~First And Final Line Of Defense V2.0~

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~First and Final Line of Defense v2.0~
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By Asura.Jugsofholyness 2019-02-07 15:30:42
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Quetzalcoatl.Chanceikin said: »
Asura.Jugsofholyness said: »
Instead of yall arguing at each other, how about you help me.






Taint said: »

Slapped this together:

ItemSet 351749
1254 acc with enlight2





What's the best WS swap for Savage Blade?

Requiescat?

Jugs - Savage Blade is arguably the best WS for PLD. If you don't have it, get Ayame Trust out and get those WS points. In the meantime, CDC is probably second best. You will also have to do some things to get that WS though.. Savage Blade is pretty much free, CDC will cost you a buck. Vorpal Blade is probably third best WS.

Requiescat is pretty much only good for things like Caturae when they put up shield.. but most PLDs probably wont break the shield with one Requiescat. Also, if you are using Sequence and need to activate the Aftermath effect.

Best Magic WS.. is interesting.. Red Lotus Blade and Seraph Blade are kind of your options. So I would use whichever is better based on the affinity of your enemy. Really though, I wouldn't use either unless you're doing Omen procs or Abyssea reds. Requiescat is maybe in here, it's average too. I don't know if Sanguine Blade counts in this category.. but if it does, I would use that. Again, limited usage though. I remember people using Spirits Within in old school abyssea but I forget the condition it was useful for.

Basically you want to use Savage Blade, CDC, and if you have to Vorpal Blade.

Sorry, I meant "what's the best WS set for Savage Blade? What's the best WS set for Requiescat?"
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By soralin 2019-02-07 15:47:56
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I think the thing is, capping SIRD on Paladin is peanuts.

Id get your balking at it if it cost 10s of millions of gil and a tonne of effort.

But getting I think like, 6 pieces of gear that are all minor effort is a different ballpark.

But then again, I am primarily a Pld Main, its the class I got my DREAM items on, so I take it serious enough to gear out all sets, and have like 5 different Rudianos's Mantles.

So I get it if you play like 6 other jobs and cant give up inventory for a SIRD set.

Except naw I still don't, most of the good SIRD pieces for Pld are also awesome for tonnes of other classes.

If you have a R15 burtgang and an Aegis (which totals out at around, what, 300mil gil?) but couldn't drop a mil or two on a SIRD set, you need to sort yourself out.
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 Pandemonium.Zeto
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By Pandemonium.Zeto 2019-02-07 17:45:52
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It's hard to say what the 'best' WS set for pld stuff is since you're going to be making compromises between not decimating your HP every time you WS and maximizing your damage. Relic+3 is an okay option in most slots since it has decent offensive stats paired with decent HP but it won't be do as much damage as well augmented valorous/odyssean gear. But those items all have like 20 hp on them.
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By Taint 2019-02-07 18:32:59
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Pandemonium.Zeto said: »
It's hard to say what the 'best' WS set for pld stuff is since you're going to be making compromises between not decimating your HP every time you WS and maximizing your damage. Relic+3 is an okay option in most slots since it has decent offensive stats paired with decent HP but it won't be do as much damage as well augmented valorous/odyssean gear. But those items all have like 20 hp on them.

Relic+3 has good acc and att as well. WSdmg does ***when your pdif is floored.

100% agree with your post
 Quetzalcoatl.Commencal
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By Quetzalcoatl.Commencal 2019-02-07 22:32:11
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Cleaving Apex JP/hour was ridiculous and faster than any Apex party I had ever been in. GEO/SCH mules for buffs in Dho Gates. Pardon me if you have participated in an Apex AOE party, that would be similar JP/hour as cleaving them.

I completely forgot about it but /BLU was mentioned as well. Rather than wait for the opportune time to cast, it lets spells cycle faster, toggling when it's certain they won't be interrupted. Restricting yourself to timing spells between the mobs melee attacks, when it's casting, using a long readying ability, or other opportune moments isn't how /BLU is played efficiently. SIRD is necessary to maintain your spell cycle as /BLU.

