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Random Politics & Religion #00
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-10-02 10:13:35
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The idea that more guns will bring about more peace is completely unfounded. Who's arguing that? I know there are people out there with that notion, but they are not here talking about it, are they?
We cannot have a discussion if you are referring to the viewpoints of people who are not part of the discussion....
Jets argument is that more guns, by following the strict word of the 2A will bring about more 'peace'. Because guns are a human right for defense. I know he's passionate about this topic (lord knows, I'll never forget personal nuclear weapons) but it's a common argument heard here and outside XIAH. Jet is Jet. You aren't going to change his mind, so there's no point in trying to do so. It's time to move on from his viewpoint and talk about something a little more constructive.
Edit: Nine hundred and Ninety-Nine Pages?!?!?!?!?
By Aeyela 2015-10-02 10:13:48
The US does not have ready access to guns. You would have to commit a crime to obtain such guns you are assuming is "ready access"
By then, those "nutters" are already committed to murder, just the act of breaking the law is proof enough of that.
The vast majority of people in America own a firearm of some kind. You can not keep using the "The gunmen have already broken the law to get one" as a defensive argument for possessing them. Yes, of course they've broken the law, they're going to on to break the law in a far more catastrophic way. This is a very empty argument.
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-10-02 10:13:57
Mass shootings are all JFK's fault. 
[+]
 Siren.Mosin
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
By Siren.Mosin 2015-10-02 10:16:53
you're just mad that I'm right.
[+]
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20130
By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-10-02 10:17:05
I blame the american indians. They really should have burned all our ships to the waterline when they had the chance.
we have been over this several times before but you seem to be new here... so here it is again.
Americans, by and large, were unceremoniously kicked out of every decent country on the planet. Malcontents, religious nut jobs, debtors and criminals of every persuasion.
Let's face it, it's not what anyone would consider as "good breeding stock" and yet here we are 330 million strong.
yes sprinkled in among the psychos and lunatics were a few innocent, rational, decent, hard working, kindhearted people...and we are doing the best we can to get rid of as many of them as possible...
[+]
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-10-02 10:17:15
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The idea that more guns will bring about more peace is completely unfounded. Who's arguing that? I know there are people out there with that notion, but they are not here talking about it, are they?
We cannot have a discussion if you are referring to the viewpoints of people who are not part of the discussion....
Jets argument is that more guns, by following the strict word of the 2A will bring about more 'peace'. Because guns are a human right for defense. I know he's passionate about this topic (lord knows, I'll never forget personal nuclear weapons) but it's a common argument heard here and outside XIAH. Jet is Jet. You aren't going to change his mind, so there's no point in trying to do so. It's time to move on from his viewpoint and talk about something a little more constructive.
What's to discuss here? The result of mass shootings is a complex byproduct of American gun fetishry, guns available in bloat, mental illnesses, hyperpartisan behavior, criminal behavior and on and on.
What's gun control going to do? Make ***worse, pushing guns into a dark undermarket.
What's more guns going to do? Probably wind up in escalating alot of incidents that would have gone to blows.
If someone has a quick answer to gun massacres in the US, please reveal it because the left/right push/pull is just a symptom that no one really has an answer.
By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 10:20:12
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The idea that more guns will bring about more peace is completely unfounded. Who's arguing that? I know there are people out there with that notion, but they are not here talking about it, are they?
We cannot have a discussion if you are referring to the viewpoints of people who are not part of the discussion....
Jets argument is that more guns, by following the strict word of the 2A will bring about more 'peace'. Because guns are a human right for defense. I know he's passionate about this topic (lord knows, I'll never forget personal nuclear weapons) but it's a common argument heard here and outside XIAH.
I don't recall necessarily arguing that, but it's possible.
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-10-02 10:20:37
The US does not have ready access to guns. You would have to commit a crime to obtain such guns you are assuming is "ready access"
By then, those "nutters" are already committed to murder, just the act of breaking the law is proof enough of that.
