Minimum Wage

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Minimum Wage
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 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-19 13:45:43
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
No, but we are one of the only countries who require mandatory overtime for holidays.

And if we didn't, how many employers would give it?

Some, of course. Because as you've said, they're not all terrible. But many would not.

The Best (And Worst) Countries For Workers

Score some points for Chaos. Serbia ranks a full two places ahead of the United States.
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 Asura.Reichleiu
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By Asura.Reichleiu 2015-03-19 13:45:54
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Heh.. Most college students who finish their four year degree and get their first office job make at or less than 30k/year. ($15/hr)

I work as a web designer at an ad agency and make a decent amount of money, but when I was first hired out of college (2011) I was making 27k/year with no benefits and only 5 days vacation time.

Minimum wage should be higher, but $15/hr is ridiculous.
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By fonewear 2015-03-19 13:47:52
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15 is ridiculous min wage should start at 25 dollars an hour !
 Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-03-19 13:48:07
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Or we could learn from history for once and try to forestall all of this by treating people like people, paying people an appropriate wage in recompense for their toil and their ability, and generally not being the greediest *** possible.
Wait, you are saying that we aren't paying people a wage they deserve for their skillset and ability?

Care to name one job where the employee is not getting paid the fair market value of that job?
Employees under H-1Bs? Not necessarily true for all cases, but there is a significant amount of H-1B fraud in IT/programming.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-19 13:48:34
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Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
No, but we are one of the only countries who require mandatory overtime for holidays.

And if we didn't, how many employers would give it?

Some, of course. Because as you've said, they're not all terrible. But many would not.

The Best (And Worst) Countries For Workers

Score some points for Chaos. Serbia ranks a full two places ahead of the United States.
Any surprise of this "study" coming from a group of people solely dependent on union dues and "donations"?

Oh wait, they cannot be in it for the money....

I won't deny that most of those places deserve the ranking they receive, but I question their placement of the US.
 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-19 13:48:44
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Care to name one job where the employee is not getting paid the fair market value of that job



According to you and Nausi -- at least, as far as I recall in prior discussions -- a "fair market value" is entirely defined as what the employer judges to be the smallest amount he can pay someone based on the supply of people he can find to do the work and give the job to someone else if his current worker will not work for that.

Which basically renders any request for better conditions, pay, or benefits illegitimate to you.
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-03-19 13:48:47
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More money for less work plus more vacation time and more benefits. Sounds legit. Who wouldn't want that, except for the people who have to pay for it, which includes you by higher prices.
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-03-19 13:49:23
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Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Abolish the minimum wage and make union membership optional.
So China pretty much?

Chaos loves the Chinese system as far as I can tell. Mostly because he makes money off of them, I suspect, so he has no problem with the way they do things as long as he gets his?

This is conjecture on my part, but that's how it seems to me.
Who doesn't benefit from Chinese labor, including the Chinese?
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By fonewear 2015-03-19 13:49:41
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Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
More money for less work plus more vacation time and more benefits. Sounds legit. Who wouldn't want that, except for the people who have to pay for it, which includes you by higher prices.

You speak of government jobs do you work for Congress ?
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-19 13:51:19
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Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Or we could learn from history for once and try to forestall all of this by treating people like people, paying people an appropriate wage in recompense for their toil and their ability, and generally not being the greediest *** possible.
Wait, you are saying that we aren't paying people a wage they deserve for their skillset and ability?

Care to name one job where the employee is not getting paid the fair market value of that job?
Employees under H-1Bs? Not necessarily true for all cases, but there is a significant amount of H-1B fraud in IT/programming.
There is an influx of IT jobs, but a greater influx of IT trained people, and that's creating a lower wage value of those jobs.

Ask your wife what happens to prices when supply exceeds demand.
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-03-19 13:51:45
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Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
No, but we are one of the only countries who require mandatory overtime for holidays.

And if we didn't, how many employers would give it?

Some, of course. Because as you've said, they're not all terrible. But many would not.