We likely hold differing values of necessity. I could say a fast cast set is redundant and not necessary with a SIRD set because the spell won't be interrupted. That's not the point at all, I find all my gear sets, SIRD included, are not only necessary, but essential to playing the job as efficiently as possible.

Am I wrong about playing /BLU and a SIRD set isn't necessary for the sub job?

I'm not mocking you, I pointed out a hypocritical statement. You should have said at one point in time you considered it, but after clearing all that content it wasn't required.

This is not a new practice people began talking about a few months ago. It's been canon for years now.
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By soralin 2019-02-10 23:52:30
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Thoughts:

Moralltach's Path C augment nets you +380 life and a 4 tic refresh, and its +25% cure potency means we can easily hit cure cap... without having to lose almost any HP.

Burtgang effectively nets you a 36% Physical Damage reduction.

However... Are there any end game bosses where we worry about a physical attack tank buster one shotting us? I feel like almost always its Magic dmg that threatens one shotting us, and anything else we can easily soak up.

If there are any physical damage tank busters I am missing, do say so but...

I feel like Moralltach's huge amount of HP it gives you (Is 380 HP the single highest source of HP+ in one slot in the whole game?) makes it actually in the long run outperform Burtgang.

Speaking from the utilitarian perspective of raw super tanking bosses, weapon sheathed, Maximizing HP retention when spellcasting, pure "Don't die and carry on" mode...

I feel like most of the time, Moralltach's effectively goes farther.
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By soralin 2019-02-11 00:27:52
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To add on, consider the following two sets:

Set 1: Traditional Turtle
ItemSet 365041

And the following Cure set (Note we probably dont do a Fast Cast swap for super tanking to absolutely preserve every shred of HP we can, since we basically still have almost capped DT and Life while casting anyways)

Set 2: Curing + 104% SIRD
ItemSet 365040

Most items don't change, and for good reason, our 25% Cure Potency from the sword means we only need to swap pieces to get another 25% potency, or as close to that as we can, and to cap SIRD.

So, lets start with places we lose HP.

Odnowa Earring => Knightly Earring : -100 HP
Souveran Diechlings +1(C) => Carmine cuisses +1(A): -33 HP
And thats actually it, 133HP loss so far. To make that back we simply swap...

Souveran Cuirass: Path D(Refresh) => Path C(Cure Pot Received): +105 HP
Souveran Handschuhs +1(D) => Regal Gauntlets: +6 HP

The rest if the gear should be 1:1 HP swaps, if its a swap at all. And we should still be at capped MDT, and be at 47% PDT.

So, this in total nets us:

Capped MDT
3% shy of cap PDT
104% SIRD
46% Cure Potency
30% Potency Recieved

And a net HP loss of... Wait for it... 22 life.

I think that puts the weights HEAVILY in favor of Moralltach, no?
 Shiva.Humpo
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By Shiva.Humpo 2019-02-11 08:00:12
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My only thought to the SIRD/Cure set is that most people won't have regal gloves, so using founders hose for 30% SIRD over Carmine might be a "better" option.

I am curious what the estimated HP on that set is? Also how much 3% HP is from moogle belt vs using a flume since moogle belt can be 'difficult' to obtain.
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2019-02-11 08:25:56
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Shiva.Humpo said: »

My only thought to the SIRD/Cure set is that most people won't have regal gloves, so using founders hose for 30% SIRD over Carmine might be a "better" option.

I am curious what the estimated HP on that set is? Also how much 3% HP is from moogle belt vs using a flume since moogle belt can be 'difficult' to obtain.

