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Scottish Independence (?)
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-11 09:21:11
You know what would be great?
If everyone could stop being a gigantic bag of *** to each other so things like the EU and NATO were entirely unnecessary.
That would be just...just fantastic.
But nope! We'll just stick with the "bag of ***" plan, apparently.
By volkom 2014-09-11 09:22:05
what would be the economic ramifications if scotland gets its freedom and doesn't get into nato and eu?
Leviathan.Chaosx
Serveur: Leviathan
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-11 09:24:41
You know what would be great?
If everyone could stop being a gigantic bag of *** to each other so things like the EU and NATO were entirely unnecessary.
That would be just...just fantastic.
But nope! We'll just stick with the "bag of ***" plan, apparently. Even sucks more when the biggest 'bag of ***' are things like the EU and NATO.
Leviathan.Chaosx
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-11 09:25:44
what would be the economic ramifications if scotland gets its freedom and doesn't get into nato and eu? Actual freedom. It wouldn't have somebody thousands of miles away telling them what they have to do and can't do without knowing a thing about them.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-11 09:25:52
I don't agree with everything said, but it's the take of one guy from Forbes who probably knows more about it than me.
5 Reasons Why Scottish Independence Would Be An Economic Disaster
For reference, I really am just providing info I've seen here. I'd like to reiterate that international finance is about as far from my fiend as it gets. @.@
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-11 09:27:22
You know what would be great?
If everyone could stop being a gigantic bag of *** to each other so things like the EU and NATO were entirely unnecessary.
That would be just...just fantastic.
But nope! We'll just stick with the "bag of ***" plan, apparently. Even sucks more when the biggest 'bag of ***' are things like the EU and NATO. what would be the economic ramifications if scotland gets its freedom and doesn't get into nato and eu? Actual freedom. It wouldn't have somebody thousands of miles away telling them what they have to do and can't do without knowing a thing about them.
I get what you're saying to a degree, but I'm going to go ahead and say the biggest bags of *** are things like ISIS, aggressive governments trying to expand their territories unjustly, etc. :p
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Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-09-11 09:32:53
I have a certain amount of difficulty understanding these secession movements.
As our world has gotten progressively smaller (in our lifetimes, no less, much less over the centuries), national borders seem even more arbitrary than they inherently are. Most laws are fairly uniform across a given socio-political region (e.g., North America, western Europe, the Middle East). I know Europe is something of a morass because half of it is socialized to a considerable extent and that hugely impacts tax rates (though, simultaneously, also impacts access to vital services).
What really changes if Scotland secedes? Or Quebec from Canada? Or even Texas from the US? It's easy to point at loss of tax revenue or some such, but the economies of such secessionist states don't evaporate when they become sovereign so the flow of currency will be impacted far less than alarmists suggest. On the other hand, though, what is to be gained in most instances from seceding? It would be one thing if the politics and economy of the secessionist state were radically different from its parent, but when is that ever the case?
When the third-largest country in the world can barely differentiate its regions and cities anymore (Atlanta is not hugely different from Seattle, New York and LA are closer in tone than ever before, and that wasn't the case even 30 years ago), it is baffling that national pride still exists. There's hardly even linguistic pride in Scotland. By a wide margin, more Irish people per capita speak Gaelige than Scots per capita speak Gàidhlig in spite of both having a similar history of suppression under the UK regime.
Leviathan.Chaosx
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-11 09:33:00
You know what would be great?
If everyone could stop being a gigantic bag of *** to each other so things like the EU and NATO were entirely unnecessary.
That would be just...just fantastic.
But nope! We'll just stick with the "bag of ***" plan, apparently. Even sucks more when the biggest 'bag of ***' are things like the EU and NATO. what would be the economic ramifications if scotland gets its freedom and doesn't get into nato and eu? Actual freedom. It wouldn't have somebody thousands of miles away telling them what they have to do and can't do without knowing a thing about them.
