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Random Politics & Religion #00
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Serveur: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2015-07-20 01:32:20
No, I didn't. I said a few hundred people isn't a significant amount of their ranks as to exclude poverty as a factor in their recruiting success. The middle class westerners joining ISIS make up a maximum of 1% of the organization. If 99% of a group was poor, would you say that poverty wasn't a factor in their actions?
if ifs and butts were candy and nuts I would have a warehouse full of both to the ceiling....
dude...you are pulling these numbers straight out of your ***.now it's 99%!?
say a few hundred one more time I dare you!
The FBI says a few hundred, nobody else has a credible number. Several intelligence agencies estimate their total ranks as high as 200K, more likely around 50K. 200 / 50,000 = .4%
So, even if it's several times more than the FBI says, it's still a statistically insignificant amount of the whole.
If you have more credible information, I'm happy to re-evaluate my statements. All I can go on is the information available.
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20130
By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-07-20 01:38:50
We don't know how many there are. Kara said
"IS has anywhere from 30,000-200,000 fighters according to different countries/agencies analysts."
as far as statistical accuracy that's pretty terrible on it's own
then kara said
I'd be damn impressed if most of them had college degrees and came from middle class backgrounds. According to analysists they don't, but the information the general public receives from these various analysts is not complete.
but she didn't back up her "According to analysists they don't" claim
maybe aman is right, maybe jassik is right... who the *** knows!
/lights the pleebo signal
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20130
By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-07-20 01:40:16
If you have more credible information, I'm happy to re-evaluate my statements. All I can go on is the information available.
it's closer to 6,200 westerners scroll up
fbi data was only americans not all westerners
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Serveur: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2015-07-20 01:50:11
If you have more credible information, I'm happy to re-evaluate my statements. All I can go on is the information available.
it's closer to 6,200 westerners scroll up
fbi data was only americans not all westerners
You're still missing the ONLY point I was making: The "middle class" westerners join ISIS for different reasons than the domestic recruits and make up a small portion of the whole. You can't use them as proof that poverty isn't a factor. Even using 6200/30,000 (the absolute most skewed numbers) you're still talking about 20%, which isn't anywhere near "most".
Some affluent people have joined them, the leadership is almost certainly educated, the rest is uncertain, and it's complete *** to use the information available as proof of anything.
Bahamut.Kara
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3544
By Bahamut.Kara 2015-07-20 03:06:45
There's more going on here that needs to be solved that feel-good charity can't fix on its own. And who here suggested feel good charity?
We don't know how many there are. Kara said
"IS has anywhere from 30,000-200,000 fighters according to different countries/agencies analysts."
as far as statistical accuracy that's pretty terrible on it's own
then kara said
I'd be damn impressed if most of them had college degrees and came from middle class backgrounds. According to analysists they don't, but the information the general public receives from these various analysts is not complete.
but she didn't back up her "According to analysists they don't" claim
Did you read the articles I spoilered?
6,250[/b] or so have enough money to connect to social media and travel to syria wouldn't that then validate aman's claim that the "few hundred out of a million" figure was indeed pulled directly out of jassik's ***
A large portion leaving from Europe are teenagers.
By fonewear 2015-07-20 07:22:47
I don't know where your 99% figure is coming from. The highest estimate I've seen for the number of ISIS fighters is around 200k, with most other estimates in the 5-figure range. While some of its fighters are indeed young, uneducated, poor males, it also includes a fair number of ticked off Sunni's who feel disenfranchised as a government minority. There's more going on here that needs to be solved that feel-good charity can't fix on its own.
99% of random statistics are just that random !
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By fonewear 2015-07-20 07:24:17
I'm going to be honest I didn't read much of this even by P and R standards this is a waste of time !
