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Random Politics & Religion #00
Cerberus.Laconic
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 235
By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-17 11:41:25
I think you're not giving 13-year-olds enough credit for what they do and don't pick up from today's culture.
In a day and age where you can see a commercial for the 50 Shades of Grey movie during a sporting event (that 13 year olds are definitely watching), then you're talking about something you should discuss with them and be clear, honest, and up front about, otherwise you're laying the groundwork for a lifetime of misconceptions about sex, sexuality, love, and relating to the opposite sex.
You avoided the should be taught in class part. I never said parents should not talk to them about it. I know you sometimes have problems with the whole freedom of choice thing but come on.
Yeah, no. This isn't a "basic freedoms" thing, unless you want to argue that we shouldn't compel parents to send their kids to school at all. Because many hillbillies think "that there book lurnin' never did 'em no good".
But these are basic facts about sex and sexuality, and they belong in school being taught as such by teachers trained to do so.
If parents want to pull kids aside and whisper sweet religious dogmatic nothings into their ear after school, that's their choice.
omg dude. Never once have I mentioned anything about sweet religious dogmatic nothings or hillbillies and book lurnin'.
This has everything to do with basic freedoms. Especially since sending children to school IS NOT required. People like you, that want to teach this instead of basic birth control and such are the reason people want NOTHING taught at all because apparently NO middle ground exists!
Quote: Having conversations in class about legalizing prostitution, bondage, multiple partners, and how well the adult film industry practices safe sex. Are not basic facts to be taught to 13 yr olds. You would have a better argument if it was 17-18 year olds. Even then you would have an uphill battle.
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20130
By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-06-17 12:02:18
...yeah...because we're doing such a great job teaching kids math, science and english...
let's skip how to balance a checkbook or understanding credit card interest and move on to the important issues like the difference between *** and vibrators.
By Ramyrez 2015-06-17 12:08:33
Again, no one is mentioning sex toys here. Sex toys are Altima's red herring.
Also, we're talking about something that can easily be covered in a few sessions of a standard health class. You prudes act like this is something that will drastically rewrite their curriculum.
This has everything to do with basic freedoms. Especially since sending children to school IS NOT required. People like you, that want to teach this instead of basic birth control and such are the reason people want NOTHING taught at all because apparently NO middle ground exists!
Instead of? Trying "along with".
Especially since sending children to school IS NOT required.
Sending your child to public school isn't required. But seeing that they attend school is. Sadly this leaves homeschooling as an option for all kinds of unqualified fruitcakes.
[+]
Bismarck.Leneth
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
By Bismarck.Leneth 2015-06-17 12:38:17
Hellenic Parliament’s Debt Truth Committee: 'Greece should not pay this debt because it is illegal, illegitimate, and odious.' Αθήνα, 17 Ιουνίου 2015
Hellenic Parliament’s Debt Truth Committee Preliminary Findings - Executive Summary of the report
*Θα ακολουθήσει ανάρτηση της ελληνικής έκδοσης της περίληψης των προκαταρκτικών αποτελεσμάτων της Επιτροπής Αλήθειας Δημοσίου Χρέους
In June 2015 Greece stands at a crossroad of choosing between furthering the failed macroeconomic adjustment programmes imposed by the creditors or making a real change to break the chains of debt. Five years since the economic adjustment programmes began, the country remains deeply cemented in an economic, social, democratic and ecological crisis. The black box of debt has remained closed, and until now no authority, Greek or international, has sought to bring to light the truth about how and why Greece was subjected to the Troika regime. The debt, in whose name nothing has been spared, remains the rule through which neoliberal adjustment is imposed, and the deepest and longest recession experienced in Europe during peacetime.
There is an immediate need and social responsibility to address a range of legal, social and economic issues that demand proper consideration. In response, the Hellenic Parliament established the Truth Committee on Public Debt in April 2015, mandating the investigation into the creation and growth of public debt, the way and reasons for which debt was contracted, and the impact that the conditionalities attached to the loans have had on the economy and the population. The Truth Committee has a mandate to raise awareness of issues pertaining to the Greek debt, both domestically and internationally, and to formulate arguments and options concerning the cancellation of the debt.
