~First And Final Line Of Defense V2.0~ |
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~First and Final Line of Defense v2.0~
SimonSes said: » You are underestimate the value of Store TP and overestimate the value of multi attack and crit damage. 8 STP, 3 PDL is not going to beat out 4TA, 6 crit damage, 36-56 attack, especially when the STP is mitigated by the loss of the multistrike, and youre hard pressed to get benefit out of the PDL given you lost 36-56 att. Thats not even getting into the STR loss. Its not even going to be a small loss of DPS, its going to be noticable to the player. Tauret/Shining One/Naegling are all viable, meta, non-rema weapons, as are a lot of SU5s.
I would also note that there's no way to tell from the buff itself if it was afterglow from a shield, or a weapon. Or even which shield. So it would be exceedingly awkward to code gearswap rues for hybrid sets around it.
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What's really funny to me is this entire chain of nonsense was kicked off by someone suggesting that afterglow'd Ochain helps make PLD more attractive than RUN
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Bismarck.Nyaarun said: » Tauret/Shining One/Naegling are all viable, meta, non-rema weapons, as are a lot of SU5s. Valefor.Yandaime said: » I mean I guess it could be helpful for the DDs that don't have an REMA weapon? But they're either going to have very good Hybrid sets/React files that will cap their DTs anyway or they'll have literally nothing at all making the meager "Shield Glow" meaningless either way. Ragnarok.Martel said: » I would also note that there's no way to tell from the buff itself if it was afterglow from a shield, or a weapon. Or even which shield. So it would be exceedingly awkward to code gearswap rues for hybrid sets around it. Ragnarok.Lowen said: » What's really funny to me is this entire chain of nonsense was kicked off by someone suggesting that afterglow'd Ochain helps make PLD more attractive than RUN Unless you have 50% DT, neither of the buffs are wasted. Even with "proper DT sets", you arent going to be sitting in 50% DT.
Bismarck.Nyaarun said: » Unless you have 50% DT, neither of the buffs are wasted. Sigh.. this is hilarious and depressing at the same time(Deprarious?) so this will be my last swing at this. It will almost always be wasted because...
tldr; the benefits of the Shield Glow are so narrow/esoteric (There's a better word for this) that in order for them to bear fruit would call the competency of your group into question because it really only benefits the unprepared. Bismarck.Nyaarun said: » Even with "proper DT sets", you arent going to be sitting in 50% DT.
Also, most jobs can fully cap raw DT now as well. I think all jobs can now?
Like how on earth did you come up with this statement? I could get behind adding sphere effects to ilv 119 shields. 119 aegis/ochain and leave them how they are. Add new more dynamic and situational effects/stats to the new stuff. Shields with regain/magic evasion/cure potency received/-enmity spheres would be pretty neato.
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Because its a fact? You arent going to be sitting in 50% DT at all times. Even if you want to argue "but its on a macro", you arent going to hit that macro 10/10 times. Youre always susceptible to chip damage, and any free DT is free DT and an easier job on your backline to keep you alive.
And not everyone has a rema weapon, or uses a rema weapon. Ambu weapons and SU5s are on par, or in some cases flat out better than the rema available to the job anwyay. Sylph.Banhammer said: » I could get behind adding sphere effects to ilv 119 shields. 119 aegis/ochain and leave them how they are. Add new more dynamic and situational effects/stats to the new stuff. Shields with regain/magic evasion/cure potency received/-enmity spheres would be pretty neato. I like this idea better. Genuine sphere effects would be pretty good and wouldn’t be hampered by weapons so that’d work nicely. A sphere effect with enmity down would be especially helpful for PLD.
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Sylph.Banhammer said: » I could get behind adding sphere effects to ilv 119 shields. 119 aegis/ochain and leave them how they are. Add new more dynamic and situational effects/stats to the new stuff. Shields with regain/magic evasion/cure potency received/-enmity spheres would be pretty neato. The problem with this idea is that any shield not named Ochain has a pathetic block rate, even with Reprisal up. At that point you may as well not even have a shield equipped. The first thing they should have done in terms of PLD adjustments was fix block rate+ to work like Inquatarta.
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Valefor.Yandaime said: » Sylph.Banhammer said: » I could get behind adding sphere effects to ilv 119 shields. 119 aegis/ochain and leave them how they are. Add new more dynamic and situational effects/stats to the new stuff. Shields with regain/magic evasion/cure potency received/-enmity spheres would be pretty neato. I like this idea better. Genuine sphere effects would be pretty good and wouldn’t be hampered by weapons so that’d work nicely. A sphere effect with enmity down would be especially helpful for PLD. Second, should you have a co tank, and I often do in divergence, you'll be nerfing their enmity gain with your sphere. In single party, solo tank, content it would be pretty cool. But I would want some way to decide if I want the effect up aside from just equipping the shield.