The vast majority of people in America own a firearm of some kind. You can not keep using the "The gunmen have already broken the law to get one" as a defensive argument for possessing them. Yes, of course they've broken the law, they're going to on to break the law in a far more catastrophic way. This is a very empty argument. Except in the rare case where the ATF accidentally allowed a firearm sale to one of these "nutters" you are talking about (background checks among other checks are one of the things you go through when you apply to own a firearm, like I said previously), these people generally do not own a firearm legally. And 30~33% of Americans do not make a vast majority, by the way. ( Source)
But you were trying to put "attempt" as a deterrent of these people who already are ready and willing to commit murder. Just because they cannot buy a gun at a gun store doesn't mean that they will automatically stop at committing murder.
By Aeyela 2015-10-02 10:22:50
Nobody has said murder is impossible without a gun. What we're saying is it's much easier with a gun.
[+]
By Aeyela 2015-10-02 10:24:04
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »I prefer your stance on spanking compared to your illogical belief on not restricting access to guns. :P
Spanking's fun, but you usually have to overpay for it.
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-10-02 10:24:30
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The idea that more guns will bring about more peace is completely unfounded. Who's arguing that? I know there are people out there with that notion, but they are not here talking about it, are they?
We cannot have a discussion if you are referring to the viewpoints of people who are not part of the discussion....
Jets argument is that more guns, by following the strict word of the 2A will bring about more 'peace'. Because guns are a human right for defense. I know he's passionate about this topic (lord knows, I'll never forget personal nuclear weapons) but it's a common argument heard here and outside XIAH. Jet is Jet. You aren't going to change his mind, so there's no point in trying to do so. It's time to move on from his viewpoint and talk about something a little more constructive.
What's to discuss here? The result of mass shootings is a complex byproduct of American gun fetishry, guns available in bloat, mental illnesses, hyperpartisan behavior, criminal behavior and on and on.
What's gun control going to do? Make ***worse, pushing guns into a dark undermarket.
What's more guns going to do? Probably wind up in escalating alot of incidents that would have gone to blows.
If someone has a quick answer to gun massacres in the US, please reveal it because the left/right push/pull is just a symptom that no one really has an answer. Quick answer? I don't have one, but we have been analyzing the behaviors of the mass murderers for a while. One such item to note is the notion of publicizing said murders lead to copycat murders. Suicide-by-cop so to say. We can probably deter a good portion (not all, not most, but more than a few) of these murders if we didn't publicize such behavior.
That requires a restructure of the 24 hour news network though...
By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 10:25:19
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The idea that more guns will bring about more peace is completely unfounded. Who's arguing that? I know there are people out there with that notion, but they are not here talking about it, are they?
We cannot have a discussion if you are referring to the viewpoints of people who are not part of the discussion....
Jets argument is that more guns, by following the strict word of the 2A will bring about more 'peace'. Because guns are a human right for defense. I know he's passionate about this topic (lord knows, I'll never forget personal nuclear weapons) but it's a common argument heard here and outside XIAH.
I don't recall necessarily arguing that, but it's possible. I prefer your stance on spanking compared to your illogical belief on not restricting access to guns. :P
Don't agree with that it's illogical, as it most certainly isn't.
But let's not get on that tangent, I don't have any pain killers with me, and I'll most certainly get a headache.
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-10-02 10:25:56
Nobody has said murder is impossible without a gun. What we're saying is it's much easier with a gun. Nobody is disagreeing with you (except Jet) that it's much easier to kill with a gun than it is to kill with something else.
What we are saying is that you should blame the tool for the actions of the user. To solve the problem, you should address the cause, not the action.
Garuda.Chanti
Serveur: Garuda
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11335
By Garuda.Chanti 2015-10-02 10:26:15
Americans do have a constitutional right to own guns.
Americans also have a constitutional right to abortion.
Solution: make it as easy to buy guns as it is to get an abortion in Mississippi.
Full background check. Psychiatric evaluation. 40 hours of gun safety training. 5 day waiting period. All establishments selling firearms must have a gun range on premises so purchasers can demonstrate firearm proficiency (also so they can offer those 40 hours of gun safety training.)