By fonewear 2015-07-20 07:34:26
This is what we should do to ISIS:
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By fonewear 2015-07-20 07:44:50
We are finding out more about our Muslim hero:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/chattanooga-shooting-fbi-recovers-gunmans-disturbing-diary/story?id=32558310
With more than 30 FBI agents due to arrive today in Chattanooga, a diary belonging to the gunman and FBI interviews with his parents paint a picture of a disturbed, suicidal young man using drugs, preparing for bankruptcy and facing an appearance in criminal court, according to a representative of the shooter’ s family.
Four days after the shooting, the FBI has not found any connection to overseas terrorist groups, but Mohammod Abdulazeez's diary says that as far back as 2013, he wrote about having suicidal thoughts and "becoming a martyr" after losing his job due to his drug use, both prescription and non-prescription drugs, the family representative said.
In a downward spiral, Abdulazeez would abuse sleeping pills, opioids, painkillers and marijuana, along with alcohol, the representative said.
Most recently, the 24-year-old was having problems dealing with a 12 hour overnight shift, and had to take sleeping pills, according to the representative. The young man was also thousands of dollars in debt and considering filing for bankruptcy.
Three months before the shooting, Abdulazeez was arrested on April 20 -- a day celebrated annually by marijuana users -- and charged with drunk driving. The arresting officer noted a smell of marijuana in the car.
By fonewear 2015-07-20 07:46:06
So if you work hard and take sleeping pills you too could be a mass shooter !
By fonewear 2015-07-20 07:52:19
I believe we have the shooters address:
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Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20130
By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-07-20 08:49:25
Did you read the articles I spoilered?
I quit, out of embarrassment for you, after the first article agreed with me three times.
I thought if anyone could pull some numbers it was you. two unnamed and and unconfirmed sources? really dude? "mostly young men between the ages of 16 and 25 who are primarily poor, unemployed and lack an education, the two Iraqi senior defense officials told CNN"... You let me down homie.
A large portion leaving from Europe are teenagers.
and!? we aren't debating their age.... >.>
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20130
By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-07-20 09:00:35
You're still missing the ONLY point I was making: The "middle class" westerners join ISIS for different reasons than the domestic recruits and make up a small portion of the whole. You can't use them as proof that poverty isn't a factor. Even using 6200/30,000 (the absolute most skewed numbers) you're still talking about 20%, which isn't anywhere near "most".
Some affluent people have joined them, the leadership is almost certainly educated, the rest is uncertain, and it's complete *** to use the information available as proof of anything.
and that's why I called ***, which was my only point
"20% isn't most"
and oh look..there go the goalpost moving back.../checks watch
right on schedule
20% is > the 1% you claimed earlier.
so you lose and get nothing willy wonka.jpg
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20130
By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-07-20 09:04:02
next topic...water witches... real? what say you?
burn the witch!!!
By Ramyrez 2015-07-20 09:10:47
Well praying for it apparently didn't work, so they're changing religions.
But apparently these farmers didn't learn the lesson of Innsmouth. Sure, it's all rain and crops now, but later...you get to turn into a fishman...
Edit: Related.
YouTube Video Placeholder
VIP
Serveur: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2015-07-20 09:58:25
You're still missing the ONLY point I was making: The "middle class" westerners join ISIS for different reasons than the domestic recruits and make up a small portion of the whole. You can't use them as proof that poverty isn't a factor. Even using 6200/30,000 (the absolute most skewed numbers) you're still talking about 20%, which isn't anywhere near "most".
Some affluent people have joined them, the leadership is almost certainly educated, the rest is uncertain, and it's complete *** to use the information available as proof of anything.
and that's why I called ***, which was my only point
"20% isn't most"
and oh look..there go the goalpost moving back.../checks watch
right on schedule
20% is > the 1% you claimed earlier.
so you lose and get nothing willy wonka.jpg
I used your numbers for argument's sake. I don't believe for a second that 6000 westerners have actually joined ISIS, nor do I believe their ranks are that low.
You called *** on what? I still can't figure out who point you're trying to make.