Couldn't you swap impatiens to Staunch Tathlum midcast for the extra PDT (+1 would cap)

Nevermind, glossed over the fact that right above you said you don't swap fast cast when supertanking
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By soralin 2019-02-11 10:20:37
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We're using Impatians for the 10% SIRD as well to cap SIRD out.
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By soralin 2019-02-11 10:22:09
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Shiva.Humpo said: »

My only thought to the SIRD/Cure set is that most people won't have regal gloves, so using founders hose for 30% SIRD over Carmine might be a "better" option.

I am curious what the estimated HP on that set is? Also how much 3% HP is from moogle belt vs using a flume since moogle belt can be 'difficult' to obtain.

Better choice is to swap another Odnowa earring I believe for Magnetic Earring, thats much less HP loss.
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By Asura.Karumac 2019-02-21 13:44:23
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soralin said: »
We're using Impatians for the 10% SIRD as well to cap SIRD out.
But... The Staunch +1 already had 11 SIRD?
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By soralin 2019-02-21 14:01:47
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You're right, I always grok Staunch as just meva I and DT, I forget it has SIRD too. Its the correct call.
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By Valefor.Ophannus 2019-02-22 15:14:30
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I haven't played since 2013 and the last content back then that was relevant was Legion and Delve and nobody really used PLD---that said, how is PLD in today's content? Back then it was just a bunch of dd jobs with a brd/geo and a SCH for stun, nobody brought PLD for anything.
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By soralin 2019-02-24 18:54:05
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Paladin and Rune Fencer are the two most popular tanks.
 Asura.Gotenn
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By Asura.Gotenn 2019-03-01 18:45:46
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Ok specifically for W2-3 Dyna, total Niche set, kinda just messing around with ideas:
ItemSet 365375

This only works with PDT 10 on the back to still get the 50 pdt, still hits the 50mdt. But has the added benefit of extra DT from all the Killer effects, plus you can eat Garlic cracker +1 for +12 killer (which is 6 more DT)

From what I understand Killer effects are separate from DT cap, and can therefor give you more than 87.5% DT.

Niche, but ideas?


***edit, I guess this could also work on apex skellys if you were trying to AE cp farm***
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-03-01 19:49:14
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Well, my first thought is, do any killer effects actually work on beastmen, since that's what wave 2 is made of. And then for wave 3, do volte actually count as undead? I seem to recall past cases of some namis mobs not actually counting as their apparent species.

Can you use Sepulcher on them? I can't recall if I ever tried on the few runs I went PLD. Really, this is something I should know, having done the event on PLD before, but I just can't recall if there were any intimidations or if I used sepulcher. Maybe I could check some logs...

If volte do count as undead, it seems like a sound idea. But a few things to note.

Firstly, according to Byrths testing on killer effects, the dmg reduction is not additive with PDT. it's a separate multiplier.

Some numbers for physical dmg.
Killer effect values.
Trait 10%
Circle 17%
Food 12%
gear 2% (killer bow)

10+17+12+2=41
41/2=20.5
This effect only works in whole numbers, also per Byrths testing. so floor 20.5 to 20.

PDT 68%
Killer dmg- 20%

so that's 0.32*.8=.256

So you'd be taking 25.6% of the original dmg. Or -74.4%, assuming I've mathed right. Whereas if it was additive it would have been -88%.

Still, 74.4% PDT is nice. it's very nearly right there with Epeolatry. And then you factor shield blocks...

For MDT you'd be looking at 0.5*0.8=0.4. Or 60% MDT without Aegis. with Aegis, 0.125*0.8=0.1. or a 90% reduction. assuming this can bypass the 87.5 cap. Which it may, considering it's a separate term, kinda like valliance in that sense.

It doesn't seem like you lose too much to make this work. Some HP/def/refresh from changing body, some status resist from changing ammo. Then food.

It's a bit involved to measure the impact of losing def+ food... but going from 68% PDT to 74.4% is pretty significant. I'd say this seems worth trying for wave 3 assuming they count as undead.

