wage and would raise the floor for about 95% of earners. The only
reason a minimum wage increase doesn't have a major effect is because it is below the level of almost all earners, which is the same reason it generally has no causal effect on the economy. Given the story that coined this thread, how can you possibly claim raising the min wage has no effect?
The effect is clear and very well documented.
Read the article, bud...
Businesses are closing because the min wage is going up, it could not be any clearer.
Have you never heard of the marginal propensity to consume?
It's essentially a measure of how much you spend versus how much you save.
Capitalist economies are driven by consumption and it just so happens that the poor have the highest consumption propensity.
It's a simple concept. If you have less money, you are more likely to spend all of if, rather than save or invest.
Now an increased minimum wage has an *early* negative effect on businesses BUT when you enrich those with a high propensity to consume you stimulate demand in services and manufacturing.
Ergo the poor create jobs. It's why all the austerity countries are crappy. They don't get this simplicity :3 So, in your example, prices and services do not rise to compensate for the increased labor costs?
Well they're supposed to exist in a form of synergy.
You spend n to meet demand, but the demand earns you n(1.5) etc.
I mean, if you have this world view that as soon as people have higher earning power, that's an opportunity to price to propagate, then you're not really running sustainably.
Lakshmi.Aelius
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By Lakshmi.Aelius 2015-03-18 11:24:51
To fire someone depends on what state you live in. For instance, I live in the state of Michigan. There's a work law here that says we are a "Work at will" state. With that said, our job is not very secured and most, if not all Michigan jobs, do not require a satisfactory reason for termination.
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-18 11:28:53
Have you seen how understaffed some of these places are now?
This is their choice. At least in the case of the places around me. I know several retail workers. Their hours get cut and when they're working they're expected to cover for gaps in scheduling, all the while they and their coworkers are asking for more hours.
Maybe this is more anecdotal stuff based on Pennsylvania, and maybe it's different elsewhere, but around here at least there are plenty of people "employed" and willing to work, but their employers don't schedule them, looking to save money by minimizing staffing.
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By Lakshmi.Aelius 2015-03-18 11:32:42
The reason for understaffing is because of actual profit. Business owners take a huge hit if no one is buying their product. When I worked at Subway as a Manager, I found out how much my owner made a week and he made the stupid mistake of not paying people overtime which costed him tons of money in fees and paybacks. After he took care of it all, he cut the workforce nearly 50% and still demanded that do the same job as before.
(One of the reasons why I no longer work there)
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-03-18 11:33:06
Denying to hire and fire via age is discrimination entirely. So that's highly illegal and your point is nulled. Good luck proving that they were hired/fired based on age. Its been done often enough or at least enough eveidence has been put forward to rule in favor of the employee/former employee. It would require a whole slew of legal work and research that these kids generally cannot afford to do. And that evidence can be used against them quite easily.
Not saying that I condone the practice, I'm just pointing out the flaw in firing people. Even unions aren't immune to this, it just takes longer to fire somebody for gross incompetence. Not always. Just file a complaint with the EEoC and they have to investigate.
Unions don't like to fire anyone. Gotta get them dues and don't want to set a base line for what cold be used to fire any other one of their members.
EPL claims turn out to be a lot of he said she said claims though. People make the mistake of not documenting their experiences and then their memory is faulty at best. eeoc commisions take their time investigating to so either the eployee/former employee sit down for settlement talks or they deal with the EEOC commission for years and wait for a ruling lol.
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By Bismarck.Bloodbeat 2015-03-18 11:35:34
The reason for understaffing is because of actual profit. Business owners take a huge hit if no one is buying their product. When I worked at Subway as a Manager, I found out how much my owner made a week and he made the stupid mistake of not paying people overtime which costed him tons of money in fees and paybacks. After he took care of it all, he cut the workforce nearly 50% and still demanded that do the same job as before.
(One of the reasons why I no longer work there)
My employer likes to play chess with staff. I'm currently on my fourth permanent placement in two years.
The upper management don't sugar the plum either, they tell the site managers that they expect the profits to be better than last year or it's coming out of the wage budget.
I expect it's not unusual practise.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-03-18 11:36:01
he cut the workforce nearly 50%)
they change the locks on your store if you only pay half of your rent... and don't even get me started on suppliers.
real unemployment is so high I can hire someone to laugh at you for losing your job at subway, cut his pay in half and if he doesn't like it find someone else.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-03-18 11:37:09
Raising the minimum is nearly meaningless, rage the median, then we'll see some change. How do you propose to do that?