The research of the Committee presented in this preliminary report sheds light on the fact that the entire adjustment programme, to which Greece has been subjugated, was and remains a politically orientated programme. The technical exercise surrounding macroeconomic variables and debt projections, figures directly relating to people’s lives and livelihoods, has enabled discussions around the debt to remain at a technical level mainly revolving around the argument that the policies imposed on Greece will improve its capacity to pay the debt back. The facts presented in this report challenge this argument.
All the evidence we present in this report shows that Greece not only does not have the ability to pay this debt, but also should not pay this debt first and foremost because the debt emerging from the Troika’s arrangements is a direct infringement on the fundamental human rights of the residents of Greece. Hence, we came to the conclusion that Greece should not pay this debt because it is illegal, illegitimate, and odious.
It has also come to the understanding of the Committee that the unsustainability of the Greek public debt was evident from the outset to the international creditors, the Greek authorities, and the corporate media. Yet, the Greek authorities, together with some other governments in the EU, conspired against the restructuring of public debt in 2010 in order to protect financial institutions. The corporate media hid the truth from the public by depicting a situation in which the bailout was argued to benefit Greece, whilst spinning a narrative intended to portray the population as deservers of their own wrongdoings.
Bailout funds provided in both programmes of 2010 and 2012 have been externally managed through complicated schemes, preventing any fiscal autonomy. The use of the bailout money is strictly dictated by the creditors, and so, it is revealing that less than 10% of these funds have been destined to the government’s current expenditure.
This preliminary report presents a primary mapping out of the key problems and issues associated with the public debt, and notes key legal violations associated with the contracting of the debt; it also traces out the legal foundations, on which unilateral suspension of the debt payments can be based. The findings are presented in nine chapters structured as follows:
Chapter 1, Debt before the Troika, analyses the growth of the Greek public debt since the 1980s. It concludes that the increase in debt was not due to excessive public spending, which in fact remained lower than the public spending of other Eurozone countries, but rather due to the payment of extremely high rates of interest to creditors, excessive and unjustified military spending, loss of tax revenues due to illicit capital outflows, state recapitalization of private banks, and the international imbalances created via the flaws in the design of the Monetary Union itself.
Adopting the euro led to a drastic increase of private debt in Greece to which major European private banks as well as the Greek banks were exposed. A growing banking crisis contributed to the Greek sovereign debt crisis. George Papandreou’s government helped to present the elements of a banking crisis as a sovereign debt crisis in 2009 by emphasizing and boosting the public deficit and debt.
Chapter 2, Evolution of Greek public debt during 2010-2015, concludes that the first loan agreement of 2010, aimed primarily to rescue the Greek and other European private banks, and to allow the banks to reduce their exposure to Greek government bonds.
Chapter 3, Greek public debt by creditor in 2015, presents the contentious nature of Greece’s current debt, delineating the loans’ key characteristics, which are further analysed in Chapter 8.
Chapter 4, Debt System Mechanism in Greece reveals the mechanisms devised by the agreements that were implemented since May 2010. They created a substantial amount of new debt to bilateral creditors and the European Financial Stability Fund (EFSF), whilst generating abusive costs thus deepening the crisis further. The mechanisms disclose how the majority of borrowed funds were transferred directly to financial institutions. Rather than benefitting Greece, they have accelerated the privatization process, through the use of financial instruments.
Chapter 5, Conditionalities against sustainability, presents how the creditors imposed intrusive conditionalities attached to the loan agreements, which led directly to the economic unviability and unsustainability of debt. These conditionalities, on which the creditors still insist, have not only contributed to lower GDP as well as higher public borrowing, hence a higher public debt/GDP making Greece’s debt more unsustainable, but also engineered dramatic changes in the society, and caused a humanitarian crisis. The Greek public debt can be considered as totally unsustainable at present.
Chapter 6, Impact of the “bailout programmes” on human rights, concludes that the measures implemented under the “bailout programmes” have directly affected living conditions of the people and violated human rights, which Greece and its partners are obliged to respect, protect and promote under domestic, regional and international law. The drastic adjustments, imposed on the Greek economy and society as a whole, have brought about a rapid deterioration of living standards, and remain incompatible with social justice, social cohesion, democracy and human rights.