The Best (And Worst) Countries For Workers

Score some points for Chaos. Serbia ranks a full two places ahead of the United States.
Quote:
Scoring a "1" (best category): Belgium, Denmark, Netherlands, Norway, Lithuania
Scoring a "2": Spain, Serbia, Tunisia, Russian Federation, Rwanda
Scoring a "3": Poland, Paraguay, Namibia, Israel, Ghana
Scoring a "4": United States, Iran, Iraq, Haiti, Honduras
Scoring a "5" (worst category): Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, India, Turkey.
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 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-19 13:53:04
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I won't deny that most of those places deserve the ranking they receive, but I question their placement of the US.

I could see the U.S. moving up one spot just because the other places it rates with suffer from some serious societal/cultural problems that stand to make things much, much worse for at least some employees (women, minorities).

But still. Even accounting for any potential bias (not that you're going to get an entirely impartial view on this in light of the fact that funding has to come from somewhere), the U.S. is certainly not the best country in the world to be an employee rather than an employer.

And the idea that "everyone should strive for the goal of being an employer", while a nice, Patriotic, nationalistic concept...isn't attainable or sustainable as a practice.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-19 13:53:04
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Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
a "fair market value" is entirely defined as what the employer judges to be the smallest amount he can pay someone based on the supply of people he can find to do the work and give the job to someone else if his current worker will not work for that.
So, to you, fair market value is determined by only one party.

Never mind that the employee also has a say in their value of their job.

You can go anywhere and ask for $100k/year with benefits working as a Janitor. If you manage to find one, good for you, but you will be looking for a very long time.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-03-19 13:53:40
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Care to name one job where the employee is not getting paid the fair market value of that job?
Given "fair market value" in your world refers to the market value of unicorn farts, this is a pointless question.

Nice going missing the point of learning from history. I'm not surprised.
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 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-19 13:54:18
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Ask your wife what happens to prices when supply exceeds demand.

You band into an international cartel, create a monopoly, gag production and pump as much effort and money as you can into artifically inflating demand until that demand because legitimate.

See: Oil, diamonds.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-03-19 13:55:47
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Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Who doesn't benefit from Chinese labor, including the Chinese?
I assume the "Chinese" in this question are the party oligarchs rather than the Foxconn employees leaping to their deaths.
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 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-19 13:56:05
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
So, to you, fair market value is determined by only one party.

Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
According to you and Nausi -- at least, as far as I recall in prior discussions -- a "fair market value" is entirely defined as what the employer judges to be the smallest amount he can pay someone based on the supply of people he can find to do the work and give the job to someone else if his current worker will not work for that.

Paraphrasing and taking partial quotes out of context gets us nowhere. But this is from one of those who jumped all over the "you didn't build that" partial quote and ran with it. Soooo...

Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Never mind that the employee also has a say in their value of their job.

You can go anywhere and ask for $100k/year with benefits working as a Janitor. If you manage to find one, good for you, but you will be looking for a very long time.

Yeah, you will be. But making $25-30k/year with benefits shouldn't be unattainable for them, either.
 Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-03-19 13:56:29
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Or we could learn from history for once and try to forestall all of this by treating people like people, paying people an appropriate wage in recompense for their toil and their ability, and generally not being the greediest *** possible.
Wait, you are saying that we aren't paying people a wage they deserve for their skillset and ability?

Care to name one job where the employee is not getting paid the fair market value of that job?
Employees under H-1Bs? Not necessarily true for all cases, but there is a significant amount of H-1B fraud in IT/programming.
There is an influx of IT jobs, but a greater influx of IT trained people, and that's creating a lower wage value of those jobs.

Ask your wife what happens to prices when supply exceeds demand.
She'd probably say that it would depend on the elasticity of the supply.
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By fonewear 2015-03-19 13:57:07
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Hey those suicides were worth it you see the new iphone 6 son !

Every time a Chinese workers jumps to their death a 14 year old girl gets an iphone !
 Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-03-19 13:57:40
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Her exact answer, now that I actually asked her the question:
Kara said:
Depends
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-03-19 14:04:56
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fonewear said: »
Hey those suicides were worth it you see the new iphone 6 son !