One final caveat... I'm not sure if the potency of these killer effect dmg reductions are nerfed on NMs. Iirc the dmg dealt bonus might be, so the gains here could possibly be up to half as effective as predicted....
 Shiva.Ariaum
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By Shiva.Ariaum 2019-03-01 23:11:21
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They do not count as undead.
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By soralin 2019-03-11 10:39:00
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So.

Naegling.

Our best DPS sword now bar none, right?

I punched it into DPS spreadsheet compared to a R15 Sequence with optimized Savage Blade WS Gear, and the damage was basically the same.

We lose 500 TP Bonus but gain 15% Savage Blade Dmg, which probably works out to net gain I believe, depending on if the 15% Savage Blade dmg is a 'more' or 'increased' mod with respect to "Ws Dmg%+" stats.

IE if I have +100% WS dmg and NAegling, do I end up doing +115% Savage Blade dmg, or +130%?

I /believe/ its +130%, it should work the way the 'more' modifiers on Relic, Mythic, and Empy's function. Probably?

I've assumed it does on my DPS spreadsheet.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-03-11 12:31:22
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That seems a really off to me. TP bonus is massive on Savage blade.

The first hit ftp for savage blade at 1k TP is 4.0, and at 2k it's 10.25. Assuming a linear increase 1500 TP should be 7.125. That's nearly an 80% increase in first hit base dmg. I don't see how 15% wsd, even if it's all hits wsd in a second term like relic bonus, could possibly match that.

I have no idea how you're getting these as near equal in your spreadsheet. After throwing them in my sheet, and setting up the savage blade wsd as relic ws bonus(separate term affecting all hits) I still have sequence utterly crushing this sword. And that's an unaugmented Sequence, since I never made those updates to my PLD sheet.

Now, I've neglected PLD dd for awhile, so my sets are likely outdated, but I don't see those changes overturning this difference.

This seems like a good sword for jobs that can't use sequence or have native savage blade access. But I don't think it's offering much for PLD.
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By soralin 2019-03-11 15:56:09
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You using tp bonus earring and /war, and setting ws at 1400~1500 to?

Even with sequence your maximum savage blade dps should be wsing at around 1400 tp I believe.

With the TP bonus from fencer and TP bonus earring, sequences 500 tp bonus is pretty comparable to 15% savage blade dmg.

Ill upload my dps soreadsheet when I get home, you can double check.
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By soralin 2019-03-11 16:09:53
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Right okay so with fencer /war and earring thats 450 tp bonus, and Im pretty sure dps peaked at 1450 tp or so.

Which means you are at 1900 tp, or, an fTP of 9.625.

Sequence boosts you to 2400, and dos still seemed to peak around 1450 tp base. So sequences fTp is 11.65.

Going from 9.625 > 11.65 fTP is about 21% more dmg. Respectable.

Going from 1.15(new sword) bonus to 1.21(sequence) is about a 5% more dmg boost.

But the new sword also has a lot more acc and att. So it all looks like it maths out to me.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-03-11 16:42:40
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TP bonus moonshade and /war yes. WS at 1400~1500 TP, no.

If I set 1500 TP, the WS dmg values are much closer to each other. However I'm also getting that change as an overall DPS drop for Sequence wielders. Naeg gains about 5% DPS going from 1k to 1.5k minimum ws TP, whereas Sequence loses about 10% dps doing so.

This at least makes sense to me. Savage Blade's fTP scaling is the steepest from 1k to 2k, then drops off on the way to 3k. So the benefits of waiting till 1500 TP drop off when you have the extra 500 TP bonus from Sequence.

When WS'ing at 1500 TP the dps values are close enough that I can see how you go the results you did. Still, at no point during any of this to I have Naegling ahead of sequence. And when WS'ing at 1k TP with sequence and at 1500 with Naeg, I still have Sequence about 14% dps ahead. And again, non augmented sequence in this comparison. Should probably update that.