That should do it.
By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 10:28:08
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »I prefer your stance on spanking compared to your illogical belief on not restricting access to guns. :P
Spanking's fun, but you usually have to overpay for it. 
By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 10:28:38
Americans do have a constitutional right to own guns.
Americans also have a constitutional right to abortion.
Solution: make it as easy to buy guns as it is to get an abortion in Mississippi.
Full background check. Psychiatric evaluation. 40 hours of gun safety training. 5 day waiting period. All establishments selling firearms must have a gun range on premises so purchasers can demonstrate firearm proficiency (also so they can offer those 40 hours of gun safety training.)
That should do it. Counter solution: stop restricting both.
By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 10:28:57
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »I would just be happy if we started by outlawing civilians from owning assault rifles. Why?
By Aeyela 2015-10-02 10:29:01
Nobody is disagreeing with you (except Jet) that it's much easier to kill with a gun than it is to kill with something else.
What we are saying is that you should blame the tool for the actions of the user. To solve the problem, you should address the cause, not the action.
Logically, that makes sense. In reality, it falls to pieces. You can not realistically monitor every single American citizen all of the time, and of all the ones that are being monitored you don't know for sure that you have every potential nutter in your net.
So, if you can't prevent these mass shootings because you can't monitor everybody, what do you do then? You go after their number one weapon of choice because, whilst it sounds fine and dandy to say "Go after the user", in reality it just can't work.
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-10-02 10:29:17
Americans do have a constitutional right to own guns.
Americans also have a constitutional right to abortion.
Solution: make it as easy to buy guns as it is to get an abortion in Mississippi.
Full background check. Psychiatric evaluation. 40 hours of gun safety training. 5 day waiting period. All establishments selling firearms must have a gun range on premises so purchasers can demonstrate firearm proficiency (also so they can offer those 40 hours of gun safety training.)
That should do it. Wait, how is that easier than to get an abortion, where all you have to do is go to a clinic and get a procedure done.
Both cost money (they don't hand out guns for free), so you cannot use monetary restraints as an excuse. You don't need a background check, psychiatric evaluation, abortion training, waiting periods, or so on.
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-10-02 10:30:04
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The idea that more guns will bring about more peace is completely unfounded. Who's arguing that? I know there are people out there with that notion, but they are not here talking about it, are they?
We cannot have a discussion if you are referring to the viewpoints of people who are not part of the discussion....
Jets argument is that more guns, by following the strict word of the 2A will bring about more 'peace'. Because guns are a human right for defense. I know he's passionate about this topic (lord knows, I'll never forget personal nuclear weapons) but it's a common argument heard here and outside XIAH. Jet is Jet. You aren't going to change his mind, so there's no point in trying to do so. It's time to move on from his viewpoint and talk about something a little more constructive.
What's to discuss here? The result of mass shootings is a complex byproduct of American gun fetishry, guns available in bloat, mental illnesses, hyperpartisan behavior, criminal behavior and on and on.
What's gun control going to do? Make ***worse, pushing guns into a dark undermarket.
What's more guns going to do? Probably wind up in escalating alot of incidents that would have gone to blows.
If someone has a quick answer to gun massacres in the US, please reveal it because the left/right push/pull is just a symptom that no one really has an answer. Quick answer? I don't have one, but we have been analyzing the behaviors of the mass murderers for a while. One such item to note is the notion of publicizing said murders lead to copycat murders. Suicide-by-cop so to say. We can probably deter a good portion (not all, not most, but more than a few) of these murders if we didn't publicize such behavior.
That requires a restructure of the 24 hour news network though...
Networks aren't going to pass up on money.
I think the polarized state of the nation and the deteriorating discourse in our country is to blame for alot of these shootings. Many of these guys are amped on the doom n gloom and the disrespect we show one another across the left/right spectrum is seeding the grounds for a schism that will become impossible to bridge.
The economic reality of many Americans isn't helping either.
