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Gunmen storm office of satirical magazine in Paris
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4415
By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2015-01-22 10:38:16
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »What are you? Hey, there's a question I've asked you that you've deliberately refused to answer. Quelle ironie.
Anyone else notice that the people who can barely defend their point-of-view in this thread have a terrible habit of putting on airs and pretending they're older/more mature/some other arbitrary thing that makes them "better" without ever demonstrating that assertion? At least when I start throwing around five-dollar words, it's because I use those in normal conversation (albeit to the chagrin of those stuck listening to me), not because I'm trying to feign intelligence I can't credibly claim to have. It's not that you're dumb, you just are a perfect example of what I mentioned not too long ago in another thread: Quote: Attractive people when they have the knowledge of their attractiveness will always have a little something in their attitude that is a huge turn off. It's not confidence, it's something else.
Whereas a girl that doesn't have this knowledge, whether she's attractive or not in general will have an attitude much more natural and honest.
Some people when they become rich do not keep it real. The same way, some people when they realize they're smart or pretty stop keeping it real. You are the typical example of a human being that reached some level of intelligence, started to look around him and judge people rather than focusing on his own evolution and just goes through life fapping over how intelligent he is. Most of your posts are just that, brain masturbation over which words to use, which makes you look empty, bland, superfluous. Superfluous is a word that actually defines you well, good thing I love this word.
I guess using French words makes your *** feel alive but to me you sound like a Quebecois. Maybe it makes you sound cool and makes women moist where you live, but to most people in France you just sound like someone who has an issue and doesn't know how to behave when it comes to talking. I wouldn't call you a weirdo, you're not a weirdo, you're just not in touch with reality.
From all the information you've willingly shared about yourself, you'll notice that I have never shared any about myself to show you how better I am. In fact, I'll tell you this, I want you to believe you are smarter than I, for the simple reason that you are. I want you to believe that there is nothing I've done that can come matching what you have done. I'm not a man of words, I'm a man of action. I see no point in bragging in front of people, whether it's online or in real. I rather them thinking I'm useless, it's better. However, while I don't know what's your experience with French, a couple trips to Paris, two months in Lille, whatever, you have to understand that you can't brag while sounding like a retard, it just doesn't add up.
Once again, I don't know what your French experience is but, you need to learn how to use it, and when. This is an English forum, there is no need for you to use it toward me as I won't use French toward you. If you want to argue with me in French, you can meet me on JOL. Respect of the people around you, when using a specific language, is very important. You learn this in about any situation that gathers people who don't all share a specific language.
Whether you actually try to sound intelligent this way or not doesn't really matter, you should know all of that.
How can you credibly claim to have an intelligence? I don't mean you specifically, I'm not trying to discredit you, but in general, how does someone do that?
"Here are my diploma, I'm intelligent"? "I can do X, I'm intelligent"?
Is that it? Is it how people claim intelligence?
I personally never claim to be intelligent, I'm an idiot, I'm literally not good at anything and I do not have any kind of intelligence in any amount. At least there is something we agree on, right?
Also, since you're good with languages and all, have you learned about this? Because while I understand it makes you feel like a special snowflake and a pseudo intellectual to use French words and other posh English words on a video game forum, when I was 11, I was taught that this thing was what made languages interesting. I also learned it had to be respected.
Is it something only French people try to follow? Or do you simply match every "bad" words I've used to describe you?
Here, I think I've answered the whole "am I top or bottom here?" you were curious about when it comes to you and me.
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Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4415
By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2015-01-22 11:07:06
I actually had your name written when I mentioned Quebecois as I was sure it would ring your bell.
Turns out Quebecois accent is pretty nice but the use of English words is hilarious.
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-01-22 11:08:37
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: » to most people in France Hey, guess what: I'm not in France. And being deliberately pretentious to mock the pretentious person was the intent there, as would be obvious to anyone who was half as intelligent as they think they are.
You really do genuinely believe you're smarter than everyone else whilst shouting "Damn these Jews!" I mean, you fit right in with everyone else on the internet, but for someone who keeps telling me how to "behave," you seem to let your rectum speak on your behalf more than it should.