Frankly, all the numbers are rather arbitrary. The minimum wage could be $.50/hour and still support a family, provided a dollar was actually worth anything (like, say, it was in 1820). Raising the median is easy: pay millionaires even more. You can also raise it by raising the minimum wage, thereby knocking out the bottom-most rungs. Raise it higher than a lot of people are making (seriously, even $10/hour is an insult wage with the present value of a dollar, regardless of how "unskilled" a job may be). You can't just arbitrarily take the 1% of the population making the median income and give them a 10% raise thinking that'll accomplish anything.
You can raise the mean/average wage by paying millionaires more or raising the minimum a bit, but the median wage requires skilled trades that pay well. We have the jobs, the problem is the skills gap. I proposed encouraging public schools to adopt trade programs as an alternative to 11/12th grade general ed. A lot of countries have like 9-10 years of compulsary general ed, then either professional/university prep or trade programs for the last 2-3 years. They also have trade programs with placement available through public colleges.
Run some public information campaigns against the culture of disgracing tradesmen and give young people a path to said trades. That would go a long way in broadening our middle class and increasing median incomes while increasing standards of service. Granted, there still needs to be people wanting houses built for a carpenter to put food on the table, but plumbers, electricians, and mechanics all need houses, too. The more people with money to get their cars fixed, the more mechanics with money to buy houses, the more carpenters with money to buy cars, etc.
By fonewear 2015-03-18 11:37:25
We have an interruption with the thread:
YouTube Video Placeholder
Bismarck.Bloodbeat
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By Bismarck.Bloodbeat 2015-03-18 11:38:19
he cut the workforce nearly 50%)
they change the locks on your store if you only pay half of your rent... and don't even get me started on suppliers.
real unemployment is so high I can hire someone to laugh at you for losing your job at subway, cut his pay in half and if he doesn't like it find someone else.
Well, there' a theory that the reserve army of labour are an intentional entity that exist purely to maintain the lowest possible standard of working conditions, wages and rights included.
Lakshmi.Aelius
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By Lakshmi.Aelius 2015-03-18 11:38:52
I can hire someone to laugh at you for losing your job at subway.
I didn't lose it. I quit after I found a better paying job.
By Bloodrose 2015-03-18 11:40:36
They don't do the same job as before, they have to take on an increased workload and perform jobs or tasks that would be evenly split among the employee workforce.
When that employee workforce is cut in half, they end up making less money for an increased workload, despite the money being the same amount per hour.
I had to prep a kitchen line in under an hour at one place, despite all the tasks and requirements that made it a 2 hour job already due to lack of employees in the morning shift. Yet they somehow managed to have 4 unskilled, but highly paid (80k a year) front of house managers on at all times. (I would have fired 2 of them and hired 4 new staffers since the front of house managers couldn't drum up *any* business*
Also reading this thread made me think of doing this:
[+]
Lakshmi.Aelius
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By Lakshmi.Aelius 2015-03-18 11:45:28
Everybody should have assistants.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-03-18 11:46:56
Bismarck.Bloodbeat said: »Well, there' a theory that the reserve army of labour are an intentional entity that exist purely to maintain the lowest possible standard of working conditions, wages and rights included.
dude... you should have seen how ridiculous employee demands got in the 90s... they wanted every *** thing from morning yoga to free child care... fuxing family leave act was the final straw.
Now they are back in their places begging for scraps like the curs they are!
/whipcrack
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-03-18 11:55:03
Have you seen how understaffed some of these places are now?
This is their choice. At least in the case of the places around me. I know several retail workers. Their hours get cut and when they're working they're expected to cover for gaps in scheduling, all the while they and their coworkers are asking for more hours.
Maybe this is more anecdotal stuff based on Pennsylvania, and maybe it's different elsewhere, but around here at least there are plenty of people "employed" and willing to work, but their employers don't schedule them, looking to save money by minimizing staffing. Where I live, virtually everything from retail to food service to manufacturing is woefully under-staffed and has been since the 2008 crash. Since we weren't hit as hard as places like Detroit, every business cut staff and has felt no interest in replacing them.
It's not like there's a lack of desperate people willing to work for bad wages, either.
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By Bismarck.Bloodbeat 2015-03-18 12:07:13
Yeah, that's the standard in Britain too.
For each vacancy there's around 200 applicants.
I admit I'm not well-versed with policy on tackling unemployment in the U.S, but I'd find it hard to believe it could be any less fit-for-purpose than the U.K's failure to sort it.
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-03-18 12:10:06
Lets raise the minimum wage to 100/hr.
What would be the problem with that?
Let's take every change to the farthest extreme for hyperbolic effect, why not?
Raising the minimum is nearly meaningless, rage the median, then we'll see some change.
Tell me why 100/hr is bad.