By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 10:31:06
You go after their number one weapon of choice Yeah, no. You realize that there's nothing you can really do to prevent them 100% and get over it.
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-10-02 10:32:06
Nobody is disagreeing with you (except Jet) that it's much easier to kill with a gun than it is to kill with something else.
What we are saying is that you should blame the tool for the actions of the user. To solve the problem, you should address the cause, not the action.
Logically, that makes sense. In reality, it falls to pieces. You can not realistically monitor every single American citizen all of the time, and of all the ones that are being monitored you don't know for sure that you have every potential nutter in your net.
So, if you can't prevent these mass shootings because you can't monitor everybody, what do you do then? You go after their number one weapon of choice because, whilst it sounds fine and dandy to say "Go after the user", in reality it just can't work. Can you prove that a significant portion of these gun murderers were legal owners of said guns prior to their usage? I would say that less than 20% of all gun murders were done by people with legal ownership of said gun and had legal ownership for more than a year. Possibly less than 10%.
By Aeyela 2015-10-02 10:32:08
Yeah, no. You realize that there's nothing you can really do to prevent them 100% and get over it.
Yes, America is very good at 'getting over it'.
By Aeyela 2015-10-02 10:32:58
Can you prove that a significant portion of these gun murderers were legal owners of said guns prior to their usage? I would say that less than 20% of all gun murders were done by people with legal ownership of said gun and had legal ownership for more than a year. Possibly less than 10%.
You can say what you like but until you can prove it those are just numbers you pulled out your arse. Given your obvious pro-gun agenda, one can assume that your estimates are erring lower, also.
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-10-02 10:33:36
I only trust one good guy with a gun:
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-10-02 10:34:31
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The idea that more guns will bring about more peace is completely unfounded. Who's arguing that? I know there are people out there with that notion, but they are not here talking about it, are they?
We cannot have a discussion if you are referring to the viewpoints of people who are not part of the discussion....
Jets argument is that more guns, by following the strict word of the 2A will bring about more 'peace'. Because guns are a human right for defense. I know he's passionate about this topic (lord knows, I'll never forget personal nuclear weapons) but it's a common argument heard here and outside XIAH. Jet is Jet. You aren't going to change his mind, so there's no point in trying to do so. It's time to move on from his viewpoint and talk about something a little more constructive.
What's to discuss here? The result of mass shootings is a complex byproduct of American gun fetishry, guns available in bloat, mental illnesses, hyperpartisan behavior, criminal behavior and on and on.
What's gun control going to do? Make ***worse, pushing guns into a dark undermarket.
What's more guns going to do? Probably wind up in escalating alot of incidents that would have gone to blows.
If someone has a quick answer to gun massacres in the US, please reveal it because the left/right push/pull is just a symptom that no one really has an answer. Quick answer? I don't have one, but we have been analyzing the behaviors of the mass murderers for a while. One such item to note is the notion of publicizing said murders lead to copycat murders. Suicide-by-cop so to say. We can probably deter a good portion (not all, not most, but more than a few) of these murders if we didn't publicize such behavior.
That requires a restructure of the 24 hour news network though...
Networks aren't going to pass up on money.
I think the polarized state of the nation and the deteriorating discourse in our country is to blame for alot of these shootings. Many of these guys are amped on the doom n gloom and the disrespect we show one another across the left/right spectrum is seeding the grounds for a schism that will become impossible to bridge.
The economic reality of many Americans isn't helping either. I don't think that these murders were caused for political reasons.
Religious reasons, possibly, probably. Political, highly unlikely.
Unless you go to a Democrat rally and shoot the people there, it's nearly impossible to target people of a specific political side.
By Jetackuu 2015-10-02 10:34:57
Yeah, no. You realize that there's nothing you can really do to prevent them 100% and get over it.
Yes, America is very good at 'getting over it'.
Actually we have a bad habit of ignoring the severe lack of mental healthcare treatment, severe levels of poverty and it's relationship to crime, and our entire prison system being royally ***.
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