~First And Final Line Of Defense V2.0~

Not sure what you mean, both sets are used yes.

Sakpata is vastly superior to emp+2 armor in general. All emp +2 I would consider optional and situation right now (praying for better +3) but Sakpata is heavily used in many sets and situations.

Just a quick test on Duban before bed. At it's first upgrade this replaces priwen and ochain for physical damage mitigation and blocking.

On level 139 poxhounds I'm seeing 89% blockrate without reprisal.

100% blockrate with reprisal.

Not to mention the free 100+def and 118 shield skill.

Buffs used cocoon, phalanx, protect.

Gear used:

Very nice :) It will be super easy to make PLD alts now, that can supertank ***in Ambuscade or other places. R0 Sakpata + Duban and you have meva, blocks and DT. Awesomness.

For career PLDs, this shield and Foil in one update is really glorious :)

The only disadvantage I see is going afk and forgetting this shield on and losing ML.

/run has auto regen to stop that :)

Hmmm. Need a block dmg- test.

I'm inclined to suspect that, like Aegis and Srivatsa as size 5 shields(both have -75% dmg on block), Ochain and Duban will ignore the defense on the shield and simply have -60% dmg on block regardless.

BUT! This should be tested.

I'm also curious as to what else they will add at further upgrade levels.... Gonna add MDT II and kill Aegis too? lol.

MDT III

Reposting this outside of that mess of an update thread.Although I think much of this has been covered, more or less.
And a follow up on block rates... Just glancing over it.. With just Reprisal, and no additional skill+ or block+, Duban should cap block rate on lvl 150 mobs at ML0.

I also see some possibility of capping blockrate without reprisal, though I haven't gone into specifics. Just looks possible. Would take significant gear, but shouldn't require ridiculous Dark Matter block+ augs or anything.

You'd have to pry /BLU out of my cold dead hands before I sub /RUN for Foil.... Just lol. Sub BLU still wins for 90% of situations just from a practicality stand point. I sure as heck don't need Foil to tank anything in the current meta.

Though I think a strong argument can now be made to replace PLD/DRK for PLD/RUN for niche fights.

What do you "need" from /BLU to tank in the current meta? Should read what /RUN offers besides Foil (which is still nutty) and honestly I'd say /blu is relegated to a more niche use (Frightful Roar all the things)

I'm salty I'll probably never main job RUN unless Gambit/Rayke are needed but hey.

I already know what RUN offers, I have a RUN as well. Not enough to make me sub it and be stuck with banishga only....

It's much easier to tag with AOE /blu spells (ie dynamis, ody segment farms, etc) than to use banishga plus you have multiple aoe spells you can cycle through then wait for cool downs. 50% defense boost with cocoon is amazing when 20+ mobs are beating on you.

Foil isn't going to offer me more utility than BLU does so why would I sub it? PLD/DRK situation, I see some value for sure.

vastly prefer the range of banishga as a initial tag, same as poisonga on run/drk, cocoons nice but phys dmg is already at or near floored due to blocking which unlike runs parry can be done while not engaged, so long as targets stay in place the aoe spells arent bad but its nice with foil to just pop it and have everything back on you.

Then we got valiance, vallation, pflug(meh, still a hate tool if nothing else) magic def bonus 3, inquarta II, barspells, regen II(meh, but its there), aquaveil, stoneskin, additonal meva from runes, tanacity(meh)

BLU you get traits, not seeing the even trade here much less where blu provides more outside of being able to cycle aoes easier

Banishga is a rather... dangerous tag spell. It wakes sleeping mobs up, and pulls virtually no hate. Even if mobs aren't asleep, if someone acts on you after Banishga, but before you can use another spell or JA, then it can mean instant death for the actor.

It does have the notable advantages of longer cast range, and a wider AoE. But I've had Banishga tag kill more than a few whms. Even when I'm dualboxing the whm, and I KNOW I shouldn't cast in that window. The reflexive "have WHM cure" still gets me sometimes.

Anyway, dear SE. Native Flashga, please.

Potentially, same can be said for poisonga, even at floored its land rate isnt 0% and that means it can't be slept at all and needs to be bound or broke. But many tags (in my experience) are just that, tags and the sleep is applied after, or can be quickly reapplied because recasts are almost null for those spells these days outside of things like JA boosted variants.

But s'fair and i agree a flashga or just a non-damaging/DoT enfeeb variant of any kind would have been preferred.

You're only going to be blocking what's in front of you (I forget the radius 120 degrees or something). Most of the "benefits" you rattled off are nonsense? Aquaveil? Capped SIRD? Regen II? Do you not use your Majesty Cures? Inquartata? Why would you even engage? I laughed so hard at Stoneskin...