Chapter 7, Legal issues surrounding the MOU and Loan Agreements, argues there has been a breach of human rights obligations on the part of Greece itself and the lenders, that is the Euro Area (Lender) Member States, the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and theInternational Monetary Fund, who imposed these measures on Greece. All these actors failed to *** the human rights violations as an outcome of the policies they obliged Greece to pursue, and also directly violated the Greek constitution by effectively stripping Greece of most of its sovereign rights. The agreements contain abusive clauses, effectively coercing Greece to surrender significant aspects of its sovereignty. This is imprinted in the choice of the English law as governing law for those agreements, which facilitated the circumvention of the Greek Constitution and international human rights obligations. Conflicts with human rights and customary obligations, several indications of contracting parties acting in bad faith, which together with the unconscionable character of the agreements, render these agreements invalid.
Chapter 8, Assessment of the Debts as regards illegtimacy, odiousness, illegality, and unsustainability, provides an assessment of the Greek public debt according to the definitions regarding illegitimate, odious, illegal, and unsustainable debt adopted by the Committee.
Chapter 8 concludes that the Greek public debt as of June 2015 is unsustainable, since Greece is currently unable to service its debt without seriously impairing its capacity to fulfill its basic human rights obligations. Furthermore, for each creditor, the report provides evidence of indicative cases of illegal, illegitimate and odious debts.
Debt to the IMF should be considered illegal since its concession breached the IMF’s own statutes, and its conditions breached the Greek Constitution, international customary law, and treaties to which Greece is a party. It is also illegitimate, since conditions included policy prescriptions that infringed human rights obligations. Finally, it is odious since the IMF knew that the imposed measures were undemocratic, ineffective, and would lead to serious violations of socio-economic rights.
Debts to the ECB should be considered illegal since the ECB over-stepped its mandate by imposing the application of macroeconomic adjustment programs (e.g. labour market deregulation) via its participation in the Troïka. Debts to the ECB are also illegitimate and odious, since the principal raison d’etre of the Securities Market Programme (SMP) was to serve the interests of the financial institutions, allowing the major European and Greek private banks to dispose of their Greek bonds.
The EFSF engages in cash-less loans which should be considered illegal because Article 122(2) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) was violated, and further they breach several socio-economic rights and civil liberties. Moreover, the EFSF Framework Agreement 2010 and the Master Financial Assistance Agreement of 2012 contain several abusive clauses revealing clear misconduct on the part of the lender. The EFSF also acts against democratic principles, rendering these particular debts illegitimate and odious.
The bilateral loans should be considered illegal since they violate the procedure provided by the Greek constitution. The loans involved clear misconduct by the lenders, and had conditions that contravened law or public policy. Both EU law and international law were breached in order to sideline human rights in the design of the macroeconomic programmes. The bilateral loans are furthermore illegitimate, since they were not used for the benefit of the population, but merely enabled the private creditors of Greece to be bailed out. Finally, the bilateral loans are odious since the lender states and the European Commission knew of potential violations, but in 2010 and 2012 avoided to *** the human rights impacts of the macroeconomic adjustment and fiscal consolidation that were the conditions for the loans.
The debt to private creditors should be considered illegal because private banks conducted themselves irresponsibly before the Troika came into being, failing to observe due diligence, while some private creditors such as hedge funds also acted in bad faith. Parts of the debts to private banks and hedge funds are illegitimate for the same reasons that they are illegal; furthermore, Greek banks were illegitimately recapitalized by tax-payers. Debts to private banks and hedge funds are odious, since major private creditors were aware that these debts were not incurred in the best interests of the population but rather for their own benefit.
The report comes to a close with some practical considerations. Chapter 9, Legal foundations for repudiation and suspension of the Greek sovereign debt, presents the options concerning the cancellation of debt, and especially the conditions under which a sovereign state can exercise the right to unilateral act of repudiation or suspension of the payment of debt under international law.
Several legal arguments permit a State to unilaterally repudiate its illegal, odious, and illegitimate debt. In the Greek case, such a unilateral act may be based on the following arguments: the bad faith of the creditors that pushed Greece to violate national law and international obligations related to human rights; preeminence of human rights over agreements such as those signed by previous governments with creditors or the Troika; coercion; unfair terms flagrantly violating Greek sovereignty and violating the Constitution; and finally, the right recognized in international law for a State to take countermeasures against illegal acts by its creditors , which purposefully damage its fiscal sovereignty, oblige it to assume odious, illegal and illegitimate debt, violate economic self-determination and fundamental human rights. As far as unsustainable debt is concerned, every state is legally entitled to invoke necessity in exceptional situations in order to safeguard those essential interests threatened by a grave and imminent peril. In such a situation, the State may be dispensed from the fulfilment of those international obligations that augment the peril, as is the case with outstanding loan contracts. Finally, states have the right to declare themselves unilaterally insolvent where the servicing of their debt is unsustainable, in which case they commit no wrongful act and hence bear no liability.
