~First And Final Line Of Defense V2.0~

It means shields are likely where they were before, highest level content Srivatsa is likely best for Phys, Ochain is best for phys up to 145ish, and u still using Aegis when ***really matters anyways.

I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. What makes you think Srivatsa is going to be better than Ochain on higher level content? That's utterly backward. The only place it has a chance to beat Ochain is lower level content where its block rate can keep up.

Oh and also, it's pretty clear that Srivatsa does not hit 100% dmg reduction on block.

Block dmg- testing is hell though, so I'm not sure how much I'll get into trying to precisely quantify this.

Oh, another note on reprisal. The skill+ is an active effect, meaning it modifies your skill constantly even as the base value changes. Or to put it another way, the skill+ is not determined solely on cast, so there's no point in swapping in skill+ on cast in an attempt to net more skill.

After a quick tour of the new augments, for paladin 2 new features attracted me strongly
Ajax +1
Odnowa Earring +1

new protect boost seems to be:
+44 def when casted with Aegis
+44 def when casted with Ochain
+143 def when casted with Priwen
+165 def when casted with Srivatsa

(seems to be index on shield def value)

I get why y'all are annoyed they didn't really buff Aegis/Ochain, but this clearly was an update intended to make non-REMA PLD slightly more relevant for endgame. Typically nobody even considers bringing a new PLD because even an Aettir RUN is usually better.

Of course, this update didn't really fix anything, but the whole Protect, shield skill+ and increased DEF on ilevel shields thing was obviously never aimed at endgame PLDs. One can only hope SE will someday get their heads out of their *** and properly address the issues.

Ya but how many non rema pld do you run into at this point in the game? Most pld make aegis as a starter. Like you said maybe SE will get its head out of *** and listen to the plds concerns but I feel pld is RIP and nothing SE wants to do will ever fix it. Run is the love child sadly run may get buffs before they ever fix pld stuff.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess there are many JP PLDs, even if fresh PLD has become unpopular in the EN community. From what I can tell JP players don't immediately work toward REMA like we do.

Ya thats kinda my thinking at the end of the day like all this stuff was pretty much for non endgame pld for the most. I can't see a someone taking pld to endgame and thinking aegis and ochain not needed and having a truly good time.

best joke ever




Stay alive is not the N°1 problem as PLD ^^

I was just curious how you came to those numbers in terms of about the expected block rate increase with shield skill? I haven't seen anything in regards to mob combat skill when trying to determine block rate for shields by using the formula on BG wiki. I was trying to pin down an expected block rate in Wave 3 (150) content with different shields without just manually figuring out the rate over time through hard data of how many times I actually blocked. Also for gearing choices to see if things like adding 21 shield skill in idle tank set was really worth it or not because I'm not sure how much block rate that would translate to. Although with Reprisal changes that may be worthwhile to do now.

Also in regards to Protect defense value, I did some minor testing earlier when the servers came up, and no matter what shield I used to cast in, I got the same defense bonus. Switching down to a lower shield didn't seem to affect the bonus defense value that I got from Protect V either (which means the bonus value is applied at the time of casting and stays regardless if you take your shield off or not which is to be expected). It seemed to give me a 75% total bonus from the base Protect V value of 220, for 385 total when cast on myself. With Sheltered Ring I was getting 396 defense from Protect V.

I haven't cast it on others yet, but the defense bonus just seems to be a static value rather than based on your shield defense? Some others are reporting different numbers than I got.

My findings with Reprisal were also the same when I tested it as servers came up. +15% shield skill (rounded up from 14.96% at various different values) as an active effect so casting in extra shield skill did nothing.

Like girls say, size matter

I don't think anyone has any good data on monster combat skill. I certainly don't. The best I've seen are guesses based on player skill growth.

What I do have is lots of actual test samples, and a fairly accurate skill to block rate conversion rate.

So, since I already knew the blockrate for Ochain on 139 mobs, I just needed to account for the extra skill, then apply the reprisal block mod to the total.

btw, I tend to use skill*0.215=block rate change. It has matched very well with a great many test samples in the past.