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Hmmm good point....
Sphere.. Magic then? PLD only? :P Lol that’s not a serious idea, it’d be flirting with the GEO Role. Bismarck.Nyaarun said: » SimonSes said: » You are underestimate the value of Store TP and overestimate the value of multi attack and crit damage. 8 STP, 3 PDL is not going to beat out 4TA, 6 crit damage, 36-56 attack, especially when the STP is mitigated by the loss of the multistrike, and youre hard pressed to get benefit out of the PDL given you lost 36-56 att. Thats not even getting into the STR loss. Its not even going to be a small loss of DPS, its going to be noticable to the player. I havent said Malignance is better, I said the loss in dps is low and it is. In case of items you mentioned (adhemar HQ head vs Malignance) I should probably check for SU5 or Ambu weapon instead of Veret and Godhands, since Aftermath issues. That being said Ambu and SU5 would have even lower loss, so it doesnt matter. Veret, Impetus up, Chaos/Sam, capped attack, AM3, Vsmite at 1000TP+: Adhemar HQ B: 10934 dps Malignance head: 10751 dps So yes, Adhemar B is better, but by 1.7% Now funny thing, that I havent even expected Godhands, Impetus down, Footwork up, chaos/sam, capped attack, Tornado Kick at 2000: Adhemar HQ B: 9452 dps Malignance head: 9468 dps Yep, Malignance is actually marginally a dps gain for that setup XD I can already predict your response "Sheet is wrong, what I feel is more accurate" :)
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Yeah I'm not really trying to solve the PLD problem, which in my experience is generating enough enmity to keep mobs off DPS.
Just create some reason to move away from the Aegis/Ochain duopoly in every situation. Priwen is the closest thing they've gotten to getting creative with a shield and it just tries to mimic Ochain. SimonSes said: » Bismarck.Nyaarun said: » SimonSes said: » You are underestimate the value of Store TP and overestimate the value of multi attack and crit damage. 8 STP, 3 PDL is not going to beat out 4TA, 6 crit damage, 36-56 attack, especially when the STP is mitigated by the loss of the multistrike, and youre hard pressed to get benefit out of the PDL given you lost 36-56 att. Thats not even getting into the STR loss. Its not even going to be a small loss of DPS, its going to be noticable to the player. I havent said Malignance is better, I said the loss in dps is low and it is. In case of items you mentioned (adhemar HQ head vs Malignance) I should probably check for SU5 or Ambu weapon instead of Veret and Godhands, since Aftermath issues. That being said Ambu and SU5 would have even lower loss, so it doesnt matter. Veret, Impetus up, Chaos/Sam, capped attack, AM3, Vsmite at 1000TP+: Adhemar HQ B: 10934 dps Malignance head: 10751 dps So yes, Adhemar B is better, but by 1.7% Now funny thing, that I havent even expected Godhands, Impetus down, Footwork up, chaos/sam, capped attack, Tornado Kick at 2000: Adhemar HQ B: 9452 dps Malignance head: 9468 dps Yep, Malignance is actually marginally a dps gain for that setup XD I can already predict your response "Sheet is wrong, what I feel is more accurate" :) Sheets wrong. Theres zero chance that is in any way, shape, or form, accurate. And you cannot tell me, with a straight face, that it is, and expect me to take you seriously. Just from the raw stats you lose swapping over. 8 STP and at best pulling out some miracle and getting the 3% damage increase while also having less att from gear to work with isnt going to come close to everything else you got from adhemar without getting spammed with debuffs. Especially with impetus up, the 6% crit damage bonus will beat out the 3% damage bonus alone. Go argue about MNK dps in the MNK thread.
Sylph.Banhammer said: » Yeah I'm not really trying to solve the PLD problem, which in my experience is generating enough enmity to keep mobs off DPS. Just create some reason to move away from the Aegis/Ochain duopoly in every situation. Priwen is the closest thing they've gotten to getting creative with a shield and it just tries to mimic Ochain.
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He’s obviously trolling at this point.
Shields AG effects are 99.8% useless there is no changing that. This game is mathed to death.
