Minimum Wage
Minimum Wage
Yea ignoring things don't make them go away. Just look at Obama. I ignore him he is still there !
[+]
I like to confront problems whether they are big or small.
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
How on earth does they'll lose more than that without a contract factor in?
Sounds like bullying/fear tactics from unions.
Sounds like bullying/fear tactics from unions.
Bullying?
You think their yearly salary and/or benefits/PTO won't drop like a rock the second collective bargaining goes out the window?
Do unions pay their members when they go on strike?
And again, you're stating that a job with no benefits and reduced pay is better than fighting for fair wages and benefits.
King tries saying that this isn't the 1800s, and the conditions aren't the same, but you're using the exact same mindset of the old coal barons. "Abuse whoever you can however you can and give up nothing."
[+]
Bloodrose said: »
***. The right wingers are just as much entitlement queens as the right - the only difference is what they believe they are entitled to.
The typical right winger believes they are entitled to "MY WAY OR GTFO" and "NOT IN MY BACKYARD!" bible-thumping ***. Abortion can be, and in many cases, is seen as taking responsibility. Can't afford to bring a child into the world? They don't. The Right believes that people should be forced to have children if they become pregnant, no matter the means, then when that child is born... *** EM! That's ignoring the right's responsibility of forcing people to have kids. Because it's part of their limited understanding of the biblical passages that claim all life is sacred... until it's born. Then it's everyman, woman, and child for themselves.
More and more conservatives in the bible belt abuse welfare than the left wingers. They have a greater welfare population than the left. But given the right's tendency... "I'm a 'Murican! I deserve to be taken care of!" and who the *** takes care of those people? Oh right, the left.
The typical right winger believes they are entitled to "MY WAY OR GTFO" and "NOT IN MY BACKYARD!" bible-thumping ***. Abortion can be, and in many cases, is seen as taking responsibility. Can't afford to bring a child into the world? They don't. The Right believes that people should be forced to have children if they become pregnant, no matter the means, then when that child is born... *** EM! That's ignoring the right's responsibility of forcing people to have kids. Because it's part of their limited understanding of the biblical passages that claim all life is sacred... until it's born. Then it's everyman, woman, and child for themselves.
More and more conservatives in the bible belt abuse welfare than the left wingers. They have a greater welfare population than the left. But given the right's tendency... "I'm a 'Murican! I deserve to be taken care of!" and who the *** takes care of those people? Oh right, the left.
abortion is not responsibility. responsibility would have been to either take care of the child or to find someone that could.
and don't confuse republicans with conservatives. conservatives do not abuse welfare. to give you an example of how a conservative should be I will share with you a bit of my history:
my grandparents had four kids, were dirt poor working at a crap job in a grocery store, and yet didn't get an abortion even though they knew they would have trouble caring for their kids. they still managed to through hard work, determination, and wit (e.g.: without any government programs) to become a business owner and multi-millionaires. So my family is rich but still conservative. as soon as I was 18 I was kicked out of the house and expected to earn my own way. I had to pay for college myself (couldn't get loans because my family is rich and so racked up massive credit card debt to pay for it). after college I remember being unemployed and homeless living on the streets for a few months. I worked crap jobs through labor-ready to get a pay check each day. This is where I learned how costly not properly planning can be (It was a very good learning experience for my future job in the Army). Since they give you a paycheck at the end of the day I remember that first saturday where I got my check but couldn't cash it because the banks close early, and I couldn't cash it sunday either. So I didn't get to eat that weekend. Well, the day-to-day work wasn't going to pay for the college debt I had so thinking about what I had to do I joined the military. Also helped that I have always been an adventurer/explorer (and why I like RPGs so much) and so the job was pretty much my ideal job, but that's a different story. I quickly paid off my debt, and I fully paid off my $265k house in six years. Despite adverse conditions no one in my family used welfare, government subsidies, or abortion. That is the way of the conservative. Not those other people you speak of who may call themselves on the right when they are not. You are your actions.
[+]
Ah, a good old by-my-bootstraps story to get the "conservatives" frothed up into a fervor.