Do we need to start in on Dunning-Kruger with you? Actually, that'd be wasted, since you seem to think I spend my time bragging. Hell, you're not even the worst offender when it comes to talking down your virtual nose while claiming not to do so, it just happens that this thread has concentrated the level of pretentious ***-sandwiches.
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: » Here, I think I've answered the whole "am I top or bottom here?" you were curious about when it comes to you and me. You what? Honey, I don't think you use the words "top" and "bottom" the way I use them, especially since you think I'm straight. The question I've repeatedly asked is for you to reveal your prejudice by way of your ethnicity.
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4415
By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2015-01-22 11:30:51
Never meant to say you're straight, you've made it clear you were homosexual before PW was ever killed (if not AV). Thought the joke was pretty clear, oh well.
You want to know my ethnicity? That's all? I won't tell you, so I guess you'll stick to your conclusion, which I'm fine with, in the end, as it doesn't really matter.
Won't comment on the rest, it's endless. I'm too dumb to argue with you anyway, and I'm even dumber when I try to do so.
By charlo999 2015-01-22 11:32:11
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: » to most people in France Hey, guess what: I'm not in France. And being deliberately pretentious to mock the pretentious person was the intent there, as would be obvious to anyone who was half as intelligent as they think they are.
You really do genuinely believe you're smarter than everyone else whilst shouting "Damn these Jews!" I mean, you fit right in with everyone else on the internet, but for someone who keeps telling me how to "behave," you seem to let your rectum speak on your behalf more than it should.
Do we need to start in on Dunning-Kruger with you? Actually, that'd be wasted, since you seem to think I spend my time bragging. Hell, you're not even the worst offender when it comes to talking down your virtual nose while claiming not to do so,it just happens that this thread has concentrated the level of pretentious ***-sandwiches.
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: » Here, I think I've answered the whole "am I top or bottom here?" you were curious about when it comes to you and me. You what? Honey, I don't think you use the words "top" and "bottom" the way I use them, especially since you think I'm straight. The question I've repeatedly asked is for you to reveal your prejudice by way of your ethnicity.
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-01-22 11:36:21
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »and I'm even dumber when I try to do so Truer words never spoken.
Refusing to answer a simple inquiry already says everything that need be said.
Charlo, the use of the term "honey" there was to emphasize my sexuality. Also, I'm not the one who claims he doesn't talk down his nose at people he disrespects. It's not irony when I've made it clear that I'm insulting the racist idiot.
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-01-22 11:53:33
Wait, people are attacking Onorgul based on his sexuality?
You know what, who the *** cares if he is gay or straight?
It doesn't matter to you because you will never meet him, nor interact with him outside of this forum/game.
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-01-22 11:56:19
No, no one is attacking me on that basis, Kingnobody. Senkyuutai implied that I was using French because it gets women's panties wet and I corrected him on that count.
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4415
By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2015-01-22 11:57:29
Nobody attacked his sexuality.
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By Bloodrose 2015-01-22 11:57:37
I care if he's gay or straight!
It's necessary for planning false arguments that ultimately try to belittle his credibility, in spite of his knowledge or fact-finding abilities unrelated to his sexuality or sexual preference.
And for interior decorating!
(This shouldn't come as a shocker, but it's all meant to be said with a HUGE serving of sarcasm, as no one should really use another's sexuality as part of intellectual debate, unless you happen to be intellectually stifled or lacking)
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-01-22 11:57:44
I misunderstood charlo's post then.
I thought he highlighted "honey" as a attack on your character.
 Bahamut.Milamber
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3692
By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-01-22 12:03:53
But certainly the examples you listed do not even compare to the impact of insulting (again, not criticizing) the Prophet on a Muslim person. By what criteria are the examples listed not even comparing?
You've just committed the exact offense you find offensive, belittling what someone else finds important.
You want the right to be pissed off that someone drew a picture of your chosen flavor? Fine.
But if the community posting on XIAH is representative, far more effort has gone into explaining why it is OK to be upset about a drawing, how it is unacceptable, and that maybe that shouldn't be done anymore, than it has been as to why it isn't acceptable to kill over it, and why that behavior IS unacceptable, and should be stopped, no questions or excuses asked.
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By Bloodrose 2015-01-22 12:05:12
But certainly the examples you listed do not even compare to the impact of insulting (again, not criticizing) the Prophet on a Muslim person. By what criteria are the examples listed not even comparing?