I get what you're saying to a degree, but I'm going to go ahead and say the biggest bags of *** are things like ISIS, aggressive governments trying to expand their territories unjustly, etc. :p Ask yourself this, which came first?
By volkom 2014-09-11 09:33:38
You know what would be great?
If everyone could stop being a gigantic bag of *** to each other so things like the EU and NATO were entirely unnecessary.
That would be just...just fantastic.
But nope! We'll just stick with the "bag of ***" plan, apparently. Even sucks more when the biggest 'bag of ***' are things like the EU and NATO. what would be the economic ramifications if scotland gets its freedom and doesn't get into nato and eu? Actual freedom. It wouldn't have somebody thousands of miles away telling them what they have to do and can't do without knowing a thing about them.
I get what you're saying to a degree, but I'm going to go ahead and say the biggest bags of *** are things like ISIS, aggressive governments trying to expand their territories unjustly, etc. :p Ask yourself this, which came first? nazis
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By volkom 2014-09-11 09:34:16
that was a good read. I feel like i learned something today and its not even 10am
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-11 09:36:13
You know what would be great?
If everyone could stop being a gigantic bag of *** to each other so things like the EU and NATO were entirely unnecessary.
That would be just...just fantastic.
But nope! We'll just stick with the "bag of ***" plan, apparently. Even sucks more when the biggest 'bag of ***' are things like the EU and NATO. what would be the economic ramifications if scotland gets its freedom and doesn't get into nato and eu? Actual freedom. It wouldn't have somebody thousands of miles away telling them what they have to do and can't do without knowing a thing about them.
I get what you're saying to a degree, but I'm going to go ahead and say the biggest bags of *** are things like ISIS, aggressive governments trying to expand their territories unjustly, etc. :p Ask yourself this, which came first?
I have a hard time pinning your exact beliefs down around when you're just trying to play devil's advocate. It's really annoying sometimes.
All I'm saying is that everyone needs to stop being *** to each other. It's just apparently harder for some than others.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-11 10:05:26
Fenrir.Candlejack said: »the precedent it sets for Catalonian secessionists in Spain I'm ready to be the next aragonian queen. My plan has finally set into motion *pyramid hands* Meanwhile, my own plan continues to advance quite nicely. Namely, to sit back while the rest of the world runs on autopilot, and watch as everything burns to the ground. With the gross arrogance and rampant stupidity of the U.S gun culture, it's only a matter of time till this actually happens, and I won't have to lift a finger or spend one red cent beyond enough to get a couple bottles of whiskey to celebrate.
YouTube Video Placeholder
Your anti-gun thing is nearly as disturbing as the extreme pro-gun folks who seem turned on by their weapons. There was zero reason to bring that into this thread, yet here you are...
Valefor.Sehachan
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Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-09-11 10:07:37
And even if such a catastrophic fallout were to happen, what would there be to celebrate? "I was right and you were wrong"?
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Bahamut.Kara
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Posts: 3544
By Bahamut.Kara 2014-09-11 10:14:09
2. All fiat currencies are pegged to the dollar atm. When the dollar loses its status as a world reserve currency, HK will still have foreign assets as a backup.
No.
Fiat currency means there is no underlying asset only government backing.
Pegged means something has a fixed rate. The gold standard would be a pegged or fixed exchange rate. You could also say it has a reserve currency standard, where country A's currency is acting like a physical underlying asset for country B.
The Hong Kong Dollar literally has a fixed exchange rate to USD and has for 30 years (where it has officially changed 4 times, iirc)
Quote: A bank can issue a Hong Kong dollar only if it has the equivalent exchange in US dollars on deposit. The currency board system ensures that Hong Kong's entire monetary base is backed with US dollars at the linked exchange rate.
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Leviathan.Chaosx
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-11 10:26:30
You know what would be great?
If everyone could stop being a gigantic bag of *** to each other so things like the EU and NATO were entirely unnecessary.
That would be just...just fantastic.