Who doesn't love that?
Who doesn't love that?
[+]
I joined a union so I wouldn't have to think for myself. It was the greatest thing I've ever done.
I pay the union to think for me. Sure I disagree with a lot of what goes on but it feels go to be a part of something !
I pay the union to think for me. Sure I disagree with a lot of what goes on but it feels go to be a part of something !
You've already confused with how they should be, and how the majority actually are.
I have plenty of similar stories from my family's history, the history of friends in the US, and their families, that directly contradict everything you just said. And they vary in stance on the political spectrum.
By US political standards, I'm far more conservative in nature than most of the conservatives on this website, and in even in US politics. But I would argue that I would be a progressive conservative. I can look at the reality instead of shy away from it the way a lot of conservative posters here do.
Ravael and King, and in a 50-50 situation, Chaos, do the same, but they are conservatives through and through. While I don't deny arguing from what is considered, or mistaken as a liberal view, there does need to be dissenting opinions to create discussion. And to bring together opposing facts, to find a middle ground.
However, you still remain under the assumption that conservatives do nothing that the liberals do. Truth is, both sides do it, and both sides have members that take things to the extremes. As I, and KN pointed out, the left works as hard, as reliably, and as dependably as the right. In one response, you tried not to deny it, then in a follow up to my post, you made a claim the explicitly denied that is what they do. There is also no denying that the majority of support for those that need it, comes from the left, but there is also no denying the majority that receive it, are conservatives.
Edit: You also used a "No True Scotsman" fallacy to aid in your anecdote. Basically saying that no true conservative would ever act or portray themselves in such a manner - which is clearly false.
I didn't specify republicans for the sole reason that it isn't just limited to republicans, but covers the spectrum of conservatives as a whole.
I have plenty of similar stories from my family's history, the history of friends in the US, and their families, that directly contradict everything you just said. And they vary in stance on the political spectrum.
By US political standards, I'm far more conservative in nature than most of the conservatives on this website, and in even in US politics. But I would argue that I would be a progressive conservative. I can look at the reality instead of shy away from it the way a lot of conservative posters here do.
Ravael and King, and in a 50-50 situation, Chaos, do the same, but they are conservatives through and through. While I don't deny arguing from what is considered, or mistaken as a liberal view, there does need to be dissenting opinions to create discussion. And to bring together opposing facts, to find a middle ground.
However, you still remain under the assumption that conservatives do nothing that the liberals do. Truth is, both sides do it, and both sides have members that take things to the extremes. As I, and KN pointed out, the left works as hard, as reliably, and as dependably as the right. In one response, you tried not to deny it, then in a follow up to my post, you made a claim the explicitly denied that is what they do. There is also no denying that the majority of support for those that need it, comes from the left, but there is also no denying the majority that receive it, are conservatives.
Edit: You also used a "No True Scotsman" fallacy to aid in your anecdote. Basically saying that no true conservative would ever act or portray themselves in such a manner - which is clearly false.
I didn't specify republicans for the sole reason that it isn't just limited to republicans, but covers the spectrum of conservatives as a whole.
[+]
fonewear said: »
I joined a unionchurch so I wouldn't have to think for myself. It was the greatest thing I've ever done.
Well we gave up our dental plan for a keg a beer. In retrospect we shouldn't be so short sighted !
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
So, go ahead, show us a non-profit organization that blows all of their money on their CEO.
That was largely sarcasm, but I can tell you that UPMC's CEO makes over $6M/year. Yes it's a hospital system, but it's still classified as a private non-profit. That's obviously a miniscule percentage of the money they work with being one of the nation's leading hospital systems, but still.
That's a lot for a non-profit.
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Right and the government never allocates funds properly so starving the beast and giving them as little money as possible is the answer.
Because that money will get where it's supposed to go that way, right?
What you're basically saying is, "the government will *** it up and the money won't get to the people who need it, so just let the billionaires and millionaires keep their money to themselves. It still won't get to the people who need it, but they can at least vicariously enjoy their owners living the high life."
