~First And Final Line Of Defense V2.0~

No idea. It may have always worked this way, or it may have changed. All I can say is that this is how it is now. And it sucks.

Augments on Relic pieces (on all jobs) always worked that way. Only the augments that adds duration works on activations.

This is not true. This is an exaggeration. You're painting with a very broad brush and I don't think you mean to.

Some jobs have relic JSE that must be worn on activation and some that must be worn while the effect is active. (Potency and duration is not a divider here because BST Call Beast on Relic Hands, DRK Dark Seal and SCH Submimation are all examples that disprove your assertion).

There is no simple dividing line and it varies per JA on a case by case basis.

For the purposes of this thread, I believe Rampart FC is expected be worn while in effect and not on activation ...but I prefer that it be the latter. Full-timing PLD relic head for FC+3 per merit sounds really silly. Someone open a bug or ask SE?

Dark Seal does not disprove his assertion, and I don't think Sublimation does either. Call Beast doesn't have a duration at all, so that doesn't either.

How about futhark legs and inspiration? They can be worn on activation, increases FC potency(not duration) and the legs can then be removed while retaining the FC+.

After seeing how the Iron Will augment worked I actually went and retested Futhark legs, concerned that they worked in the same, stupid way. But no. Futhark legs augment are fine.

Yeah I stand corrected by only by this. Felgarr's examples were invalid as pointed by Geriond.

Now this one Martel is I would say 2nd group that is an exception. The group of augments that gives the same effect that ability they augment (like in this example augments only adds more FC to Inspiration that also gives you FC). Maybe Im wrong again tho XD

At this point, how hard does your Savage Blade + SC have to hit to break even with hate from atonement, assuming not using burtgang

Hmmm. Lemme work some numbers. Thing is though, it's going to depend a great deal on what level the mob is as mob level is a major modifier for dmg enmity.

Got a range in mind? That said, I only have dmg enmity test samples to base comparisons off of for lvl 119(trash) and lvl 139 mobs atm.

If I remember those values correctly, you should be basically looking at only 3k TP Savage Blades being roughly comparable to the 300/900 from 1k TP Atonements.... And maybe not even that (I may be remembering numbers from Divine Emblem, and possibly only from 119v119).

It's a good mule job, less work because you just pop on Aegis and 5/5 souveran +1.

Not yet, DirectX. We need to petition SE to update it to be the best.

So. It's not actually that hard to match Atonement's base enmity of 300 CE even on 139 mobs.

I'm only really examining the CE here, because Atonement's VE is its CE*3, and the VE from dmg is CE*3. So for the purposes of comparison, if you are matching or beating the CE, you're doing the same with the VE.

On a 139 mob, a 11,500 savage blade would match and very slightly exceed atonement's (again) base CE of 300 at 1k TP. The issue here of course is that twice referenced base CE.

On savage Blade you're going to need to gear for DMG, but on Atonement you can focus completely on increasing the enmity output.

Lots of numbers follow. Not futzing with the formatting on this.
Currently excluding Burtgang's enmity+ and augment.
So, I'm getting a 942 CE Atonement after accounting for TP bonus, TP overflow, and enmity+ gear. Assuming a maxed enmity set excluding burtgang.

This would require a 36,000 savage blade to match. But that's before considering that Savage blade is still going to benefit from Crusade. With Crusade up a 27,700 Savage would suffice. I haven't specifically examined savage sets for any additional enmity+/-. This is about as deep as I'm willing to dig into this atm.

The dmg to enmity ratio on 139 mobs may be complete crap, but well. 300 CE is also crap. And thus not impossible to catch up with, it seems.

I suspect that a 27,700 savage is entirely attainable on 139 mobs, assuming good buffs and gear, although I suspect it may take WS'ing at a higher TP than 1k. Doing the same with Atonement would increase its enmity mod, moving the bar for savage blade upward. Or alternatively, WS'ing at 1k vs savage at a higher TP would create a WS frequency advantage for atonement.

Also, I've left burtgang out of this, due to the conditions of the original question, and there still the augment mechanics to address. The augment would be either a decent boost to Atonement enmity, or a huge one depending on how it works. So things might shift a bit depending on how that goes, however...

This current analysis leaves me feeling that SE halfassed the Atonement change. This was supposed to help PLD's with enmity gain. Yet it's not even always the best WS for enmity gain. It does have the advantage of not needing any buffs, so it's a low support option. But on the Savage side you have actually contributing to overall dps.