You've just committed the exact offense you find offensive, belittling what someone else finds important.
You want the right to be pissed off that someone drew a picture of your chosen flavor? Fine.
But if the community posting on XIAH is representative, far more effort has gone into explaining why it is OK to be upset about a drawing, how it is unacceptable, and that maybe that shouldn't be done anymore, than it has been as to why it isn't acceptable to kill over it, and why that behavior IS unacceptable, and should be stopped, no questions or excuses asked. I find this post offensive, and my personal insecurities have been offended. Please stop posting logic.
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 Lakshmi.Flavin
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-01-22 12:41:54
Its a drawing... there was in no way any justification for anyone to come and kill these people.
Muslims around the world should be criticizing the men that carried out this act of terror in their name rather than focusing on whether or not the entire world is as respectful as they might want them to be about their religion.
and Muslims are. But that does not mean #jesuischarlie.
Just because we can identify the crime of killing people doesn't mean we have to agree with the magazine, its tactics or refrain from questioning its motives.
Its seems we are more capable of critical and independent thought in this part of the world than yours.
You're actually at odds with the tiny minority in the muslim world that are crazies. Difference between you and us is that we recognize they're crazy, and are starting to think you all are too. No one is asking you to agree with the magazine.
Questioning its motives? Their motives are plain as day and have been for quite some time now.
Doubtful. You haven't shown any critical or independent thought. You've joined the masses in being offended by a drawing on a magazine and while you seem to acknowledge that you can identify a crime you seem more interested in attacking the magazine instead. Proponents of limiting free speech are rarely critical or independent thinkers.
I'm well aware that extremists are a minority.
The difference between the two of us is that you don't seem to realize that you're falling victim to the same things you accuse the rest of us of. The rest of the world is exposed to the these extreme actions with the muslim tag next to it and instead of seeing a general response of disdain for the action the focus tends to lean more on the percieved insult to the prophet Mohammed.
 Asura.Ccl
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1998
By Asura.Ccl 2015-01-22 12:44:19
Wait, there are people on here that said killing for it was ok?
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Lakshmi.Flavin
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-01-22 12:46:05
But certainly the examples you listed do not even compare to the impact of insulting (again, not criticizing) the Prophet on a Muslim person. To you maybe. I mean you just went on about how there is no objective measure and then went on to say that this is far worse.
People confronted by these people can be perceived as far greater than mere annoyances. Some of them pretty much call you a heathen straight out and tell you that you are going to hell unless you subscribe to their faith.
 Valefor.Sehachan
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-01-22 13:32:51
I didn't read and I'm showing outrage!!! Lol'd.
By Blazed1979 2015-01-22 14:03:35
Religion aside, people need to be held accountable for their own actions not as a group but individual. Every religion tends to take itself super seriously. But any person who can not laugh at themselves is going to end up being destructive to others and perhaps violent.
I have seen a lot of documentaries, and I have come to some quasi conclusion. Every religion has killed in the name of their religion, whether that is an aspect of their religion or not. Bible stories are often full of violence but the general gist is you shouldn't wage war and kill people. Islam is the same, with the exception of Jihad. Which was what Muhammad put in place, due to the warring tribes of the time he wanted it to be religiously ok to wage war and defend your own beliefs and people. The problem is this has been being exploited as an idea ever since pretty much he died. Maybe even before depending on your view. Extremists can use these phrases to convert people to doing atrocious acts whether it is completely out of context or not.
It is not that Islam is any more violent of a religion than any other religion at all. It is that the word and idea of Jihad has been exploited by extremists and militants to the point it is tradition to do so now. Now having said that, do I think if the idea of jihad did not exist in Islam would there be less violence in the world? Absolutely not. They would find some other way to bring people to their cause. This is just currently convenient. And as such Islam's name get dirtied over and over. I in no way fault islam or think it is in some way inferior to any other religion, or better either. These are just my observations.
Long ago Muhammad made the decision to include war and violence in the doctrine of the religion, even if in limited capacity. Since then it's been exploited to rally people to extremist causes. If that didn't exist, they'd find another way to rally people to their cause and Islam isn't the fault, but rather the condoning of various small groups of people that can't stand the way things are so much and turn to violence as a solution to change. So people that are blaming Islam at all are missing the boat. Big time. I assume most of you knew that already but just wanted to share what I learned watching all those documentaries. Also I'm aware the US and other nations resort to violence constantly. I wish the whole world would grow up. Unfortunately I feel violence is needed as long as one person is willing to be violent and for some stupid reason there's always one idiot who is.