So, for Rev feet+3, without reprisal would be, 21*0.215=4.515% block rate.

But for reprisal things are now extra complicated.
skill*ReprisalSkilllMod=newSkill * 0.215 * 1.5 = block gains. (use 3 rather than 1.5 if priwen.)
So
21*1.15=24.15 I don't think we can have decimal skill value, so floor to 24. 24*0.215=5.16*1.5=7.74% block rate with reprisal up.

It's not bad gains really. But Rev+3 over Souveran+1 is a hard sell. Rev has low HP, no PDT, no enmity. It's just the skill and converts dmg to MP. I guess it does also have slight higher def and VIT. but again, hard sell.
I dunno what to tell you about your protect results. Even test I've done now, and I've tested 5~6 different shields now, has been consistent with the following.

ShieldDef+ProVBase+sheltered bonus*PLD550JPGift
So say srivatsa+sheltered on master PLD would go;
150+220+10*1.1=418 def for the PLD.

I already use AF+3 boots in idle set now along with Path D Souveran hands. The hp isn't a big deal because you need to lower your idle hp anyway due to fast cast, and I'm overcapped DT in my idle tank set anyway so I don't need any in the feet slot. It doesn't do well to have 3600 idle hp when your fast cast set drops you to 3k, making you effectively just have 3k hp always because Paladin casts a lot. My fast cast set has around 3050 hp and I keep my idle tank set around 3100 so I have very little hp fluctuation.

You also don't need enmity in idle set unless I'm missing something. The damage to MP is pretty nice when stacked with other sources like Ambuscade cape, Ethereal Earring, and Flume Belt +1 for 20% damage back as MP. It would be even more nice with Ochain but I almost never take damage on block.

I was just considering swapping Ethereal for shield skill earring and going with Empyrean head for even more shield skill in idle/super tank set, and slightly more damage to MP.

That said, how much does block rate change when doing 150 content though? Would work roughly the same in regards to adding more skill? I'm not sure how much block rate dips against 150 mobs compared to 139. Against pretty much anything but Dynamis D, Ochain with Reprisal should either cap you, or come close to capping now with the change it looks like.

It helps with CE retention.

Yes, as it turns out I am in fact familiar with the concept of balancing HP between sets on PLD. I don't super stack HP either. And feel free to use whatever feet you want. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, and you don't need to explain or defend your gear choices to me.

I'm just personally not that impressed by Rev feet as a tanking piece.
You're missing something. Enmity+ reduces CE loss when taking damage.

References:
Effect added: Feb 18 2014 version update.
My post summarizing the original JP blog post that tested and quantified the effect.

You can generally expect block rate to drop by about 1.5% for each mob level increased. So going from 139 to 150 would drop base block rate by 16.5%.

So since Ochain had 53.44% block rate on a 139 mob(no extra skil+/block+) without reprisal. it would have a block rate of 36.94% on 150 mobs. before the new reprisal update that would be 55.41% block rate with reprisal up. But we need to account for the update and extra skill so.

440*0.15=66 bonus skill. 66 *0.215=14.19% so 36.94+14.19=51.13% then apply our reprisal mod. 51.13*1.5=76.695% block rate.

This can, of course be boosted further with additional skill/block+ gear.

so because of its 150 def does that mean plds should be casting protect with srivatsa now?

well at least they gave it a use.. well other than a lockstyle >.>

If you got it you may as well.

Those that don't might have to actually get an inventory-1 shield just to cast protect in, it's a big jump from A/O to basically any 119 shield

Oh, I didn't know about that change so that's good to know. Makes sense then for the enmity in idle tank set.

I thought I'd go ahead and do the priwen version of this as well.

Priwen
Block rate vs 139 mob. 10.16%.
Block rate loss from 11 mob levels to reach 150 mob, 16.5%.
Additional skill from reprisal: 552*.15=82.8. Floor to 82. 82*.215=17.63 block rate gain.
10.16-16.5 = -6.34 +17.63 = 11.29 (and yes, the calculated block rate can go negative, and you have to "catch up" to the 5% floor before you'll see any visible changes.)
Apply reprisal mod, priwen aug'd. 11.29*3=33.87% block rate.