I guess what I can say for it is that I feel it does make WS'ing worthwhile even when you aren't buffed and are playing defensively. And even assuming the worst case for the Burtgang augment(counting as gear enmity+ and capping at the +200 gear cap) it would still be an improvement and would make hitting the enmity+ cap trivial even in a high HP capped DT Atonement set. Making WS'ing safe and viable for enmity even when turtling.

I recently obtained Burtgang and have been slogging through the trials to upgrade. After getting the Lv80 upgrade I've been noticing some anomalies in terms of damage. I am occasionally going over damage cap. Here and there I'm hitting 1000+, usually around 1060-1090, which makes sense since with all 119 gear and a lv80 Sword my item level is 109, but the TP return on these instances seems to point to a DA proc. It's incredibly intermittent. Out of the 140 kills thus far out of the 400 needed for Lv85, I've only seen it a dozen or so times. And yes a vast majority of the other kills are capping at the expected 990. Is this some sort of Abyssea based anomaly or is possible that with the update, one of the hits is now able to Multi-strike? A trivial question, sure, but if multi-strike can proc, does it affect enmity generation and if it does, would a multi-strike build be beneficial? The trials are done on PLD/WAR with the VV,RR,and Apoc atmas, so if no multi-strike is present in my gear(which I am sure there isnt, but could be wrong) from /WAR and atmas I have a 15% chance of DA and likewise for TA. It should be noted that in the previous 3 trials with a Lv75 weapon, same atma, same job combo, same WS gear, this never happened. With the 10-12 times I've seen this, it sort of lines up with the expected 15% DA, TP return is 95 on 990 and lower but the 1k+ return is 105. (85 single swing, 10 for the second hit and 10 for DA,no?)

Assuming a 15% TA and 15% DA rate, a TA should have occurred at some point. Since one did not, and due to the unique nature of Atonement, multi hit does not seem to apply to it. I also can't find any information regarding extra swings occurring on atonement, and the damage formula seems to only work for the two expected hits. It's probably more likely that a regain tick or tp from shield mastery is what you are seeing.

I don't remember seeing any damage big variance during atonement outside of not being hate capped. Remember, being hate capped for say ilvl 99 Atonement doesn't mean you're hate capped for ilvl 109 Atonement. Need more hate to cap damage as your ilvl increases.

This would explain the TP but not the damage, the fact it always coincides with the 990 break seems too coincidental. Yes, rightly so, but Burtgang isnt available in an item level other than 119 and according to the formula on the BG page, main hand item level, not total item level, is listed as a factor:

((CE ÷ 6) - 1) + ((VE ÷ 6) - 1) ≤ (mainhand item)Level × 10.
Also if hate wasnt capped why would I be getting 990 even on 90% of the WS. There were a few time that AM3 was up when this occurred so its possible that multi-strike component is the caus as again the BG page for Multi-strike (Multi-attack) lists Mythic Aftermath as a separate step in the checks and orders. I apologize for not posting about AM3 but honestly it's sort of implied with the nature of the situation these occurrences happen. Since TA from AM3 doesn't happen until Lv95, this could be an explanation of why only DA has occurred. It also implies that only Aftermath can cause a multi-strike attack round with Atonement. Also bear in mind that there have been 800+ previous instances of me using Atonement on various monsters with 600+ being used to deal the killing blow,and until the weapon level changed, never experienced any damage over the expected 990.

I think going forward with this, I'll change atmas or proceed outside of Abyssea to get a clearer test.

So, I threw a swart at my Burtgang to R1 it and did some testing on the augment. Mind you, I got some non augment Atonement samples first for comparison. R1 Burt has "Atonement" enmity+10 on it for reference.

I got a 1k and 3k TP before adding the augment, then did them again after. And I'm glad I did, cause I would have misunderstood how this works without the augmented 3k sample.

So. It's not additive with enmity gear. So no easy capped enmity+ in your atonement set. Still want all the enmity+ you can get there. And it's also not multiplicative with gear enmity either. The numbers didn't fit, as you can see in the below image. The second section if the values when calculating the enmity augment as an extra multiplier. The 1k TP sample seemed fine, but the 3k was quite off.

I tried applying the aug enmity to the ftp mod as a multiplier, but that didn't work either.