While I agree with your overarching observations and points, I would just like to correct/add to your information.
The Prophet Mohammed did not include violence or warfare as a part of religion. The Quran clearly provides guidelines for when warfare is to be used and that is only as a repellent and deterrent.
When the Muslims took Mecca, every combatant and noncombatant received full amnesty with no strings attached. That includes no compulsion to convert to Islam.
However, you are most certainly correct about Islam having some violence attributed to it. I mentioned my previous points only to correct your opinion about the Prophet. He is innocent of these claims that are made surprisingly only by extremists on both sides of the current ideological conflict; enemies of Islam in the west, and enemies of Islam from within- the extremists such as ISIS.
Every Quranic verse that is quoted by both parties is taken out of context to suit one's narrative.
With such people words are lost, as is clearly demonstrated in this forum and the drivel that people have posted.
They post to prove a point and win points rather than to understand and increase their knowledge. They post out of arrogance and predetermined opinions without any merit other than Fox news and the likes.
They have here Muslims from the mainstream posting their values and beliefs and offering their side and opinions and rather than seeking to understand they respond with insults, derogatory language and overtones of racism that lack in both humanity and compassion.
What everyone here fails to understand is that the crazies in the middle east are the minority. Extreme minority. Yet it is seeming like the crazies in the west are becoming mainstream.
You don't see any calls or riots from mainstream muslim society to expel westerners. Even though in my own country westerners outnumber locals 10-1.
In terms of Tolerance, which is really at the core of all this, I would say we're a few thousand years ahead.. well those of us who observe the Quran and believe it to be the absolute benchmark for ethics and morality..which is the greater majority, by far.
Consequently, the mainstream thought in Islam doesn't look kindly on the Ummuyad or Abassite dynasties when it comes to how they spread Islam. Some modern thinkers such as Adnan Ibrahime even go far as to say that we, the people, have corrupted the message of Mohamed by allowing Jihadism as warfare to exist anywhere but in the pages of history, condemned. Jury is still out on this, but at least the conversation is happening. However, lets not delude ourselves into accepting the west tutelage over tolerance and human rights. 60 years of the modern and current form of Europe cannot erase the previous 2000 years of bloodshed and violence that trumps anything else the world has known.
http://www.voanews.com/content/five-european-countries-slammed-for-discrimination-against-muslims--148731215/370078.html
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 Siren.Mosin
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
By Siren.Mosin 2015-01-22 15:54:35
remember after 9/11 when Bush said "We're going on a crusade to find these people"?
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By Blazed1979 2015-01-22 17:22:18
Aside from putting down posters, I really liked your post Blazed, thanks.
I left them unnamed. That still won't stop them from jumping head first into that one..
Bahamut.Kara
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3544
By Bahamut.Kara 2015-01-22 23:22:51
Blazed1979 said: You don't see any calls or riots from mainstream muslim society to expel westerners. Even though in my own country westerners outnumber locals 10-1.
You don't see this from mainstrean Western society, either.
In fact, in Germany, where anti-islamisation protests took place you had larger pro-Islam-immigration protests.
You and others on this site that are advocating censorship laws for hurt feelings are insulting other cultures. Not that you and the others here seem to care. It's all about your right to not be offended, your need to have respect, and for people to be "civil" defined for only your benefit.
You and those advocating censorship are doing the exact same thing you are accusing your opposites of doing, refusing to realize that satire is a time honored tradition is Western countries. This has been pointed out multiple times by multiple people. Freedom of speech is relatively new (couple of hundred years old), but mocking important ideas and people has been around for over a thousand years, that I know about.
There are far too many censorship polices in place already, we don't need more.
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Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-01-23 00:05:45
but mocking important ideas and people has been around for over a thousand years, that I know about. Satire has been around since ancient Greece at least as far as the written record goes. And remember that satire is often aimed at authority figures, the disputation with which was a regular part of ancient Greece and Rome, so it seems unlikely that sarcasm and irony, two cornerstones of satire, were something unknown in any lettered society.