People’s dignity is worth more than illegal, illegitimate, odious and unsustainable debt
Having concluded a preliminary investigation, the Committee considers that Greece has been and still is the victim of an attack premeditated and organized by the International Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank, and the European Commission. This violent, illegal, and immoral mission aimed exclusively at shifting private debt onto the public sector.
Making this preliminary report available to the Greek authorities and the Greek people, the Committee considers to have fulfilled the first part of its mission as defined in the decision of the President of Parliament of 4 April 2015. The Committee hopes that the report will be a useful tool for those who want to exit the destructive logic of austerity and stand up for what is endangered today: human rights, democracy, peoples’ dignity, and the future of generations to come.
In response to those who impose unjust measures, the Greek people might invoke what Thucydides mentioned about the constitution of the Athenian people: "As for the name, it is called a democracy, for the administration is run with a view to the interests of the many, not of the few” (Pericles’ Funeral Oration, in the speech from Thucydides’ History of the Peloponnesian War). Tsunami warning for America's east coast, a gigantic facepalm shockwave from Europe is on its way.
Cerberus.Laconic
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 235
By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-17 12:58:53
Again, no one is mentioning sex toys here. Sex toys are Altima's red herring.
Also, we're talking about something that can easily be covered in a few sessions of a standard health class. You prudes act like this is something that will drastically rewrite their curriculum.
"This week class we will be talking about bondage with multiple partners ask your parents if you can bring in their handcuffs, whips, and OTHER toys for show and tell."
Sending your child to public school isn't required. But seeing that they attend school is. Sadly this leaves homeschooling as an option for all kinds of unqualified fruitcakes.
So instead of trying to get along and actually teach something that can benefit young teens lets just do the above and force parents to do the above out of protest.
Excellent examples of the problem's with the entire issue Ramy, stop by anytime.
By Ramyrez 2015-06-17 13:05:38
The problem is you have no clue what actually benefits teens, you're just flailing against anything "forced" on you like some kid with ODD not wanting to go to bed just because mom said so.
Because see, this is what you can't manage to grasp, apparently.
Clarifying these things as normal behaviors, and teaching kids how to handle them, does benefit them.
Lakshmi.Flavin
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-06-17 13:08:13
I think his point is that there shouldn't be a protest in the first place. At that age it's probably more unlikely these days that they haven't already been exposed to this kind of stuff already and it's better off that they sit down and received an explanation or discuss these things than to act like they don't exist.
It's like those arguments you hear about from some people that if you talk to kids about being gay or if they have a gay teacher or something it's making them gay! Just because you talk about sex or the things related to it does not make someone a pervert or lead them to do the things discussed.
If parents could talk to their children mroe openly about these things or make their children feel more comfortable about coming to them to ask about the things they are curious about then it probably wouldn't be such a big issue. Some people seem afraid to breach the subject of how babies are made let alone anything else lol...
[+]
Caitsith.Zahrah
Serveur: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
By Caitsith.Zahrah 2015-06-17 13:15:52
Hellenic Parliament’s Debt Truth Committee: 'Greece should not pay this debt because it is illegal, illegitimate, and odious.' Αθήνα, 17 Ιουνίου 2015
Hellenic Parliament’s Debt Truth Committee Preliminary Findings - Executive Summary of the report
*Θα ακολουθήσει ανάρτηση της ελληνικής έκδοσης της περίληψης των προκαταρκτικών αποτελεσμάτων της Επιτροπής Αλήθειας Δημοσίου Χρέους
In June 2015 Greece stands at a crossroad of choosing between furthering the failed macroeconomic adjustment programmes imposed by the creditors or making a real change to break the chains of debt. Five years since the economic adjustment programmes began, the country remains deeply cemented in an economic, social, democratic and ecological crisis. The black box of debt has remained closed, and until now no authority, Greek or international, has sought to bring to light the truth about how and why Greece was subjected to the Troika regime. The debt, in whose name nothing has been spared, remains the rule through which neoliberal adjustment is imposed, and the deepest and longest recession experienced in Europe during peacetime.