But nope! We'll just stick with the "bag of ***" plan, apparently. Even sucks more when the biggest 'bag of ***' are things like the EU and NATO. what would be the economic ramifications if scotland gets its freedom and doesn't get into nato and eu? Actual freedom. It wouldn't have somebody thousands of miles away telling them what they have to do and can't do without knowing a thing about them.
I get what you're saying to a degree, but I'm going to go ahead and say the biggest bags of *** are things like ISIS, aggressive governments trying to expand their territories unjustly, etc. :p Ask yourself this, which came first?
I have a hard time pinning your exact beliefs down around when you're just trying to play devil's advocate. It's really annoying sometimes.
All I'm saying is that everyone needs to stop being *** to each other. It's just apparently harder for some than others. Most global issues today stem from unresolved conflicts of interest from World War I and especially World War II.
You can temporary pin them down for awhile, but by doing so they just reemerge stronger than before. Sometimes they use issues that were previous thought to be resolved, even before the 20th century.
Iraq should be a clear example of this from all points of view.
The decision of George H. W. Bush to deter Hussein, rather than venture into Iraq, is probably the only smart decision a president has made in a very long time.
On a more generic scale, you can't restrict movement and trade, because you disagree with their culture, beliefs, or ideas. Or even worse, force them to comply to your standards. By doing so you only encourage them to be more rebellious. And the more you think you're trying to prevent a problem, the more you wind up causing more problems.
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Bismarck.Ramyrez
Serveur: Bismarck
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Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-11 10:31:40
Quote: Most global issues today stem from unresolved conflicts of interest from World War I and especially World War II.
You can temporary pin them down for awhile, but by doing so they just reemerge stronger than before. Sometimes they use issues that were previous thought to be resolved, even before the 20th century.
Iraq should be a clear example of this from all points of view.
The decision of George H. W. Bush to deter Hussein, rather than venture into Iraq, is probably the only smart decision a president has made in a very long time.
On a more generic scale, you can't restrict movement and trade, because you disagree with their culture, beliefs, or ideas. Or even worse, force them to comply to your standards. By doing so you only encourage them to be more rebellious. And the more you think you're trying to prevent a problem, the more you wind up causing more problems.
When that culture, beliefs, and ideas includes oppression, mistreatment, and various other human rights violations (ie: 'being a *** to others', in my vernacular), what then, in your perfect world? You just let it happen?
By fonewear 2014-09-11 10:31:47
I looked up pegged and I'm still recovering...
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-11 10:32:27
I looked up pegged and I'm still recovering...
At least you didn't (I hope) learn through experience.
Otherwise I'd ask if you're walking straight yet.
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By fonewear 2014-09-11 10:34:32
Sad part is that Urban Dictionary comes up before real dictionaries...
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By volkom 2014-09-11 10:35:21
Sad part is that Urban Dictionary comes up before real dictionaries... who's to say that urban dictionary isn't a real dictionary
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By fonewear 2014-09-11 10:36:11
It is but mostly for slang terms.
By fonewear 2014-09-11 10:40:49
When arguments run their course you basically have semantics/define words etc.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-11 10:41:45
When arguments run their course you basically have semantics/define words etc.
We seem to turn to that earlier and earlier these days, though...
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Caitsith.Zahrah
Serveur: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
By Caitsith.Zahrah 2014-09-11 10:42:22
There are some major issues (specifically financial) that have to be tackled if Scotland votes yes.
Off the top of my head:
1. They have to apply to become a member of the EU and NATO. It takes years to be admitted to the EU and all member states have to agree. NATO requires certain terms that Scotland may not want to agree to (e.g. Nuclear weapons holding facility).
2. Will they be using the british pound or not? Will it be sanctioned by the UK or not? This will affect how much cash they need to keep on hand, the ease of conducting business, and ease of consumers purchasing items.
3. All of their businesses that sell outside of Scotland to the EU are immediately labeled as third country and Scotland must negotiate treaties on their own. That means no access to free movement of goods or people, no protection for being part of the EU (e.g. the goods will have higher import taxes when being sold to EU countries and can be discriminated against, same with their citizens).