For that matter, Muslim countries have a history with satire that's as old as Islam itself. They also have a history of preserving knowledge, without which the Western world would have completely lost most of our heritage in Greece and Rome. I can't find any good references, but I have a sneaking suspicion that Islam probably has a strong anti-censorship tradition in its more liberal sects, if only based on the fact that Islam used to be a far more liberal and less hide-bound faith.
I'd say it's odd that Islam has turned so far from what it used to be, but Christianity and Judaism have done the same over time (c.f. Vatican II for an example of positive change, lest this be interpreted as purely negative).
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By Blazed1979 2015-01-23 00:31:34
Blazed1979 said: You don't see any calls or riots from mainstream muslim society to expel westerners. Even though in my own country westerners outnumber locals 10-1.
You don't see this from mainstrean Western society, either.
In fact, in Germany, where anti-islamisation protests took place you had larger pro-Islam-immigration protests.
You and others on this site that are advocating censorship laws for hurt feelings are insulting other cultures. Not that you and the others here seem to care. It's all about your right to not be offended, your need to have respect, and for people to be "civil" defined for only your benefit.
You and those advocating censorship are doing the exact same thing you are accusing your opposites of doing, refusing to realize that satire is a time honored tradition is Western countries. This has been pointed out multiple times by multiple people. Freedom of speech is relatively new (couple of hundred years old), but mocking important ideas and people has been around for over a thousand years, that I know about.
There are far too many censorship polices in place already, we don't need more.
Advocating is an overestimation of my position. Examining and scrutinizing is closer to home.
The trolls in these forums will insult and make things personal which seems to always force me to go off-tangent I'm dealing with it by blocking the one's who have a history of degrading the convos and discussions.
While you seem to want to misunderstand me, at least you stay on topic.
Now then, I'm not sure censorship is the correct word or represents my opinion.
I think if they're put in points, it will be easier to understand what it is I truly think.
1. Censor them? No
2. Publicize and politicize them? no
3. Promote them to people who will find them offensive? hell no
4. Is violence justified? hell no
5. Does the Muslim world need to apologize? no
6. Does the Muslim world need to address this? Yes, it is a symptom of something far more sinister but it is very limited in breadth. However in depth, it does require a discussion. However, the true cause is the poverty and oppression in the third world.
7. Does the west need to stop goading Muslims? YES!!!
8. Does the west need to stop lumping together 2 billion people into one oversimplified sentence? HELL YES
9. Do the cartoons serve any benefit to french or international society? No, it is simple bravado at this point, exhibitionism. Reaffirms freedom of expression but no one is asking or thinking "why express this".. everyone turned into a sheep... Baaaa
10. What should muslims do? Turn away, ignore, carry on. Boycott.
The above represent my opinion.
Now, can we get back to the discussion of what benefit do the cartoons have? NOT WHY FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IS IMPORTANT, BUT WHY EXPRESSING THIS DRIVEL IS IMPORTANT.
Some claim its critiquing Islam. That's a crock of ***. It has nothing to do with Islam message and it does anyone not informed about Islam a disservice.
Edit: Also, I apologize if I seemed too condescending recently. But you used sexist overtones and that has a way of irking me. Don't reduce this to a girl vs boy fight, that's silly.
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Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-01-23 00:42:15
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
2. Publicize and politicize them? no What does "politicize" mean here? Anyhow, by saying you don't want satire published, you are saying you want it censored. Period.
What you perhaps want is for them to go out of business, which is difficult to do if you protest them and bring attention to their business in the first place. You'd have to come up with a reasoned argument why people should cease paying for the magazine but... no reason exists. Which brings us to...
7. Does the west need to stop goading Muslims? YES!!! No. No, it doesn't. Indeed, the only way this argument makes any sense is if you follow it with "Because we'll kill you for it," and threat of violence is still not an adequate reason.
9. Do the cartoons serve any benefit to french or international society? No, it is simple bravado at this point, exhibitionism. Reaffirms freedom of expression but no one is asking or thinking "why express this".. everyone turned into a sheep... Baaaa And your hypocrisy rears its head. Again. You disagree with what they have to say (even though much of what they have to say is along the lines of "Those radical fundamentalists are *** who deserve our scorn and mockery, in part because they defy their own claims of religion"), ergo they have no value. Your judgment here is both flawed and limited, but you treat it as dictum.