There is an immediate need and social responsibility to address a range of legal, social and economic issues that demand proper consideration. In response, the Hellenic Parliament established the Truth Committee on Public Debt in April 2015, mandating the investigation into the creation and growth of public debt, the way and reasons for which debt was contracted, and the impact that the conditionalities attached to the loans have had on the economy and the population. The Truth Committee has a mandate to raise awareness of issues pertaining to the Greek debt, both domestically and internationally, and to formulate arguments and options concerning the cancellation of the debt.
The research of the Committee presented in this preliminary report sheds light on the fact that the entire adjustment programme, to which Greece has been subjugated, was and remains a politically orientated programme. The technical exercise surrounding macroeconomic variables and debt projections, figures directly relating to people’s lives and livelihoods, has enabled discussions around the debt to remain at a technical level mainly revolving around the argument that the policies imposed on Greece will improve its capacity to pay the debt back. The facts presented in this report challenge this argument.
All the evidence we present in this report shows that Greece not only does not have the ability to pay this debt, but also should not pay this debt first and foremost because the debt emerging from the Troika’s arrangements is a direct infringement on the fundamental human rights of the residents of Greece. Hence, we came to the conclusion that Greece should not pay this debt because it is illegal, illegitimate, and odious.
It has also come to the understanding of the Committee that the unsustainability of the Greek public debt was evident from the outset to the international creditors, the Greek authorities, and the corporate media. Yet, the Greek authorities, together with some other governments in the EU, conspired against the restructuring of public debt in 2010 in order to protect financial institutions. The corporate media hid the truth from the public by depicting a situation in which the bailout was argued to benefit Greece, whilst spinning a narrative intended to portray the population as deservers of their own wrongdoings.
Bailout funds provided in both programmes of 2010 and 2012 have been externally managed through complicated schemes, preventing any fiscal autonomy. The use of the bailout money is strictly dictated by the creditors, and so, it is revealing that less than 10% of these funds have been destined to the government’s current expenditure.
This preliminary report presents a primary mapping out of the key problems and issues associated with the public debt, and notes key legal violations associated with the contracting of the debt; it also traces out the legal foundations, on which unilateral suspension of the debt payments can be based. The findings are presented in nine chapters structured as follows:
Chapter 1, Debt before the Troika, analyses the growth of the Greek public debt since the 1980s. It concludes that the increase in debt was not due to excessive public spending, which in fact remained lower than the public spending of other Eurozone countries, but rather due to the payment of extremely high rates of interest to creditors, excessive and unjustified military spending, loss of tax revenues due to illicit capital outflows, state recapitalization of private banks, and the international imbalances created via the flaws in the design of the Monetary Union itself.
Adopting the euro led to a drastic increase of private debt in Greece to which major European private banks as well as the Greek banks were exposed. A growing banking crisis contributed to the Greek sovereign debt crisis. George Papandreou’s government helped to present the elements of a banking crisis as a sovereign debt crisis in 2009 by emphasizing and boosting the public deficit and debt.
Chapter 2, Evolution of Greek public debt during 2010-2015, concludes that the first loan agreement of 2010, aimed primarily to rescue the Greek and other European private banks, and to allow the banks to reduce their exposure to Greek government bonds.
Chapter 3, Greek public debt by creditor in 2015, presents the contentious nature of Greece’s current debt, delineating the loans’ key characteristics, which are further analysed in Chapter 8.
Chapter 4, Debt System Mechanism in Greece reveals the mechanisms devised by the agreements that were implemented since May 2010. They created a substantial amount of new debt to bilateral creditors and the European Financial Stability Fund (EFSF), whilst generating abusive costs thus deepening the crisis further. The mechanisms disclose how the majority of borrowed funds were transferred directly to financial institutions. Rather than benefitting Greece, they have accelerated the privatization process, through the use of financial instruments.
Chapter 5, Conditionalities against sustainability, presents how the creditors imposed intrusive conditionalities attached to the loan agreements, which led directly to the economic unviability and unsustainability of debt. These conditionalities, on which the creditors still insist, have not only contributed to lower GDP as well as higher public borrowing, hence a higher public debt/GDP making Greece’s debt more unsustainable, but also engineered dramatic changes in the society, and caused a humanitarian crisis. The Greek public debt can be considered as totally unsustainable at present.