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Bismarck.Nyaarun said: » Sheets wrong. Theres zero chance that is in any way, shape, or form, accurate. And you cannot tell me, with a straight face, that it is, and expect me to take you seriously. Just from the raw stats you lose swapping over. 8 STP and at best pulling out some miracle and getting the 3% damage increase while also having less att from gear to work with isnt going to come close to everything else you got from adhemar without getting spammed with debuffs. Especially with impetus up, the 6% crit damage bonus will beat out the 3% damage bonus alone. Ok maybe I should try to explain this to you better. That will be a last try seriously. That might help you to understand. Veret, Am3, Impetus up, Vsmite at 1000+ etc. : No head at all: 10046DPS Adhemar HQ B: 10934DPS Malignance: 10751DPS So Adhemar in this example is in fact better. Looking at just DPS added by both head pieces, Adhemar is better by 26%. So in vacuum Adhemar is much better. The problem that you dont understand is that 26% more dps added by Adhemar is only 1.7% more for overall total dps. If you dont understand this now, I dont know how to explain it better. EDIT: Sorry Martel and other Paladins. That was my last offtop comment in that discussion. Ragnarok.Martel said: » Go argue about MNK dps in the MNK thread. Sylph.Banhammer said: » Yeah I'm not really trying to solve the PLD problem, which in my experience is generating enough enmity to keep mobs off DPS. Just create some reason to move away from the Aegis/Ochain duopoly in every situation. Priwen is the closest thing they've gotten to getting creative with a shield and it just tries to mimic Ochain. I'm not saying move away from it period, just add some reason to use other shields. You don't need an Aegis or Ochain in every situation but as it stands there is 0 reason not to use them in favor of something else. You could create some pretty crazy shields that don't have to be better than Aegis or Ochain for their respective tasks. You COULD have a shield that gives All Weapon skills: Enmity +15, Sphere Enmity Down, All stats + for example. Would you equip that for Unity or Omen or Ambuscade? I would. Their idea that Srivatsa is a DPS shield is ridiculous. They also need to keep adding new shields, something they just said themselves. So far, every shield for the past 10 years has failed to live up to Aegis and Ochain. It's pretty ridiculous honestly and they know it. That's why they haven't ilv'ed them. I'm just spit balling ideas, not saying this is a fix of any sort or way. Literally saw the posts about AG shields and just posted an idea on a whim. Its less that Srivatsa is the DPS shield and more that its the "kitchen sink" shield.
You have pretty much a Dring, 5% chance to straight annul damage, some enmity, high def, extra HP, MP, and a healthy dose of acc and att. You could probably easily swap out a piece of souv gear for that and put something else in its place without losing HP/enmity comparatively. That probably can account for something, not that i know what. The only real issue i see with srivatsa is that aegis is just too strong in general, and needed to tank specific fights due to how much it reduces magical damage. If nothing else, Srivatsa is probably the "fun" shield. Ochains niche is the MP battery that blocks all the time, aegis floors magic damage. Srivatsa just tries to be the all in one shield that doesnt do enough tank wise with its gimmick. Without Ochain or Aegis, you're taking more damage than a RUN. No other shield will ever be able to compete until they do something to let non-Ochain shields reach a reasonable block rate. It doesn't matter what kind of nifty effects you put on other shields when at the end of the day, Ochain (and to a lesser extent, Aegis) is the only thing keeping PLD even remotely comparable to RUN as a tank in the defensive sense of the word.
Why do you care so much about block rate when anything dangerous is spamming TP ability and magic anyways?
Sylph.Banhammer said: » Why do you care so much about block rate when anything dangerous is spamming TP ability and magic anyways? In all fairness, Srivatsa is supposed to be the more DD leaning sword.... and shield blocking is a big part of pld TP gen, due to constant actions instead of swinging sword. It focuses a lot on defense just to give acc and att, but doesnt help the main issue of pld TP gen isnt that great if youre constantly casting spells. Sylph.Banhammer said: » Why do you care so much about block rate when anything dangerous is spamming TP ability and magic anyways? Because Ochain can block physical tp moves. Edit: any shield can block tp moves but ochain has the highest chance.
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Shiva.Eightball said: » Sylph.Banhammer said: » Why do you care so much about block rate when anything dangerous is spamming TP ability and magic anyways? Because Ochain can block physical tp moves. Edit: any shield can block tp moves but ochain has the highest chance. Also blocking physical tp move, blocks all debbufs that this tp move can apply. SimonSes said: » Shiva.Eightball said: » Sylph.Banhammer said: » Why do you care so much about block rate when anything dangerous is spamming TP ability and magic anyways? Because Ochain can block physical tp moves. Edit: any shield can block tp moves but ochain has the highest chance. Also blocking physical tp move, blocks all debbufs that this tp move can apply. Yes, as long as you block all hits on that tp move, which is why high blockrate on Ochain is so good for pretty much anything not requiring Aegis. Sylph.Banhammer said: » Why do you care so much about block rate when anything dangerous is spamming TP ability and magic anyways?
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