This is a huge decision, that will have far reaching consequences. I hope the Scottish people understand the full ramifications of what they are entering (or exiting).
In the long run it may be better or it may be worse, either way it will be different. Short term there is vast uncertainity and the markets will react to that.
Even with the wait on acceptance within the EU or Nato, they wouldn't have official sovereignty until 2016, from what I understand. So, add another year and a quarter or more.
Apparently, while this limbo period is taking place, Scots would still be able to vote in the upcoming general election. I wonder how that would effect the UK's political landscape after possibly losing Scotland. (At least they could break away from a anachronistic house of Parliament based on peerage, which is a life-term. Not saying that the US, at present, doesn't unofficially have that. LOL!)
What I found strange is that they would still be basically a commonwealth under the queen, like Canada and Australia. I was really hoping they would completely break that tie.
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Garuda.Chanti
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Posts: 11334
By Garuda.Chanti 2014-09-11 10:43:08
what would be the economic ramifications if scotland gets its freedom and doesn't get into nato and eu? Actual freedom. It wouldn't have somebody thousands of miles away telling them what they have to do and can't do without knowing a thing about them. But total economic disaster.
By fonewear 2014-09-11 10:43:29
I'm all for semantics but not as a form of argument. If you really are against war racism etc give real reasons why. A lot of people are far too emotional in arguments or resort to name calling etc. You can prove a point without being a jerk.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-11 10:44:53
I'm all for semantics but not as a form of argument. If you really are against war racism etc give real reasons why. A lot of people are far too emotional in arguments or resort to name calling etc. You can prove a point without being a jerk.
I can't.
But that's because I am a jerk.
Your theory is sound in principle, at least.
By fonewear 2014-09-11 10:46:21
See I don't have a problem with jerks. I do have a problem with jerks in denial.
Ragnarok.Nausi
Serveur: Ragnarok
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Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-09-11 10:46:24
OK, then I will repost this from RP&R where it got ignored:
Go go Scottish independence!! Please tell me what shape Scotland would be in today if they had declared Scottish independence in 2007?
You know, the year before the American commercial banks crashed the global economy leaving the Royal Bank of Scotland holding several billion pounds worth of worthless, but AAA rated, mortgage backed securities.
Which, as I remember, the Bank of England wound up covering.
Quote: The British government owns 81 percent of R.B.S. after the bank received a £45 billion bailout during the financial crisis. Source
OK, that's a bit more than several.
Iceland's still around isn't it? Besides 07' is an arbitrary number, would they be in the same spot you think they would be in today if they have declared independence in 01'? Nothing wrong with doing things your own way.
Now for some good(?) news!
I'm not sure how many have been keeping up with the upcoming vote and the precedent it sets for Catalonian secessionists in Spain. I've been wondering how it could also upset Parliamentary majority, which at the moment is center-left (Labor), and could it lead to Cameron's (center-right (Conservative-Unionist)) resignation?
As it seems, I think the UK needs Scotland more than Scotland needs the UK.
Quote: It's looking like bad news for the rest of the UK's political establishment
ANDREW GRICE Author Biography POLITICAL EDITOR Monday 08 September 2014
In the two-year Scottish referendum campaign, Whitehall and Westminster have been in denial about the prospect of Scotland voting Yes to independence. Suddenly, as the opinion polls show it as a very real prospect, the London-based political establishment is anxiously thinking about the implications.
“The consequences, not just for England, but Wales and Northern Ireland, are frankly unimaginable,” one senior Whitehall official said today. This is not an obscure debate about more devolution: some MPs fear the peace process in Northern Ireland, or at least order on the streets, could be at risk, and that there could be new demands for a united Ireland. There would inevitably be calls for a stronger Welsh Assembly, more devolution to the English regions and even an English Parliament.