10. What should muslims do? Turn away, ignore, carry on. Boycott. Why do you keep calling for censorship? Yes, you don't use the word because it's politically inconvenient to be honest (don't worry, I'm sure Allah doesn't have any commandments about lies), but your intention is clear.
Edit: Also, I apologize if I seemed too condescending recently. But you used sexist overtones and that has a way of irking me. Don't reduce this to a girl vs boy fight, that's silly. Good heavens, you completely missed the point of being called out rightly for being a sexist, didn't you?
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Bahamut.Kara
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3544
By Bahamut.Kara 2015-01-23 01:19:43
1. Censor them? No
2. Publicize and politicize them? no
3. Promote them to people who will find them offensive? hell no
4. Is violence justified? hell no
5. Does the Muslim world need to apologize? no
6. Does the Muslim world need to address this? Yes, it is a symptom of something far more sinister but it is very limited in breadth. However in depth, it does require a discussion. However, the true cause is the poverty and oppression in the third world.
7. Does the west need to stop goading Muslims? YES!!!
8. Does the west need to stop lumping together 2 billion people into one oversimplified sentence? HELL YES
9. Do the cartoons serve any benefit to french or international society? No, it is simple bravado at this point, exhibitionism. Reaffirms freedom of expression but no one is asking or thinking "why express this".. everyone turned into a sheep... Baaaa
10. What should muslims do? Turn away, ignore, carry on. Boycott.
The above represent my opinion.
Only going yo mention the numbers I have questions on, if not mentioned I agree.
1 and 2 contradict each other.
You don't want censorship but you don't want them publicized (published). You can't have both as restricting publishing something is censorship.
3 I'm really not sure what you mean. Did the magazine send free copies out to Muslims? This is a private magazine that before this happened was failing.
7 what do you mean by "the west" (again, this is a private business, if this was a government entity I'd agree)? What do you mean by goad? As stated before "the west" as a history of satire. Do feel the west is goading Christianity? Many Christians think so (you can find lots of articles about how only Christians are poked st) but they are also not correct.
This magazine made fun of all religions. Judaism seems to have a strong lobby in France and I've said before the crack down on comedians poking at Jews was wrong and many others throughout "the west" agree.
Previous cartoons (Denmark) was to be culturally inclusive. Danish humor is different than a lot of other countries, including my home country US.
8 um, you are right now in that sentence doing the same thing.
9 that is your opinion. I don't think holocaust deniers serve a purpose but I think they should still be allowed to talk their crazy talk.
Quote: Edit: Also, I apologize if I seemed too condescending recently. But you used sexist overtones and that has a way of irking me. Don't reduce this to a girl vs boy fight, that's silly. [/quote]
What I pointed out had nothing to do with me being female. I never in any of my posts said you had offended or insulted me. I haven't reported any of your posts, threads, etc or any of the other recent tirades from other posters.
Again, I was pointing out your aversion to making jokes/poking fun of things that Muslims hold dear but you find it acceptable to make fun of women or feminists (however that is defined).
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By Blazed1979 2015-01-23 01:53:48
Quote: 1 and 2 contradict each other Not in real marketing and PR terms, no.
There is an acute difference between not censoring something and publicizing and promoting it.
Publicizing and promoting it presents real problems for real individuals. Pushing these media across channels that can be offensive to segments of society should be regulated and limited. This is not obscene or at odds with anything in western culture. There are many ways in which lack of censorship can be abused. It can spiral out of control from being satire to evolving into racism and hate speech.
You might not find the word "Ni__er" offensive, but in the right context it can be perfectly fine, such as historical recounts, media where it is being used as a representation of reality to poke at racism. How is the word regulated? Well its hate speech to use the word in day-to-day exchanges. Publicizing the drawings across media with the aim of forcing the would-be offended party to consume it is not ethically right.
Allowing it go unregulated can have potential serious consequences. It comes at the expense of the offended. Hypothetical; do you see no harm in say John bringing these drawings to school to taunt Ahmed? What if they start being glued to Ahmed's locker at school? What if they start getting posted in mosques? Where do you see the line being drawn.
Again, censorship and lack of publicity and promotional exercises are not one and the same.