Wrong, the top 20% pays just under 70% of all federal income taxes. In that report, the top 1% pays about 63% of all federal taxes for the entire nation.
The bottom 40% pays less than 0% of all federal taxes. They receive more back from refundable credits than they put in through payroll taxes.
I thought we went over this before?
Leviathan.Protey said: »
Bloodrose said: »
The same thing can be said, and is true about the people on the right. So it's really dishonest to say that about only the left wingers. Which is what KN was getting at.
What you are saying, by claiming "as typical of the right", means that it is not typical of the left. When it's not even remotely true.
It is because the left works as hard, as dependably as the right, that they feel it is their responsibility to provide for those who can not provide for themselves for various reasons - which encompasses both sides, not just the left wingers that can't provide, not just the right. But for everyone.
What you are saying, by claiming "as typical of the right", means that it is not typical of the left. When it's not even remotely true.
It is because the left works as hard, as dependably as the right, that they feel it is their responsibility to provide for those who can not provide for themselves for various reasons - which encompasses both sides, not just the left wingers that can't provide, not just the right. But for everyone.
the left doesn't. it isn't typical of them. don't want to take responsibility for your actions? abortion it away. don't feel like earning your keep? welfare it away. want to have things that you didn't earn? government subsidies program it away. conservatives do not do such things.
Or is this one of those things that if you do them you're no longer considered a conservative even if you identify as one?
[+]
Leviathan.Protey said: »
abortion is not responsibility. responsibility would have been to either take care of the child or to find someone that could.
Right, the entirety of a political ideology hinges on one topic...
Abortion is one example of the left viewing a situation as a personal choice, often the responsible thing is not to birth a child you have no means or intention to raise properly.
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
So, go ahead, show us a non-profit organization that blows all of their money on their CEO.
That was largely sarcasm, but I can tell you that UPMC's CEO makes over $6M/year. Yes it's a hospital system, but it's still classified as a private non-profit. That's obviously a miniscule percentage of the money they work with being one of the nation's leading hospital systems, but still.
That's a lot for a non-profit.
I haven't followed that particular issue, but it wouldn't surprise me.
They've got a big legal battle going with Highmark right now too because UPMC was both a medical system AND an insurance provider, Highmark was -just- an insurance provider, but bought out the other health system in the Pittsburgh area, West Penn Allegheny.
So basically they're at each other's throats, threatening (and actually enacting, now) not taking each other's insurance, etc.
It's really not good for their collective patients, many of which have doctors in both systems because...that's the whole point of choice.
They're both being incredibly big babies about it.
Luckily my primary health system is a smaller system and I can see specialists in either system if needed.
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Leviathan.Protey said: »
Bloodrose said: »
The same thing can be said, and is true about the people on the right. So it's really dishonest to say that about only the left wingers. Which is what KN was getting at.
What you are saying, by claiming "as typical of the right", means that it is not typical of the left. When it's not even remotely true.
It is because the left works as hard, as dependably as the right, that they feel it is their responsibility to provide for those who can not provide for themselves for various reasons - which encompasses both sides, not just the left wingers that can't provide, not just the right. But for everyone.
What you are saying, by claiming "as typical of the right", means that it is not typical of the left. When it's not even remotely true.
It is because the left works as hard, as dependably as the right, that they feel it is their responsibility to provide for those who can not provide for themselves for various reasons - which encompasses both sides, not just the left wingers that can't provide, not just the right. But for everyone.
the left doesn't. it isn't typical of them. don't want to take responsibility for your actions? abortion it away. don't feel like earning your keep? welfare it away. want to have things that you didn't earn? government subsidies program it away. conservatives do not do such things.
Or is this one of those things that if you do them you're no longer considered a conservative even if you identify as one?
He's playing the No True Scotsman card.
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Right and the government never allocates funds properly so starving the beast and giving them as little money as possible is the answer.
Because that money will get where it's supposed to go that way, right?