Turns out that the enmity augment is added to the fTP mod. Not directly, mind you, adding +100 to a 1 mod at 1kTP would be nuts. It's added sorta like it was being treated like enmity gear. +10 enmity adds +0.1 to the ftp enmity mod. So at 1k TP with a +10 augment the ftp mod is 1.1. A 3k it's 2.1.


So at r15 with Atonement enmity+100, the enmity mod would be doubled at 1k TP. So a 2, before any TP bonus etc. And as can be seen by the 3k TP sample, this does still apply at 3k TP.

This is... quite significant. I may actually R15 Burtgang now. While the multiplicative option would have been a bit stronger, this is a hell of a lot more potent than it being additive with gear enmity. A brief comparison using the same stats as my previous Atonement post.

Pre augment: 942 CE
Multi: 1884 CE
ftp add: 1710
enmity gear add: 1104
*these number have not be adjusted to make use of burtgang's normal enmity+. The original comparison excluded it. With it, the ftp add mode would be 1863 CE. Not redoing the rest of them.

My earlier evaluation of Atonement needs to be re-examined. Also, it takes a hell of a lot more DMG from savage blade to keep up with Atonement on high level mobs now. But I'll leave it at this for now, and cover the implications of this in another post later.

Thanks for your testing.

What's the absolute state of paladin today after the adjustments? From where I'm standing, as someone who generally heals, it seems... workable? I'm debating doing Burtgang. I don't enjoy rune fencer.

I was speaking generically to "all jse" and the "only the augment that adds duration works on activation" comments that was made and was trying to correct it. It is much too specific an assertion to say that type of augment (duration, potency, etc) goes hand-in-hand with the method by which the augment takes effect. I haven't played every job but I was under the impression that Relic AF augments regardless of whether the augment is duration-based or potency-based, worked in one of three following ways:

• Worn on activation
  

• Worn while in effect (ability/trait/parameter/midcast spell/etc)
  

• Both.

I think I was wrong about sublimation, but Dark Seal certainly needs to be activated (without or without AF head, not sure if it matters, but I activate the JA while wearing it anyway) and most certainly needs to be worn in midcast (with Dark Seal active) while wearing Relic had, in order for the augmented Dark Magic duration bonus to take effect. This would put Dark Seal in #2 above, right?

Is it safe to say that PLD relic head's Rampart augment currently works as #2 as well? It makes sense for ability like Dark Seal to behave this way, as it relies on the subsequent cast of a Dark Magic spell....but Rampart, much less so. I'd be curious if there other relic augments that could be swapped around between #1, #2, #3 above to our benefit.

Pld can pretty much tank anything a rune can. The reductions on timers helped it alot. Although it could still use a foil equivilent. Think of pld as more of a supportive tank whereas run is a more offensive one. Both are bringing different stuff to the table. Between burt and morraltach pld can take alot of abuse and also majesty curebomb for a nice hunk of hp and new cooldowns allow hate management to feel a little bit easier on things like dynamis. Where a rune fencer can easily shorten a fight for the group by tossing out 30-40k resolutions while still tanking. Rune fencer also gets one for all which is great for things like tumalt curator however rampart might be able to work in its place now. Havent tried yet.

Thd point was that he was claiming that all relic augments worked like #2 in your list, so listing Dark Seal (which works like #2) does not work as a counterexample regardless of whether his claim was actually true or not.

Until the RUN adjustments come and SE nerfs it into the ground.

Come on Matsui-san, do it for the balance!

The problem with PLD is not surviving, it's keeping enmity retention over a long drawn out fight. It has no quick way of rapid enmity when JAs are down since it doesn't have foil or stun. /Blu helps, sure, but the VE/CE values from Blu spells aren't that high, with the exception of Jettatura.

RUN doesn't need to dps to hold hate, it never has. with Epeo, Liement hitting 6 people is over 12k VE with an anywhere decent Enmity set. And Valiance is the same. PLD does not have that, Rampart maybe close, but not to the same level.

I'm all for RUN, but I've said for a long time it needs a nerf.
PLD obviously works for all content, nothing is that hard anymore. However for longer fights aka Dynamis, master trials, RUN just does better due to long term enmity, more tools to spam.

I would assume because SE has not nerf'd RUN yet they are hoping to somehow find a good fix for PLD. With that said just giving Foil to PLD would really help.

Foil and some natural fencer V.

They could make it more a Holy Knight class. Some JA's similar to Lunge that deal holy damage and maybe some cool abilities that enhance holy damage. RUN could be the melee DD that blocks magic, and PLD could be the magic hybrid DD that blocks physicals!