Chapter 6, Impact of the “bailout programmes” on human rights, concludes that the measures implemented under the “bailout programmes” have directly affected living conditions of the people and violated human rights, which Greece and its partners are obliged to respect, protect and promote under domestic, regional and international law. The drastic adjustments, imposed on the Greek economy and society as a whole, have brought about a rapid deterioration of living standards, and remain incompatible with social justice, social cohesion, democracy and human rights.
Chapter 7, Legal issues surrounding the MOU and Loan Agreements, argues there has been a breach of human rights obligations on the part of Greece itself and the lenders, that is the Euro Area (Lender) Member States, the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and theInternational Monetary Fund, who imposed these measures on Greece. All these actors failed to *** the human rights violations as an outcome of the policies they obliged Greece to pursue, and also directly violated the Greek constitution by effectively stripping Greece of most of its sovereign rights. The agreements contain abusive clauses, effectively coercing Greece to surrender significant aspects of its sovereignty. This is imprinted in the choice of the English law as governing law for those agreements, which facilitated the circumvention of the Greek Constitution and international human rights obligations. Conflicts with human rights and customary obligations, several indications of contracting parties acting in bad faith, which together with the unconscionable character of the agreements, render these agreements invalid.
Chapter 8, Assessment of the Debts as regards illegtimacy, odiousness, illegality, and unsustainability, provides an assessment of the Greek public debt according to the definitions regarding illegitimate, odious, illegal, and unsustainable debt adopted by the Committee.
Chapter 8 concludes that the Greek public debt as of June 2015 is unsustainable, since Greece is currently unable to service its debt without seriously impairing its capacity to fulfill its basic human rights obligations. Furthermore, for each creditor, the report provides evidence of indicative cases of illegal, illegitimate and odious debts.
Debt to the IMF should be considered illegal since its concession breached the IMF’s own statutes, and its conditions breached the Greek Constitution, international customary law, and treaties to which Greece is a party. It is also illegitimate, since conditions included policy prescriptions that infringed human rights obligations. Finally, it is odious since the IMF knew that the imposed measures were undemocratic, ineffective, and would lead to serious violations of socio-economic rights.
Debts to the ECB should be considered illegal since the ECB over-stepped its mandate by imposing the application of macroeconomic adjustment programs (e.g. labour market deregulation) via its participation in the Troïka. Debts to the ECB are also illegitimate and odious, since the principal raison d’etre of the Securities Market Programme (SMP) was to serve the interests of the financial institutions, allowing the major European and Greek private banks to dispose of their Greek bonds.
The EFSF engages in cash-less loans which should be considered illegal because Article 122(2) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) was violated, and further they breach several socio-economic rights and civil liberties. Moreover, the EFSF Framework Agreement 2010 and the Master Financial Assistance Agreement of 2012 contain several abusive clauses revealing clear misconduct on the part of the lender. The EFSF also acts against democratic principles, rendering these particular debts illegitimate and odious.
The bilateral loans should be considered illegal since they violate the procedure provided by the Greek constitution. The loans involved clear misconduct by the lenders, and had conditions that contravened law or public policy. Both EU law and international law were breached in order to sideline human rights in the design of the macroeconomic programmes. The bilateral loans are furthermore illegitimate, since they were not used for the benefit of the population, but merely enabled the private creditors of Greece to be bailed out. Finally, the bilateral loans are odious since the lender states and the European Commission knew of potential violations, but in 2010 and 2012 avoided to *** the human rights impacts of the macroeconomic adjustment and fiscal consolidation that were the conditions for the loans.
The debt to private creditors should be considered illegal because private banks conducted themselves irresponsibly before the Troika came into being, failing to observe due diligence, while some private creditors such as hedge funds also acted in bad faith. Parts of the debts to private banks and hedge funds are illegitimate for the same reasons that they are illegal; furthermore, Greek banks were illegitimately recapitalized by tax-payers. Debts to private banks and hedge funds are odious, since major private creditors were aware that these debts were not incurred in the best interests of the population but rather for their own benefit.
The report comes to a close with some practical considerations. Chapter 9, Legal foundations for repudiation and suspension of the Greek sovereign debt, presents the options concerning the cancellation of debt, and especially the conditions under which a sovereign state can exercise the right to unilateral act of repudiation or suspension of the payment of debt under international law.