What you're basically saying is, "the government will *** it up and the money won't get to the people who need it, so just let the billionaires and millionaires keep their money to themselves. It still won't get to the people who need it, but they can at least vicariously enjoy their owners living the high life."
Wrong, the top 20% pays just under 70% of all federal income taxes. In that report, the top 1% pays about 63% of all federal taxes for the entire nation.
The bottom 40% pays less than 0% of all federal taxes. They receive more back from refundable credits than they put in through payroll taxes.
I thought we went over this before?
hold the phone.... (not you foney)
If you joined the military to pay off your college loans then you used a government subsidy by having the military pay off your debt there Mister Highhorse.
Leviathan.Protey said: »
I joined the military. I quickly paid off my debt, and I fully paid off my $265k house in six years. Despite adverse conditions no one in my family used government subsidies.
If you joined the military to pay off your college loans then you used a government subsidy by having the military pay off your debt there Mister Highhorse.
[+]
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
So, go ahead, show us a non-profit organization that blows all of their money on their CEO.
That was largely sarcasm, but I can tell you that UPMC's CEO makes over $6M/year. Yes it's a hospital system, but it's still classified as a private non-profit. That's obviously a miniscule percentage of the money they work with being one of the nation's leading hospital systems, but still.
That's a lot for a non-profit.
I haven't followed that particular issue, but it wouldn't surprise me.
They've got a big legal battle going with Highmark right now too because UPMC was both a medical system AND an insurance provider, Highmark was -just- an insurance provider, but bought out the other health system in the Pittsburgh area, West Penn Allegheny.
So basically they're at each other's throats, threatening (and actually enacting, now) not taking each other's insurance, etc.
It's really not good for their collective patients, many of which have doctors in both systems because...that's the whole point of choice.
They're both being incredibly big babies about it.
Luckily my primary health system is a smaller system and I can see specialists in either system if needed.
But my point is that most charities aren't run like that. They aren't run like a business first and foremost, but those that are, the major players of research and betterment of human society, tend to have directors and officers not paid over their FMV of what they would have been paid going to a similar private industry job. Most are being paid at a discount just because of the charity itself.
The Military also has other subsidy programs that pay for your education in agreement to spending X amount of years in service until that debt is paid off.
I'd join the military but I'm too old and I don't like taking orders from people in uniforms !
[+]
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Right and the government never allocates funds properly so starving the beast and giving them as little money as possible is the answer.
Because that money will get where it's supposed to go that way, right?
What you're basically saying is, "the government will *** it up and the money won't get to the people who need it, so just let the billionaires and millionaires keep their money to themselves. It still won't get to the people who need it, but they can at least vicariously enjoy their owners living the high life."
Wrong, the top 20% pays just under 70% of all federal income taxes. In that report, the top 1% pays about 63% of all federal taxes for the entire nation.
The bottom 40% pays less than 0% of all federal taxes. They receive more back from refundable credits than they put in through payroll taxes.
I thought we went over this before?
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Sorry had to look up the actual numbers.
Federal funding goes primarily into funding of state ran organizations under various acts.
Where as cash assistance and medical assistance is solely on the state.
Federal funding goes primarily into funding of state ran organizations under various acts.
Where as cash assistance and medical assistance is solely on the state.
I haven't had a chance to respond to it yet.
But these funds are going through the state to state run organizations by federal grants. It is still federal taxpayer money going to these programs.
State picks up the tab in some of it, but not much, and certainly not at the level required to be self-sufficient. Which is what the federal government wants to do.
The whole funding deal was done this way to give more power to the federal government in regards of threatening all of the states to play by their (federal) rules or lose their funding for these programs that their (state) citizens are not only used to, but are now demanding from the state.
Some states can completely wean themselves off of the federal assistance, like Texas can, but they don't because then they (Texas) would have to find another way to pay for these programs that are going out of control. It's not an uncontrollable situation as of yet, but it will be shortly, and if this state were to turn blue, it would go out of proportion in an instant. Davis even promised to double the welfare outlays and create a state income tax just so she could get votes from people who would benefit from it, in the last Texas gubernatorial election.