Siren.Mosin
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
By Siren.Mosin 2015-07-20 10:14:03
you don't necessarily have to be poor to be a disillusioned, angry youth. It just helps.
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20130
By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-07-20 10:18:28
I used your numbers for argument's sake. I don't believe for a second that 6000 westerners have actually joined ISIS, nor do I believe their ranks are that low.
first they aren't my numbers their Vera Jourova's the EU justice commissioner from April 2015 the link you didn't bother to read the first time
second facts don't require your belief in them.
You called *** on what? I still can't figure out who point you're trying to make.
your "few hundred" statement it's wrong and it was pulled directly out of your ***.
You want to believe it's true because you are biased. But it isn't true. and all the crying in the world isn't going to make it come true. So hang it up.
By Ramyrez 2015-07-20 10:21:52
you don't necessarily have to be poor to be a disillusioned, angry youth. It just helps.
Yeah. Look at the Menendezes!
Edit: A thought occurs. Some of you may not know who they are at this point. Oh well. Look it up! Learn something!
By fonewear 2015-07-20 10:23:22
you don't necessarily have to be poor to be a disillusioned, angry youth. It just helps.
It's true look at your average FFXI player !
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Siren.Mosin
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
By Siren.Mosin 2015-07-20 10:24:19
Yeah. Look at the Menendezes!
*** that, those parents had it coming.
I have to quote adam carolla here, but, if one kid decides to shoot you, that could very well be that kid's fault, & not a bad reflection of you as a parent, but if BOTH kids decide it's a good idea, then by god, you did something wrong.
By fonewear 2015-07-20 10:25:34
Not to mention any names but I think one of our players here will do something drastic when they finally pull the plug on XI...
You know who I'm talking about !
Siren.Mosin
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
By Siren.Mosin 2015-07-20 10:27:22
when asked about the mass shooting, the perpetrator only responded with "yes, it's worth it"
By Ramyrez 2015-07-20 10:27:39
Yeah. Look at the Menendezes!
*** that, those parents had it coming.
I have to quote adam carolla here, but, if one kid decides to shoot you, that could very well be that kid's fault, & not a bad reflection of you as a parent, but if BOTH kids decide it's a good idea, then by god, you did something wrong.
Bwahaha.
I like that.
Valefor.Sehachan
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-07-20 10:33:07
Look it up! Learn something! NEVER!!
Not here in P&R!
By fonewear 2015-07-20 10:35:00
By fonewear 2015-07-20 10:38:02
It is kinda funny that KKK and the protests sorta reminds me of P and R debates !
By Ramyrez 2015-07-20 10:50:42
I saw a picture of Facebook of one of the KKK members pissing himself when confronted by a large, angry black man.
I have no idea if it was legit, but it was funny.
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By fonewear 2015-07-20 11:02:05
In Kayne West voice: Bernie Sanders and Martin O Malley don't care about black people.
It is a lot of words I didn't read most of it shocker I know !
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/122329/bernie-sanders-and-martin-omalley-failed-their-blacklivesmatter-test
At the Presidential Town Hall this weekend at Netroots Nation 2015, the largest annual gathering of liberal activists in America, there was a moment of two parallel universes operating simultaneously, signifying the cleavages between racial and economic justice on the progressive left. Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders was moving through his main points about economic inequality and the hijacking of the nation by big money, pointing out statistical analyses on things like student debt and the gains of the one percent. (This came after former Maryland governor Martin O’Malley, the other candidate at the event, had already left the stage). At the same time, on the floor among the crowd, #BlackLivesMatter protesters marched and chanted, “Say her name.” The names of the black women who have died in police custody were never mentioned from the stage.
This was the most uncomfortable political moment in the history of a conference that has had many of them over the years. An immigrant rights protester disrupted Vice President Joe Biden last year; anti-surveillance activists accosted House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi two years ago; antiwar and LGBTQ activists and many others have historically made life difficult for politicians at Netroots, from former President Bill Clinton on down. But more than anything, the clash laid bare a massive divide between a significant movement in American politics and those who would lead the country and theoretically carry their mantle.