If Scots vote to walk out of the marriage, there is no guarantee of an amicable “velvet divorce”. Alex Salmond could afford to be conciliatory in victory. He would invite a vanquished Alistair Darling to join all-party talks to ensure a smooth transition to “independence day” in March 2016.
Yet an angry public mood in the rest of the UK, especially in England, could push the political parties into rejecting a friendly separation. Cabinet ministers already describe the SNP’s timetable as “completely unrealistic,” when there are complex issues like the Trident nuclear weapons base on the table. Speaking privately, they suspect that there would be trade-offs, and that Mr Salmond might ditch his “non-nuclear Scotland” policy in return for concessions in other areas.
But it is now dawning on MPs that a public backlash from English voters against the Scots could force the Government to take a much harder line than ministers expect. If the Scots reject enjoying the “best of both worlds” - more devolution and the security of the UK – then why should the remaining UK do them any favours during the divorce settlement? Yes campaign material as the campaign ahead of the Scottish independence referendum continues Yes campaign material as the campaign ahead of the Scottish independence referendum continues
Such pressures could force the Conservatives to take a hardline stance on the negotiations in their manifesto at next May’s general election. A Scottish breakaway would provide yet more ammunition for Ukip. If Nigel Farage demanded a tough line in the talks, the Tories might have to match it. In turn, that could put pressure on Labour to follow suit.
Who would be leading the Tories at the time? We don’t know. Mr Cameron has dismissed the idea that he would have to resign after presiding over the end of the 300-year Union. But he has to say that now. If he were to hint at anything else, it would allow the SNP to shout: “Vote Yes to kick out the Tory Prime Minister.”
Cameron critics on the Tory backbenches have already started to discuss amongst themselves whether a Yes vote next week could be the trigger for a coup against him as party leader. They would need the votes of 46 of the 304 Tory MPs to force a vote of confidence. Opinions are divided over whether this would be the right moment to strike. Some Tories want to wait until after next May’s general election. If there were a hung parliament and Mr Cameron tried to continue in coalition with the Liberal Democrats, then Tory rebels say he would be “toast”. The Better Together leader Alistair Darling campaigning in Edinburgh, where he met voters and set out his case for a No Vote in the Scottish Referendum The Better Together leader Alistair Darling campaigning in Edinburgh, where he met voters and set out his case for a No Vote in the Scottish Referendum
Would Cameron fall on his sword after a Yes vote? “I think his instinct would be to carry on and steady the ship,” said a long-standing friend. “What could save him is that the general election is not far off. But if things got really awful, and there was economic turmoil, then it might be different.”
There is already speculation in Tory circles over who might succeed Mr Cameron. The rumour mill suggests that George Osborne would be ruled out because his nuclear weapon in the referendum campaign – that Scotland could not keep the pound – backfired on the No camp, adding to Mr Salmond’s list of threats, bullying and bluffs. With Boris Johnson unlikely to return to Parliament until next May, William Hague, the Commons Leader, who led the Tories from 1997 to 2001, is seen as the most likely caretaker.
A Yes vote next week could provoke calls for next May’s general election to be delayed, on the grounds that there would be little point in electing 59 Scottish MPs for 10 months until “independence day.” That would require legislation to overturn the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act. But it might prove too controversial, as it would allow Ukip to accuse the Tories and Lib Dems of clinging on to power.
In the long run, some Labour figures fear they would struggle to win another Commons majority without their solid block of Scottish MPs - 41 at present. The gossip among Blairite MPs is that their hero could still “win” England, but that a left-leaning leader could not. A Yes vote could be very bad news for Ed Miliband.
Source.
A wee bit o' background.
Side note: I also find it funny that the birth of the next heir was announced a little prematurely in terms of unspoken pregnancy etiquette, but just in time to drum up pro-union sentiments.
New brother/sister? Ugh! Balls!
EDIT: Trying to discuss this in 'Random P&R' was probably doomed from the beginning, but it does give a little credence to our UK counter-parts being more sensible for simply avoiding that thread.
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