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
How on earth does they'll lose more than that without a contract factor in?
Sounds like bullying/fear tactics from unions.
Sounds like bullying/fear tactics from unions.
Bullying?
You think their yearly salary and/or benefits/PTO won't drop like a rock the second collective bargaining goes out the window?
Do unions pay their members when they go on strike?
Unions usually negotiate for all the employee contracts so things like anual raises or other benefits that workers didn't have before are still passed on to people that opt out of being in the union.
[+]
Bloodrose said: »
What about big titted women in uniforms?
Pretty sure I have that porn already bookmarked !
[+]
Bloodrose said: »
There is also no denying that the majority of support for those that need it, comes from the left, but there is also no denying the majority that receive it, are conservatives.
Edit: You also used a "No True Scotsman" fallacy to aid in your anecdote. Basically saying that no true conservative would ever act or portray themselves in such a manner - which is clearly false.
I didn't specify republicans for the sole reason that it isn't just limited to republicans, but covers the spectrum of conservatives as a whole.
Edit: You also used a "No True Scotsman" fallacy to aid in your anecdote. Basically saying that no true conservative would ever act or portray themselves in such a manner - which is clearly false.
I didn't specify republicans for the sole reason that it isn't just limited to republicans, but covers the spectrum of conservatives as a whole.
No True Scotsman is not necessarily a fallacy. For instance if I were to say no Christian worships Satan, it's because by definition Christians worship God. In the act of worshiping Satan you in fact cease to be a Christian. And so for what I said, conservatives by definition do not get abortions, abuse welfare, etc. By doing so they cease to be conservatives. Like I said, you are your actions. You can call yourself whatever you want, it doesn't necessarily mean you are what you call yourself.
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
But my point is that most charities aren't run like that. They aren't run like a business first and foremost, but those that are, the major players of research and betterment of human society, tend to have directors and officers not paid over their FMV of what they would have been paid going to a similar private industry job. Most are being paid at a discount just because of the charity itself.
Oh, yeah. Like I did say, it was largely sarcasm. Not entirely, but largely.
Even UPMC isn't all bad. They really do a lot of wonderful research and work. They're one of the premier health outfits in the country, front-runners in cancer and cardiovascular research as well as concussion research, and they sponsor a lot of local stuff.
They just tend to be very, very profitable for a "non-profit".
Bloodrose said: »
The Military also has other subsidy programs that pay for your education in agreement to spending X amount of years in service until that debt is paid off.
any way you slice it it's still a subsidy.
/revokes Protey's conservative card
NO SOUP FOR YOU!
[+]
fonewear said: »
Can you send me a PM when you are done with unions are great blah blah blah discussion. That would be great !
[+]
Leviathan.Protey said: »
For instance if I were to say no Christian worships Satan, it's because by definition Christians worship God. In the act of worshiping Satan you in fact cease to be a Christian.
Again, you failed.
All Christians believe in Satan/The Devil, even if they do not worship him.
You are therefore equating Christians to Satanists. Which is an even more flawed argument than your first.
Also, every "No True Scotsman" is a fallacious argument.
Christian Conservatives do, and have had, abortions. Primarily so to save the life of the mother. But it is still an abortion. And they are still conservatives.
You are then equating your idea as to what a "true conservative" is in your mind, onto the whole spectrum, and are forcing an entitled version of what you consider true, onto everyone.
All Christians believe in Satan/The Devil, even if they do not worship him.
You are therefore equating Christians to Satanists. Which is an even more flawed argument than your first.
Also, every "No True Scotsman" is a fallacious argument.
Christian Conservatives do, and have had, abortions. Primarily so to save the life of the mother. But it is still an abortion. And they are still conservatives.
You are then equating your idea as to what a "true conservative" is in your mind, onto the whole spectrum, and are forcing an entitled version of what you consider true, onto everyone.
[+]
All FFXI content and images © 2002-2024 SQUARE ENIX CO., LTD. FINAL
FANTASY is a registered trademark of Square Enix Co., Ltd.