Over the years, Netroots Nation itself, a conference originated in 2006 among liberal bloggers and commenters at the website Daily Kos, has seen a transformation, from a gathering of politics nerds with precise information about Congressional races to a diverse group of movement organizers. The conference came to Phoenix to feature the struggles of undocumented immigrants, showing white progressives what brown people have to go through every day.
Movement-based politics helped light the fire for the demonstration at the Presidential town hall, which was specifically designed to confront the powerful and leave them no escape route. “That was my idea was to have them respond in real time,” said Ashley Yeats, a St. Louis-based #BlackLivesMatter organizer who helped plan the protest with the Dream Defenders and Black Alliance for Just Immigration (BAJI). “Because too often we do actions, and people get time to go back and sit for a minute. I was, like, ‘No, let’s have our debate. What would a black debate look like?’”
The planned protest began midway through O’Malley’s remarks, the first of the two candidates to speak. Protesters stormed toward the stage and shouted out the names of Sandra Bland and other black women who have died in police custody, imploring the candidates to address them. Tia Oso, an Arizona-based activist with BAJI, was given a mic and hopped on stage next to O’Malley and town hall moderator Jose Antonio Vargas. In her remarks, she expressed her frustration with structural racism and white supremacy. The other protesters did various call-and-response chants from the floor. “Wait a second, breathe!” Vargas pleaded. “We can’t breathe!” replied the protesters, echoing the last words of Eric Garner, the 43-year-old Staten Island man killed by a police chokehold one year ago Friday.
O’Malley had difficulty with the question of police abuse even before the protest. Vargas pressed O’Malley early in the town hall, calling him the “godfather of mass incarceration.” O’Malley gave a prepared response that included downplaying the protests against him during his presidential announcement—it was only three or four people and most of them were white, O’Malley said—and taking credit for civilian review boards and other reforms from his time as Baltimore mayor. The demonstrators did not agree. “Did you hear him talking about all the things that he did in Baltimore?” Oso asked when I spoke to her after the town hall. “When he said that, one of the girls I was with was, like, ‘Rush the stage.’ I said, ‘OK, wait!’”
O’Malley waited politely amid the disruption, which shut down the town hall for about 15 minutes. When he finally was able to respond, he went back to the few specific policies from his days as Baltimore’s mayor. “He was talking about past actions that he was taking a lot of credit for that actually he did not push for,” Yeats told me afterward. O’Malley closed with the tone-deaf comment, “Black lives matter, white lives matter, all lives matter.” The activists wanting to center the black experience and focus on the state of emergency in their communities abhorred it, booing him loudly.
Sanders did even worse. Instead of expressing solidarity with the protesters, he talked about his pet issue—economics. He wasn’t “in the room,” and didn’t alter his pitch based on what was happening. “What Sanders should have done, when they said ‘Sandra Bland,’ you say ‘Sandra Bland!’” said political analyst and Blue Nation Review contributor Goldie Taylor, claiming that a simple show of empathy would have disarmed the protest. "He would have shut down the shutdown!"
Artist and activist Janna Zinzi, who was present in the crowd listening to Sanders, agreed. “Can you imagine how the conversation and energy in the room could have changed if he just stopped and said, ‘I'm listening?’ That would have given the other white people the message that maybe something legitimate is being communicated and that they should actually listen, too. That would have showed real leadership and basic humanity.”
But Sanders couldn’t get past his mindset: that if you fix economic inequality in America, social justice will naturally follow. Historical experience doesn’t show this; Bland was an educated black woman went to Texas for a job interview and three days later, was found dead in her jail cell. Countries in Europe with high degrees of state spending to reduce inequality continue to have racially motivated problems with immigrant communities. The critique doesn’t hold.