Quote: 7 what do you mean by "the west" (again, this is a private business, if this was a government entity I'd agree)? What do you mean by goad? As stated before "the west" as a history of satire. Do feel the west is goading Christianity? Many Christians think so (you can find lots of articles about how only Christians are poked st) but they are also not correct.
It started being the west because that is how the west presents the argument and point of contact - West vs Islam. Sure they say Radical Islam but all Islam believes in the Quran, the Prophet and their positions in the faith that is Islam.
Surely as you here are representing the "west" by claiming that satire is intrinsic absolute characteristic of the west.
A private business is not what we are talking about. We are talking about the said cultural and legality under which the publisher operates, in the western world.
The west also has a history of extreme prejudice, lack of tolerance, imperialism, destruction, world wars and genocide. That factors greatly into the point I am trying to make.
Quote: 8 um, you are right now in that sentence doing the same thing. Generalizing the west? To an extent, but not dangerously. There are more things that connect the US and Europe in terms of ideologies and culture than connect the Muslim world with itself.
Western Civilization does not have an "Islamic civilization" counter. You can Middle Eastern Civilization, or Eastern Civilization. But when one says "Islamic Civilization" it becomes preposterous because Muslims are spread across all continents in large numbers and differ with each other greatly.
Granted, I am generalizing.
Quote: What I pointed out had nothing to do with me being female. I never in any of my posts said you had offended or insulted me. I haven't reported any of your posts, threads, etc or any of the other recent tirads from other posters.
Again, I was pointing out your aversion to making jokes/poking fun of things that Muslims hold dear but you find it acceptable to make fun of women or feminists (however that is defined).
An example of where you went off tangent.I already explained that you misunderstood the point of the posts you make mention of. Lets leave it at that. I hate it when things get personal, it usually means the discussion isn't going to produce any tangible results. I do however recognize your point. Noted.
Now since I've addressed your response, kindly tell me if the fears I, and many like me, have (of course I'm going to offer some context, so that perhaps you as a human being can observe some compassion, without which nothing you say is of any merit at all)
Is it entirely farfetched to envision a europe where Muslims are persecuted and oppressed?
Because let me tell you for certain we absolutely do feel targeted on all fronts.
[+]
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-01-23 03:29:02
You babble about censoring publication and then fail to address the fact of publication. What a shock.
Hypothetical; do you see no harm in say John bringing these drawings to school to taunt Ahmed? What if they start being glued to Ahmed's locker at school? What if they start getting posted in mosques? Where do you see the line being drawn. Schools are a government-protected or private domain. Just as governmental language tends to conform to certain strictures that transcend what one may typically say in everyday conversation (in essence, civility), so too are certain actions restricted. It is interesting that you have to rely on schools, though, because children are exactly the people who must be instructed in the ethics that you are trying to violate. Children act in exactly the same way that, say, a psychopathic fundamentalist would do: they often resort to violence as a consequence of lacking emotional maturity.
As for a mosque, that's trespassing, unless the imam or someone else who can legitimately be held accountable for the property is the person responsible. One does not censor some idiot magazine on the hypothetical that someone else will violate property laws. More to the point, though, who needs stupid magazine images when they can just spray paint epithets?
Neither of these premises make a justification to provide a blanket censor. The best you might suggest is that something like Charlie Hebdo come with or require similar adults-only restrictions as pornography. Given how graphic it could be, it wouldn't be a difficult stretch to achieve that, at least here in the US. Europe has different standards, though the Sun in the UK is no longer showing topless girls on page 3, so times they are a-changin'.
Generalizing the west? To an extent, but not dangerously. I disagree. If it is dangerous to generalize a religion that has frequent problems of violent clashes in multiple disparate countries, it is certainly dangerous to characterize France, the UK, and the USA as being functionally identical, even if we share certain common roots. France and the UK have much nastier habits of censorship, for one (which isn't to say we don't have bouts of the problem here in the US, but they're almost exclusively localized).
Because let me tell you for certain we absolutely do feel targeted on all fronts. And you think censorship would help that? Your little compatriot, Senkyuutai, takes every opportunity to complain about how the Jewish Lobby fights to censor anything they deem offensive and is consequently asking to be attacked, killed, and ultimately eradicated from the face of the earth. Assuming the little anti-Semite is correct, do you imagine that following the exact same path, especially in the face of very similarly widespread aggression and distrust, is going to result in a different outcome?