Several legal arguments permit a State to unilaterally repudiate its illegal, odious, and illegitimate debt. In the Greek case, such a unilateral act may be based on the following arguments: the bad faith of the creditors that pushed Greece to violate national law and international obligations related to human rights; preeminence of human rights over agreements such as those signed by previous governments with creditors or the Troika; coercion; unfair terms flagrantly violating Greek sovereignty and violating the Constitution; and finally, the right recognized in international law for a State to take countermeasures against illegal acts by its creditors , which purposefully damage its fiscal sovereignty, oblige it to assume odious, illegal and illegitimate debt, violate economic self-determination and fundamental human rights. As far as unsustainable debt is concerned, every state is legally entitled to invoke necessity in exceptional situations in order to safeguard those essential interests threatened by a grave and imminent peril. In such a situation, the State may be dispensed from the fulfilment of those international obligations that augment the peril, as is the case with outstanding loan contracts. Finally, states have the right to declare themselves unilaterally insolvent where the servicing of their debt is unsustainable, in which case they commit no wrongful act and hence bear no liability.
People’s dignity is worth more than illegal, illegitimate, odious and unsustainable debt
Having concluded a preliminary investigation, the Committee considers that Greece has been and still is the victim of an attack premeditated and organized by the International Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank, and the European Commission. This violent, illegal, and immoral mission aimed exclusively at shifting private debt onto the public sector.
Making this preliminary report available to the Greek authorities and the Greek people, the Committee considers to have fulfilled the first part of its mission as defined in the decision of the President of Parliament of 4 April 2015. The Committee hopes that the report will be a useful tool for those who want to exit the destructive logic of austerity and stand up for what is endangered today: human rights, democracy, peoples’ dignity, and the future of generations to come.
In response to those who impose unjust measures, the Greek people might invoke what Thucydides mentioned about the constitution of the Athenian people: "As for the name, it is called a democracy, for the administration is run with a view to the interests of the many, not of the few” (Pericles’ Funeral Oration, in the speech from Thucydides’ History of the Peloponnesian War). Tsunami warning for America's east coast, a gigantic facepalm shockwave from Europe is on its way.
Tired of going rounds on here about this. I'll just leave it at...Ugh! Southern Europe...Typical. Germany should have kept the DM.
Bahamut.Milamber
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-06-17 13:15:52
Again, no one is mentioning sex toys here. Sex toys are Altima's red herring.
Also, we're talking about something that can easily be covered in a few sessions of a standard health class. You prudes act like this is something that will drastically rewrite their curriculum.
"This week class we will be talking about bondage with multiple partners ask your parents if you can bring in their handcuffs, whips, and OTHER toys for show and tell."
Hell, *** it, why not? If it gives an entry point for kids to actually have a discussion about sex and sexuality with their parents, then kudos.
I'd be impressed if you could come up with a reason other than "Eeew". I can say at first glance the idea seems bad, but I can't come up with any other reason than "Eeeew" either. Which really isn't a very good reason at all.
Zo, vey do you veel dat vey?
[+]
Cerberus.Laconic
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 235
By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-17 13:20:08
The problem is you have no clue what actually benefits teens, you're just flailing against anything "forced" on you like some kid with ODD not wanting to go to bed just because mom said so.
Haha, yeah because everything I have been talking about is exactly like a kid not wanting to listen to their parents.
Clarifying these things as normal behaviors, and teaching kids how to handle them, does benefit them.
For clarifying normal behaviors you are sure being quite broad by saying "things" Just to be clear we are talking about Quote: your opinion 13 year olds need to be having conversations in class about legalizing prostitution, bondage, multiple partners, and how well the adult film industry practices safe sex. Just making sure because I have been noticing you like to change the subject once you are shown how wrong your arguments actually are.
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20130
By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-06-17 13:27:09
The problem is you have no clue what actually benefits teens
neither does anyone else....
please show me one example of a well adjusted, properly educated, emotionally un-scarred, American Teenager.