Every time a Chinese workers jumps to their death a 14 year old girl gets an iphone !
Every time you don't buy an iPhone you save a life.
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By fonewear 2015-03-19 14:06:41
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It's true Apple is responsible for the deaths of people just working hard enough to be able to afford the very phone they are making !

When you get caught in the suicide net you should get a free iphone for failing to die though !
 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-19 14:06:42
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Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
fonewear said: »
Hey those suicides were worth it you see the new iphone 6 son !

Every time a Chinese workers jumps to their death a 14 year old girl gets an iphone !
Every time you don't buy an iPhone you save a life.

My family has saved so many lives!

Except my mother.

My mother apparently murders a Chinese person every 20 months.
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By fonewear 2015-03-19 14:08:18
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Foxconn installed suicide-prevention netting at some facilities

Sounds like fun if you can land on the net !
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-03-19 14:08:49
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By fonewear 2015-03-19 14:09:31
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I have no evidence to support this claim, but Apple is the greatest company of all time !

I heard it on TV so you know it has to be true.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-19 14:15:31
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Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Her exact answer, now that I actually asked her the question:
Kara said:
Depends
Given no other factors changed.
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-03-19 14:23:01
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-19 14:26:26
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Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Care to name one job where the employee is not getting paid the fair market value of that job?
Given "fair market value" in your world refers to the market value of unicorn farts, this is a pointless question.

Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
So, to you, fair market value is determined by only one party.

Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
According to you and Nausi -- at least, as far as I recall in prior discussions -- a "fair market value" is entirely defined as what the employer judges to be the smallest amount he can pay someone based on the supply of people he can find to do the work and give the job to someone else if his current worker will not work for that.

Paraphrasing and taking partial quotes out of context gets us nowhere. But this is from one of those who jumped all over the "you didn't build that" partial quote and ran with it. Soooo...
I think there comes to a point in our lives where it's time to agree to disagree, because no matter what evidence is presented to you, whatever explanations are given, neither of you are going to answer anything more than "No U" in any responses. I mean, would it really hurt either of you to have even a tiny sliver of an open mind and realize that maybe your prejudices are wrong?

Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Nice going missing the point of learning from history. I'm not surprised.
Sorry, but your story has no basis in today's reality. I read it, and I tried to apply any of the issues at that time to events in America today and it just doesn't exist.

Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Yeah, you will be. But making $25-30k/year with benefits shouldn't be unattainable for them, either.
And those are there, you just have to find them before anyone else does.

But you aren't demanding that. You are demanding that all jobs need a wage increase by 10% without any basis of reasoning behind the increases. Your labor won't increase (in fact, you are demanding for less work at the same time, which is also a form of wage increase), your skill set isn't increasing, so, what changed between yesterday and today that justifies a large increase of wages, in your mind? Nothing? Just because we should be blessed to have you here?

Sure, we will just take our business elsewhere.

But let me ask you this: You go to two different shoe stores, find the exact same pair of shoes these stores are selling, but Store A is selling those shoes at double the price than what Store B is selling, will you still buy those shoes at Store A out of principle?

Knowing you, you will say yes just out of principle
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By Bahamut.Kara 2015-03-19 14:28:54
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Her exact answer, now that I actually asked her the question:
Kara said:
Depends
Given no other factors changed.
Which theoritical good/item example are you keeping factors constant for?

If for example toliet paper increases in price, the quantity demanded is not going to decrease very much (depending on price change and competitors price) because it is an inelastic good, for the most part. It is considered a necessary item in the course of daily life.

If the item is an exotic sports car, demand is likely to decrease. But if there is fantastic marketing, cultural cult following, and the market is doing well, demand could stay the same or increase.

If it is a candy bar and price increased, demand is likely to decrease unless sellers can make use of impulse buying behavior (e.g. Next to cashiers where people wait in line), marketing, etc, then demand could increase or stay constant.

The simple microeconomics theory of supply and demand is not so simple when using real data and testing.
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