The same reason 50/hr is bad... it's grossly above the median wage and would raise the floor for about 95% of earners. The only
reason a minimum wage increase doesn't have a major effect is because it is below the level of almost all earners, which is the same reason it generally has no causal effect on the economy. Given the story that coined this thread, how can you possibly claim raising the min wage has no effect?
The effect is clear and very well documented.
Read the article, bud...
Businesses are closing because the min wage is going up, it could not be any clearer.
Right, and the Fukushima disaster happened when same-sex marriage was legalized in Washington... It could not be any clearer...
Correlation is not causation, we've been over this before. Did you by chance read these word in the OP?
Quote: The magazine went on to report that one “major factor affecting restaurant futures in our city is the impending minimum wage hike.”
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-03-18 12:31:44
Did you by chance read these word in the OP?
Quote: The magazine went on to report that one “major factor affecting restaurant futures in our city is the impending minimum wage hike.”
And what is the expertise of the person saying that? Would you trust the economic assertions of a landscaper over an economist? Would you take medical advice from a plumber?
This is why we can't have a serious conversation with you. There is no bar of competency when something supports the idea you already have. No ridiculous fallacy can be debunked because you demand infinite credibility from the opposition and virtually none in support.
[+]
omg what a surprise...
Quote: In a few weeks, Seattle’s new, highest in the country, $15 per hour minimum wage will go into effect. Like many liberal policies, it was passed by City Hall with the best of intentions. The only problem is, in the end, it may do more harm than good for many.
Private businesses, unlike government entities (which, in theory, can always raise taxes or borrow), must make more than they spend in order to pay the rent, make payroll, keep the lights on, pay their business taxes, and, heaven forbid, have some left over for the owners and investors who are taking the risk and putting in the long hours.
Earlier this month, Seattle Magazine asked, Why Are So Many Seattle Restaurants Closing Lately?:
Last month—and particularly last week— Seattle foodies were downcast as the blows kept coming: Queen Anne’s Grub closed February 15. Pioneer Square’s Little Uncle shut down February 25. Shanik’s Meeru Dhalwala announced that it will close March 21. Renée Erickson’s Boat Street Café will shutter May 30 after 17 years with her at the helm…What the #*%&$* is going on? A variety of things, probably—and a good chance there is more change to come.
The magazine went on to report that one “major factor affecting restaurant futures in our city is the impending minimum wage hike.” Anthony Anton, president and CEO of Washington Restaurant Association, told the magazine, “It’s not a political problem; it’s a math problem.” He estimates that restaurants usually have a budget breakdown of about 36 percent for labor, 30 percent for food costs, and 30 percent to cover other operational costs. That leaves 4 percent for a profit margin. When labor costs shoot up to say 42 percent, something has to give.
Restaurants can take actions to adjust, such as raise their prices, acquire cheaper ingredients, and cut their operating hours and labor force. However, all those actions generate reactions from the public which can still lead to lower revenues for the restaurant and, for some, the decision to close their doors.
The Washington Policy Center explains:
When prices rise consumers seek alternatives, a behavior economists call the “substitution effect,” which results in lower demand for the higher-priced product. In the case of restaurants, consumers have access to the ultimate substitution – they can stay home.
A spokesman for the Washington Restaurant Association told the Washington Policy Center, “Every [restaurant] operator I’m talking to is in panic mode, trying to figure out what the new world will look like.”
Seattle had a foretaste of the effect of the $15 minimum wage earlier this year when Prop 1, which made a $15 minimum wage for those working in parking garages and hotels near Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, took effect. A reporter asked a cleaning woman and a part-time banquet server, who work in a hotel near SEATAC, what they thought of the new law:
The cleaning woman responded, “It sounds good, but it’s not good,”
“Why?” I asked.
“I lost my 401k, health insurance, paid holiday, and vacation,” she responded. “No more free food,” she added.
The hotel used to feed her. Now, she has to bring her own food. Also, no overtime, she said. She used to work extra hours and received overtime pay.
“What else?” I asked.
“I have to pay for parking,” she said.
I then asked the part-time waitress, who was part of the catering staff.
“Yes, I’ve got $15 an hour, but all my tips are now much less,” she said. Before the new wage law was implemented, her hourly wage was $7. But her tips added to more than $15 an hour. Yes, she used to receive free food and parking. Now, she has to bring her own food and pay for parking.
The Seattle Times reported that a Clarion Hotel recently made the decision to close its full service restaurant (laying off 15 people) and let go of a night desk clerk and a maintenance worker. It also plans to raise its rates by 10 percent to offset increased labor costs.
As the April 1 deadline approaches, the residents of Seattle will have a front row seat to the effects of the $15 per hour minimum wage, but early indicators suggest it will not be as positive as City Hall intended.
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