It's not right for Muslims to feel targeted, in that peace-loving and law-abiding people should not have to know fear living in a just society. Seeking to trammel the rights of others, though, is not the action of someone who loves peace and freedom.
Not that any of this will get through to you.
On today's episode of P&R we take a trip to France.
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/1/7/at-least-10-deadinshootingatparissatiricalmagazine.html
Quote: Gunmen stormed the offices of satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo in central Paris on Wednesday, leaving at least 12 people dead and sparking a massive manhunt for the killers.
Clad all in black with hoods and machine guns and speaking flawless French, the three attackers, who are now believed to be on the run, forced one of the publication's cartoonists, Corinne Rey, who was at the office with her young daughter, to open the door. In an interview with the newspaper L'Humanité, she said the entire shooting, which left 10 journalists and two police officers dead, lasted about five minutes.
Staff members of the magazine, which has courted controversy and the offense of some Muslims for publishing cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad, were in an editorial meeting at the time. The gunmen headed straight for the paper's editor, Stéphane Charbonnier — widely known by his pen name, Charb — killing him and his police bodyguard, said Christophe Crepin, a police union spokesman on the scene.
Minutes later, gunmen were seen walking to a black car waiting below, calmly firing on a police officer, with one of the killers shooting him in the head as he writhed on the ground.
"Hey! We avenged the Prophet Muhammad! We killed Charlie Hebdo," one of the men shouted, according to a video shot from a nearby building and broadcast on French television. The video could not immediately be confirmed by Al Jazeera.
Large numbers of police and ambulances rushed to the scene, where shocked residents spilled into the streets. Reporters also saw bullet-riddled windows and people being carried out on stretchers.
Bernard Cazeneuve, France's interior minister, vowed to "track down the three criminals." He added that "all of our resources will be mobilized so that we can find out who committed this act and make sure they are punished for this act of barbarity." French authorities have said that all school trips and outdoor activities have been canceled while the gunmen are at large.
French President François Hollande headed to the scene shortly after Wednesday's shooting and said that the dead were "cowardly assassinated" and that four others were critically injured. He described the shooting as a "terrorist operation against a newspaper that has been threatened several times." He added that 40 people were being protected in the aftermath of the shooting.
Charlie Hebdo as drawn repeated threats for its caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad, among other controversial features. The newspaper's offices were firebombed in 2011 after a spoof issue featuring a caricature of Muhammad on its cover.
A year later, the magazine published more Muhammad drawings amid an uproar over an anti-Muslim film. The cartoons depicted Muhammad naked and in demeaning or pornographic poses. The French government defended free speech even as it rebuked Charlie Hebdo for fanning tensions.
"We treat the news like journalists. Some use cameras. Some use computers. For us, it's a paper and pencil," the Muhammad cartoonist, who goes by the name Luz, told The Associated Press in 2012. "A pencil is not a weapon. It's just a means of expression."
Charbonnier, among the 10 journalists killed Wednesday, also defended the Muhammad cartoons.
He told Le Monde newspaper two years ago, "I'd rather die standing than live on my knees." One of his last cartoons, published in this week's issue, seemed an eerie premonition. "Still no attacks in France," an extremist fighter says. "Wait — we have until the end of January to present our New Year's wishes."
The attack, for which no one has yet claimed responsibility, comes amid what a number of commentators have identified as rising xenophobia in Europe, with thousands of protesters in several German cities rallying earlier this week against Muslim immigration. France's Muslim population of 5 million is Europe's largest.
"I am extremely angry. These are criminals, barbarians. They have sold their soul to hell. This is not freedom. This is not Islam, and I hope the French will come out united at the end of this," said Hassen Chalghoumi, imam of the Drancy mosque in Paris' Seine-St.-Denis northern suburb.
New York–based advocacy group the Committee to Protect Journalists condemned what its deputy director, Robert Mahoney, called "a brazen assault on free expression in the heart of Europe."
I fear this will only continue to stir the growing xenophobia in Europe against Muslims worldwide. People can keep saying this 'isn't their Islam' but the extremists are the ones dominating the court of public opinion and that can only spell disaster.
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