I get you're trying to justify this sub but hard pass. /RUN is decent. BLU is superior imo.... None of what you said is a convincing. Do what works for you. You can make /WAR work if you really want too lol.

Done arguing with RUN fanboys... If you actually played Paladin well you'd know /run is niche and not practical or at best more painful than blu in most content.

If you think you can't hold hate without Foil or somehow Foil is going to make you a better Paladin tank, then Foil isn't going to fix your garbage tanking problems.

Same can be said for Poisonga from RUN/DRK, to an extent, obviously gets far more resists than it does landing, but still has the problem of mobs being free roaming until you do another hate action (an in some cases stopping them from sleeping). I more often see RUN/DRK than RUN/BLU in a lot of content, so I don't feel like PLD using Banishga will be a whole lot different. Without any MAB/Magic Damage in gear you'll hit for a lot of 0s. If anything having access to something like Pflug and Valliance/Vallation will give PLD more options for blowing a JA after Banishga to generate some hate before Foil. I've already AoE tanked on PLD without /blu (forgot to change subjob) and pulled with Banishga. It's not quite the same as starting off with a Geist Wall, but it works.

If you wanna laugh at SS utility, which coupled with phalanx, blocks ensures even more 0's which means even less reason to use SIRD at all, and then aquaveil, then yeah i guess i'm done. I thought a RUN would appreciate those the most.

I feel like your arguments here are very "lazy PLD".

Position the mobs in front of you so you're blocking them, that's like tanking 101. Even if a couple wander to the sides positioning as many as possible in front of you to block is something a tank should be doing most of the time.

Yes Aquaveil, I don't use SIRD Phalanx sets as I feel it defeats the purpose and Flash/Stun generally don't use SIRD as they cast fast enough. Will get the odd interrupt here and there from it, aquaveil will make that a non issue going forward. Less damage taken because I used Aquaveil? Yes Please.

Engage cause Atonement is one of PLDs best hate tools, with a burt and good AM3 set you can put out a decent amount of damage as well, generating TP is also good for MP generation on PLD, etc. Lots of reasons to engage, and inquartata just adds more reason to engage as it's more damage mitigation. Just cause you're not a good PLD doesn't make it a not good option.

When you're only taking single to double digit damage from a lot of hits that Stoneskin before a pull goes a long ways. It's more of a safety net at the start giving you more time to pull/grab hate before you may need a cure. And "Well I can just cure myself" is a *** answer cause you can cure yourself all you want if you're dying cause you're not building hate as you're curing yourself the whole time you're doing it wrong. And don't try the "I'm generating hate by curing" cause a lot of us have done the testing, curing doesn't generate that much hate.

No one is RUN fangirling here, and I doubt anyone thinks foil is the solution to AoE tanking on PLD. However, I care far less about 50% defense bonus than I do about status/elemental resists, Magic Defense and MDT bonus, etc. "Just equip an Aegis" I could, but Aegis doesn't have the block rate for these 40 mobs beating my face in.

Your argument pretty much summed up my point. /BLU is losing it's luster. Foil isn't a make or break to PLD, but it filled a gap that made /run more than just a niche.

You'd benefit your group as a tank in general if you kept an open mind to the options the people are bringing to the table. They're pretty solid.

If has nothing to do with "lazy".... /blu hasn't lost its luster cause of access to Foil. It's such a stupid argument...

And everyone is pretending things like WHM for barspells or SAKPATA don't exist. Wtf is nuking you all to death? Get some Magic Evasion gear?

If you want to talk about GAME CHANGING how about Runes getting access to Magic Fruit? With Sroda Belt they basically just got access to Cure IV.

Yeah, I don't like poisonga very much either. Keep in mind that I'm not arguing against /run here. Although I am very set in my /blu ways. I just don't like the idea of being fully dependent on Banishga for my AoE tag.

That's what these folks are not understanding.... It's too heavy a price to pay for a spell (Foil) you really don't need if you can play your job well.

*Edit* - I ate a snickers...

Tomasell, man.... eat a snickers and go for a walk. No one needs toxic people throwing around insults while trying to have a discussion about potential subjobs. You don't like the subjob, that's cool. Move on and stop engaging like you said you were gonna do in one of your many previous posts.

If you can't understand the utility and positive aspects of sub RUN at M50 ain't nothing gonna fix your garbage tanking and reliance on SIRD being sub BLU and failure to position mobs to mitigate the most damage possible while having additional utility of blanking Magic, Status Ailments, and Breath damage even further. Also nice to have access to barspells when using a SCH healer which is becoming a more common healing option over WHM.

