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I would say both are guilty of using terrorist tactics this late in the game. Just to be accurate.

Killing less people directly doesn't absolve them of sending civilians into oblivion by staging them at announced targets, that have been requested to be evacuated, but it doesn't exonerate the IDF from firing anyways.

You guys are not being very objective....you can't say "X is terrorist because I(US government) said so" "X is terrorist because they want to establish an islamic state" or "X is terrorist because they dig tunnels" None of the above statement truly defines terrorism.

According to one of the articles Chaos posted, Hezbollah hasn't had any direct contact with Israel this time, and has only done so much as to finance armaments for Hamas, as it hasn't sent or used any of it's members to help the fight.

Mexicans got pissed that the price of tacos went up, went to San Antonio to protest it at a Taco Bell, where the employees were slaughtered after 13 days of bombardment of nachos and burritos.

After which, General Sam Houston decided that enough was enough, caught them all sleeping in the middle of the day and surrounded them with the Texas Rangers (ballteam, not police force) and forced them to pay full price for their tacos.

No, we can't, because that's not an objective viewpoint.

Hamas tries its best to kill plenty of Israeli innocents. The thing is, Israel is better at defending itself from missle attacks than Palestine.

If all launched Hamas missles actually struck Israel, the death toll of Israeli innocents would be staggeringly higher than Palestine's.

I will agree, however, than Israel has lost any moral high ground it may have once had simply claiming self defense. They've escalated to the point of pre-emptively striking targets and killing innocents.

All you'll get me to agree to is that Israel has lost a lot of good will on the part of a lot of Americans (myself included) and they've begun sinking to the level of their terrorist enemy.

But if you think I'm going to suddenly jump up and exclaim that I've changed heart and now have good will toward a group that formed with the specific intention of terrorist activity and hostile takeover (Hamas) -- a group that intentionally and publically injures, tortures, and kills innocents -- then you're sadly mistaken.

Also, whats wrong with an Islamic state? There were many before and they were pretty good. Al Andulus was awesome.
That, and the Zionists are calling for a Jewish state.

Why can one people ask for a state based on their faith and the others cant?

And ballpark admission

Dude, which side is occupying the other?
I mean what do you expect the palestinians to just dig their own graves and be like "All right, you guys were right.. we should be dead. This land is yours because God said so in that book of yours. Do us a favor and lay the sand on our dead carcases after we've all killed ourselves"

Aha, see, now you've touched on the crux of an issue for me.

I don't think ANY faith-based states should exist.

A lot of people do support a 2 state permanent peace agreement.

However, it seems that neither want to budge. One wants to expand it's settlements, the other, wants to wipe out an entire race of people in the most violent way possible, and uses it's own citizens as shields.

I agree. I think the people should be allowed to practice their faith individually without any obstruction from the state providing their faith doesn't infringe upon others. If the society is overwhelmingly jewish or muslim or christian, I imagine the democratic process will manifest their will.

No. See, you're full of ***saying you've read the entire thread, because I'm going to have to keep rehashing myself here.

What I'm saying is both sides need to ditch the religion ***, learn that eventually you have to let the past be the past, and work together to build a peaceful region. Neither side is willing to do that. Because..."holy land", apparently.

*** religious nonsense.

I think religion shoul go the way of the Dodo. I live in a mostly-Christian society that manifests it's revolting will all-too-often.

Dude you occupied my country ! Starring Ashton Kutcher.


Dude you are a Zionist pig !


Dude you blew up the Gaza Strip !


Dude where's my religious freedom !

Etc

Ramyrez's point is that land/government/heck, anything should be dictated by a faith-based idea.

Meaning that Israel shouldn't exist because we located a bunch of people who believe the same thing about an intangible existence, but because a bunch of people like the area and decided to settle there.

"It" doesn't use its citizens as shields. "It" IS its Citizens. This is a popular cause across the muslim world.

All muslims want the palestinians to have their own state. The difference between them and Hamas is that they choose different tactics. Some diplomatic, some economical, some political.

However, Hamas are the people on the ground who have had their children, wives, uncles, fathers and mothers killed/murdered/raped etc by the Israelis. That and they have been cut off from the rest of the world. They're in war. I don't exactly expect them to walk over to an Israeli settlement and wave a white flag to the family of immigrants who are fresh off the boat but currently living in their old home which they were evicted from.

FTFY

Dude I should stop using the word dude.

go sell that idea to ISIS, we'll wait here for you to finish...

You forgot the biggest seller of them all:

Dude! It's Bush's fault!

Right. I forgot. The children willingly get themselves killed for the cause to make Israel look bad.

"Religion should be dropped" is not a very useful argument since it's clearly unrealistic. If you wanna discuss at least be real.

So my basic argument is this:

I'm sorry you live in a christian community - what does that mean by the way? Christian can mean a lot of things. Are you sure is the christian aspect of the community you have issue with or is it the ignorant aspect?

I'm democratic. unbending, absolutely democratic.
I'm also religious, but religiously tolerant.
I'm also secularists.

How?
Simple Hypothetical -If I'm Muslim and my community is Christian, well I gotta deal with it. That means if they vote no Halal food on the supermarket shelves, that's my problem. I can either live with it, move or lobby against it. What I CANNOT do is force them to believe something else, or start taking illegal action to get Halal food on the supermarket shelves. Should that community vote that I can have Halal food send just to me because I'm a part of the community and it isn't harming anyone else, good for them. Appreciated. Thank you.

Where you and I seem to differ is I do not want to force people to abandon religion. They can have religion. As long as I can have mine in my own private life. I just do not want politics and religion merged or fused together.

That means its fine if the inhabitants of the state are religious. But I don't want religious clerics dictating laws. I want technocrats dictating the laws.

Religion is a personal choice, it should be personal. If everyone in a community are religious, than the democratic process will safegaurd their beliefs.

Expecting this to end at all is unrealistic if we can't get people to let go of religion, or at least very large aspects of it.

While not all of those who believe in Islam believe this way, the ones currently engaged in military conflict tend to believe their religion demands of them what they're doing. If you can't get them to abandon this core belief of their religion, expecting an end to any conflict in which they are engaged is a pipe dream.

Unrealistic in today's society, unknown in future though.

All it would take is proof that God does not exist and/or a major event to happen for this to take place.

For example: nearly all religious texts (taken seriously of course, not the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or other such religions) state that humans are the only beings in the universe. If aliens make contact tomorrow, that would throw the entire religious community in disarray because one of their biggest aspects is the singularity of humans in existence (and that humans are the spitting image of God and all that jazz).

Aliens land and God is proven to not exist. Religions abolished, and/or Spaghetti Monster takes over the world.

Cant tell if you're being sarcastic or really think that? (In case its sarcasm, sorry, I've read some posts on this thread that have shocked me) in case you really think that - the media has demonized the palestinians to the point that your logic and rationality are detached from the issue.

Religion intermixes too often with politics in the United States is basically what I mean. I don't really feel like getting into those topics here as they're 1) not pertinent to the topic and 2) if I'm going to derail further, it's going to be for beer and puppies again.

This is me reading this thread:

If your assertion is that Hamas has never used its own non-combatants as chess pieces and placed them in danger/gotten them killed as a PR move, then you're probably beyond rational discussion.

Both sides are terrible in this conflict. Period.