When he didn’t get the response he wanted, Sanders became frustrated. “I spent 50 years of my life fighting for civil rights and dignity,” he said, alluding to his time as an organizer for the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee in the 1960s and his marching with Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Even so, he pivoted away from every criminal justice questions by returning to economics. The protesters were not appeased. “I said when he came out, he’s going to say I marched with your daddy and your mama, that’s what he wants to talk about,” said Oso. “But what are you going to do? You want to be the president right now. I don’t want to hear about what you did!”
What the protesters wanted was a sign that their issues were being heard and enacted into policy. “We’re in Arizona, how would you get to Oakland, California?” Yeats asked me. “You would Mapquest it, right?” Right. “That’s what we need from them is a map that’s going to lead out of the oppression, the systemic oppression,” she continued. “We don’t need to hear, we need it. We know that. A hungry person knows they need food. What is your plan to get out of this?”
Obviously, hearing Sanders’s pitch—mentioning job creation and community health centers and H1-B visa policies—wasn’t enough to feed the activists. “They claim that they represent all of America, but then you get up there and you see when they’re pressured on issues that are specifically black they fumble,” Yeats said.
Dr. Jason Johnson, a Hiram College political science professor, watched the protest from the Netroots Nation crowd. “Martin O’Malley and Bernie Sanders both blew a huge opportunity this afternoon,” he said. “Their inability to talk organically to a completely predictable protest by #BlackLivesMatter is a huge Achilles heel for the Dems.”
In a statement, Netroots Nation Executive Director Raven Brooks stood with the protesters. “Although we wish the candidates had more time to respond to the issues, what happened today is reflective of an urgent moment that America is facing today,” Brooks said. Next year’s conference will take place in St. Louis, close to Ferguson, and local leaders of the #BlackLivesMatter movement will be directly engaged, Brooks added. “We plan to work with activists there just as we did in Phoenix, to amplify issues like racial profiling and police brutality in a major way.”
The reaction of the candidates after the protest was varied and significant. O’Malley spent the entire day sitting with activists, publicly apologizing for his “white/all lives matter” remarks in an interview with This Week in Blackness and generally atoning for his performance. Sanders canceled all his events, including meetings with black and brown activists. At his evening speech before 11,000 in the same convention center, he did obliquely address the issue, using practiced lines he has said in the past but with a little more depth. “If any police officer breaks the law, that officer must be held accountable,” Sanders said. On Sunday, he uttered Bland's name at a rally in Dallas. But the no-shows earlier in the day just exacerbated the problem.
The tragedy is that Sanders and the protesters probably agree on nearly every issue, but they don’t have a language to talk to each other about it. As a result, the anger builds and the communication breaks down. This is fixable, but those who want to lead a progressive movement need to understand that taking the crisis in black communities for granted won’t work with this new generation of organizers. That goes the same for Hillary Clinton, who wasn’t in attendance at Netroots Nation this year. But as the campaign progresses, activists will undoubtedly attempt to make her uncomfortable until they get the answers they seek. As Oso said, “Your agenda needs to be correct, and if it’s not correct, we’re going to continue to have problems.”
By Ramyrez 2015-07-20 11:03:56
In Kayne West voice: Bernie Sanders and Martin O Malley don't care about black people.
What does Kanye West actually sound like?
For all the money he's made as an "entertainer", I couldn't name a Kanye song if you put a gun to my head and I only know him from the idiotic ***that spews from his mouth that hits the headlines because apparently he's important and his faux pauxs are worth reporting?
And I've never heard it via sound byte, just in print.
I don't know. I just know I wish he'd go the *** away.
Edit: read the article. I bet the people asking him to name those people couldn't even name them unless they specifically studied them the day leading up to the rally. ***, I can't even remember the name of the kid shot in Ferguson now. I don't have room in my head for every victim of social/racial injustice in this country the number is...wait for it...
TOO DAMN HIGH.
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