So vs 150 mobs with no extra skill, no block+ and reprisal up that's:
Priwen: 33.87%
Ochain: 76.695%

I'm looking at the Srivatsa Vs. Ochain stuff not solely in terms of block rates. That's why, personally, I lean more towards Srivatsa on really high level stuff over Ochain (when not needing to use Aegis) because of Srivatsa's other mods. I think, at least for me, this update reinforces my own reasons for choosing Sriv over Ochain for PDT stuff at and above 145.

Edits: reasoning (more defense, more Hp and Mp, enmity, the annul factor, acc/attack, DT etc). Ochain of course, blocks better.

That all seems like stubborn reasons to use a shield. It’s an off tank shield for a job that should never be off tank.

With ochain the extra hp would be less useful because you are blocking more and will have a much more steady HP, the enmity + would be negated by blocking a lot more and negating more damage, the annul factor is nice but again more steady hp loss vs spikes is safer, more def would not be a factor since again you will be blocking a lot more, as far as acc/attack yea it’s got that but at that high lvl content are you actually hitting on pld and is it significant enough to matter?

Also, Ochain has more vit.

Martel I hate to ask because I suck at the math, but what is our block rate with Srivatsa? The only reason I ask is because Hybrid wise I tank almost all wave 3 in a hybrid set so that I can spam atonement. But if my block rate floors swapping shields then its obviously not worth losing Ochain. That shield just looks so good for hybrid setups when I actually like to use atonement to tank.


I hit pretty well on 150 content on PLD in my hybrid set, just distract on the mob and I use a Stewpot instead of Ramen, no def but still 90 hp, and 90 acc. Also don't sleep on Enlight 2, that adds 130+ acc when initially cast.

1106 acc no buffs + 90 food + 130 enlight2 = 1326 acc
edit: also forgot to mention that a huge source of TP gain also has to do with Shield Mastery, I'm significantly slower if the RUN actually pulls hate off me (which doesn't usually happen til they catch up to me at hate cap)

Then I suppose the real question is, how much total damage do you do with srivastra vs ochain on this content, in my experience the highest I’ve seen pld do was around 10% of party damage and if adding srivastra only adds 1-2% more is it worth the defensive losses?

Curious for example how this change impacts shield block and skill in setting up gear sets. For example Excalibur. I have always been a huge fan simply because well it’s Excalibur...

Previously with Shield block floored, who cares about +shield block, but now?

Using Excalibur as an example but it applies across the board to shield block gear.

Previously (based on the sets Martel posted in the past 10-20 pages) I have been largely ignoring Shield skill and block.

This just makes gearing slightly more difficult because before we had to balance Pdt/MDT, HP, enmity and the balance those in SIRD/Resist/etc.

Is Shield Block now back in the mix?

Its never been about damage, even SE has already told us they don't ever plan on letting PLD become a Hybrid DD. It has always been about out parsing my DD's when it comes to holding hate. Getting to the top of the hate list and remaining there through the use of Atonement and Burtgang. That is my true reason for using Hybrid, to let my DD's focus on DDing knowing I'll keep the mob facing the right target.

Idk when shield block wasn’t in the mix, the only shield you would use that you likely won’t get blocks is aegis.

I'm curious on this as well, Sacro Bulwark has so many stats that just make sense for a PLD to wear, Cure potency, SIRD, Block+, DT

If Sacro has a decent block rate when paired with R15 Excalibur, it may do well in the long run.

Right, so you need to weigh defensive loss from ochain to offensive gain from srivastra, if the gains are minimal vs the defensive loss it’s not helping you hold hate better, if the mob is on you and you have a high block rate you will likely gain tp much quicker than low block rate and more acc and do more overall dmg than with the more attack.

Back to my original question then, whats the block rate of Srivastra so I can determine if say going from 70% block rate with reprisal/ochain, to 50% Reprisal/Sri, would probably be worth it. But dropping from 70% to say 35% would not.