Exactly what content is /BLU exactly so much better in now? Ody C farm? Also if you aren't engaging and trying to push damage as the tank you're a waste of a space. PLD can hit reasonable savage numbers now should be hitting at least 1.5M+ dmg/C run. You literally get to do it all as a PLD. Tank, heal, DD.

Half the time you don't even need to actually get hate on everything except Agon mobs and even then you can just pop Rampart (or Valiance now /RUN) after the BRD lullabies or you banishga then the rest of your JAs/Foil will generate more hate than trying to go through spamming a bunch of BLU spells at a faster rate so you can engage and spam savage faster. Or if you aren't even bothering to engage you don't even want to have hate most of the time since you can just let the BRD sleep everything and just face pull groups back to the party so they don't run off after you.

Everything else it doesn't even matter. Dyna you only need to hold hate on NMs which /RUN will be better for. Even in W3 adds should be dying in a 1-2 WS's and your one geist wall isn't going to keep hate off a DD dropping 60-99k WS. Foil will also be better for maintaining hate on Fetters. Sortie is moving towards RUN for Gambit/Rayke anyways for magic strats. Gaol has no sub. I guess AoE ML farming in CN is still a good /BLU option.

Not to mention not having to constantly be in SIRD set w/ Aquaveil makes it so everything you do is at max potency w/ higher HP retention. Your enmity generation is stronger, cures are stronger, Phalanx will always be max value if it gets wiped or starts to wear during a long pull.

Just because you can't fathom how to maximize pulling with banishga or able to coordinate with other players in your group for tagging and getting hate doesn't mean /RUN is bad. It just means you can't adapt your play style and can't play the job well. Or more likely are just too lazy to actually do the M50 grind, which would actually be the most reasonable objection here.

I just like how Geist wall is being compared to banishga/foil like they're even in the same realm of utility. Geist wall is 640 TE, Foil is 1200 TE. For reference flash is 1360 TE. Those are base numbers. Now add in the fact that banishga can pull from 20', Geist wall is unusable over 6'. So at 20' I can now basically flash pull an entire group. I pick up a second aoe ja to cement aggro (valliance) that can be alternated with Rampart. Oh yeah, and my aoe flash is a faster cast with a 15s longer recast than Geist wall. Self targeted enmity blows /blu out of the water.

Foil is basically self cast jettatura on a 45s max cool down. Jet is 2 minutes, if You're talking about /blu as the better enmity generator you're obviously playing a different game.

/BLU is still awesome for Rune who lacks an Aoe Tag, and with the addition of magic fruit at mlvl45 rune has more self sustain in the event a healer goes down. But PLD/BLU does not have the utility you think it does to make it "better" than PLD/RUN once you hit mlvl45

Cringe.... that's not how you play Paladin? Gross. I'm convinced 90% of the people commenting don't actually play the job seriously when I read stuff like this... You lose credibility when you're desperate to "cement the aggro". Cement it from what? The dps murdering them in 3-5 seconds? What are you talking about? Go play the job.

To be honest, I kinda need to ask what you're talking about. Not a lot of context is being established here, but using a Ja, etc, after a low enmity aoe tag spell was cast to put you on the enmity list for multiple mobs is.. pretty standard. I'm not sure what you're objecting to here.

That Foil is somehow needed to do this when Rampart, Sentinel, Palisade, Reprisal, don't exist and accomplish the task just as well? That yes, sometimes a single blu tag with 100+ enmity gear is sufficient without the need to follow up with a /ja though I will in full disclosure do that or a second blu spell tag on "big pulls" so hate isn't pulled off me with a big Cure.

That somehow in his world it's only Geist Wall and Sheep Song/Sporific don't exist? How, if you want to compare apples to apples on "cementing" multitarget enmity with abilities that Paladins don't have and using the Foil in his example as a base reference with 45s max cooldown, in the time it takes him to wait for his second Foil recast to come up I can Geist wall > Sheep Song > Sporific > then Geist wall again? He can add all those TE numbers if he wants.....

Yours is a fair question and I didn't give my response to his post much context because I hate arguing with disingenuous people. If Paladins here REALLY want foil so bad, make a gearswap that will drop your HP by 800 then you Cure III yourself with majesty back to full. You can do that 7 times before a second foil is ready.

Your welcome!

He randomly pops in, spews stupidity and disappears. His brief "contribution" on the warrior forum was the same.

Anyhow, glad Ochain can just fade away. Primal shield can only get better from here on out.