Some set/situational optimization may push this one way or the other, a bit, but I'd still say that Sequence is superior to Naegling. But for jobs that can't wear Sequence, then this should be one hell of a savage spam sword.
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By soralin 2019-03-11 16:59:48
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Ill need to re-crunch it when I get home, as I just dont have the sheet on hand.

But I agree logic dictates that Sequence's fTP breakpoint for max dps should be roughly 500 less than any other sword.
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By soralin 2019-03-11 23:26:51
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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/108sId92yPaJVXxyBYyl5ZFYlnz-_bRcvR8XdTUOf9Ww/edit?usp=sharing

Looks like you are right, I missed Sequence peaks DPS at 1000 tp WSing, which makes perfect sense.

This ends up putting me at (Targeting i136 Apex Bats):

Naegling DPS, spamming Savage blade at 1400 tp: 1723.666 dps

Sequence R15 DPS, Spamming Savage Blade at 1000 tp: 1987.206

Which is roughly a 15% DPS increase.

So Sequence is still definitely the champ.
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By Taint 2019-03-12 07:58:08
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Using your sheet and plugging in R15 Excal shows 1887 dps. Making it a very competitive option.
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By Asura.Kyosuki 2019-03-12 09:58:56
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Hey guys I have a few quick questions and I'd greatly appreciate it if someone could help me out. I haven't touched my PLD since 2017 but I'd like to take it to this months ambuscade for D and VD but I'm not sure what kind of gear I can get by with.

I have an Ochain and Aegis, NQ souveran, defending ring, all sulevia +1 and full enmity sets and the such. I'm looking to upgrade the souveran to +1 but I'd really prefer to save gil by only getting a few pieces. Which pieces would be the best to +1? And what path for the augments?

Would it be best to mix and match the souveran and Sulevias? Is an ambu cape worth making? If anyone has up to date gear sets or a Lua I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!
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By Asura.Byrne 2019-03-12 10:15:26
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Asura.Kyosuki said: »
Hey guys I have a few quick questions and I'd greatly appreciate it if someone could help me out. I haven't touched my PLD since 2017 but I'd like to take it to this months ambuscade for D and VD but I'm not sure what kind of gear I can get by with.

I have an Ochain and Aegis, NQ souveran, defending ring, all sulevia +1 and full enmity sets and the such. I'm looking to upgrade the souveran to +1 but I'd really prefer to save gil by only getting a few pieces. Which pieces would be the best to +1? And what path for the augments?

Would it be best to mix and match the souveran and Sulevias? Is an ambu cape worth making? If anyone has up to date gear sets or a Lua I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!

Most of it is good because it has high HP. The hands and feet are also fantastic Phalanx pieces... Now Sulveia is easy DT in gear, sure, but it lacks the HP of some other pieces, and PLD doesn't usually have much trouble capping DT between Capes, Shell, and accessories, unless you're trying to do Hybrid DT/DPS stuff, in which case things can get a little more complicated.

I know it's not what you want to hear, but I'd say you want all of it, probably starting with hands and feet, and body, but each piece is useful for something. Though I'd certainly put the legs a little lower on the priority list. The head is fine (and possibly even preferable) on path D, and technically the hands and feet too, but most people Path C on just about everything more HP and for enmity (body especially), but You can usually use Loess Barbuta +1 for enmity on head.

Some use Loess Barbuta for their HP set as well, but I'd advise against it, as it not only has less HP, but it has no magic evasion at all, and pretty poor stat vomit overall, despite the DT on it looking appealing at first.
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By soralin 2019-03-12 10:19:59
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Unfortunately 5/5 Souv+1 is basically mandatory for your Turtle set. Its HP and DT combined are just that massive. Nothing else really compares.
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By Nariont 2019-03-12 11:40:20
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not a pld but cant af +2/3 fill in for body? or does the set DT outweigh the HP on it?

EDIT: Ah i missed the enmity already on the piece, nevermind
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