[+]
Bismarck.Leneth
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
By Bismarck.Leneth 2015-06-17 13:31:28
Hellenic Parliament’s Debt Truth Committee: 'Greece should not pay this debt because it is illegal, illegitimate, and odious.' Αθήνα, 17 Ιουνίου 2015
Hellenic Parliament’s Debt Truth Committee Preliminary Findings - Executive Summary of the report
*Θα ακολουθήσει ανάρτηση της ελληνικής έκδοσης της περίληψης των προκαταρκτικών αποτελεσμάτων της Επιτροπής Αλήθειας Δημοσίου Χρέους
In June 2015 Greece stands at a crossroad of choosing between furthering the failed macroeconomic adjustment programmes imposed by the creditors or making a real change to break the chains of debt. Five years since the economic adjustment programmes began, the country remains deeply cemented in an economic, social, democratic and ecological crisis. The black box of debt has remained closed, and until now no authority, Greek or international, has sought to bring to light the truth about how and why Greece was subjected to the Troika regime. The debt, in whose name nothing has been spared, remains the rule through which neoliberal adjustment is imposed, and the deepest and longest recession experienced in Europe during peacetime.
There is an immediate need and social responsibility to address a range of legal, social and economic issues that demand proper consideration. In response, the Hellenic Parliament established the Truth Committee on Public Debt in April 2015, mandating the investigation into the creation and growth of public debt, the way and reasons for which debt was contracted, and the impact that the conditionalities attached to the loans have had on the economy and the population. The Truth Committee has a mandate to raise awareness of issues pertaining to the Greek debt, both domestically and internationally, and to formulate arguments and options concerning the cancellation of the debt.
The research of the Committee presented in this preliminary report sheds light on the fact that the entire adjustment programme, to which Greece has been subjugated, was and remains a politically orientated programme. The technical exercise surrounding macroeconomic variables and debt projections, figures directly relating to people’s lives and livelihoods, has enabled discussions around the debt to remain at a technical level mainly revolving around the argument that the policies imposed on Greece will improve its capacity to pay the debt back. The facts presented in this report challenge this argument.
All the evidence we present in this report shows that Greece not only does not have the ability to pay this debt, but also should not pay this debt first and foremost because the debt emerging from the Troika’s arrangements is a direct infringement on the fundamental human rights of the residents of Greece. Hence, we came to the conclusion that Greece should not pay this debt because it is illegal, illegitimate, and odious.
It has also come to the understanding of the Committee that the unsustainability of the Greek public debt was evident from the outset to the international creditors, the Greek authorities, and the corporate media. Yet, the Greek authorities, together with some other governments in the EU, conspired against the restructuring of public debt in 2010 in order to protect financial institutions. The corporate media hid the truth from the public by depicting a situation in which the bailout was argued to benefit Greece, whilst spinning a narrative intended to portray the population as deservers of their own wrongdoings.
Bailout funds provided in both programmes of 2010 and 2012 have been externally managed through complicated schemes, preventing any fiscal autonomy. The use of the bailout money is strictly dictated by the creditors, and so, it is revealing that less than 10% of these funds have been destined to the government’s current expenditure.
This preliminary report presents a primary mapping out of the key problems and issues associated with the public debt, and notes key legal violations associated with the contracting of the debt; it also traces out the legal foundations, on which unilateral suspension of the debt payments can be based. The findings are presented in nine chapters structured as follows:
Chapter 1, Debt before the Troika, analyses the growth of the Greek public debt since the 1980s. It concludes that the increase in debt was not due to excessive public spending, which in fact remained lower than the public spending of other Eurozone countries, but rather due to the payment of extremely high rates of interest to creditors, excessive and unjustified military spending, loss of tax revenues due to illicit capital outflows, state recapitalization of private banks, and the international imbalances created via the flaws in the design of the Monetary Union itself.
Adopting the euro led to a drastic increase of private debt in Greece to which major European private banks as well as the Greek banks were exposed. A growing banking crisis contributed to the Greek sovereign debt crisis. George Papandreou’s government helped to present the elements of a banking crisis as a sovereign debt crisis in 2009 by emphasizing and boosting the public deficit and debt.
Chapter 2, Evolution of Greek public debt during 2010-2015, concludes that the first loan agreement of 2010, aimed primarily to rescue the Greek and other European private banks, and to allow the banks to reduce their exposure to Greek government bonds.
Chapter 3, Greek public debt by creditor in 2015, presents the contentious nature of Greece’s current debt, delineating the loans’ key characteristics, which are further analysed in Chapter 8.
Chapter 4, Debt System Mechanism in Greece reveals the mechanisms devised by the agreements that were implemented since May 2010. They created a substantial amount of new debt to bilateral creditors and the European Financial Stability Fund (EFSF), whilst generating abusive costs thus deepening the crisis further. The mechanisms disclose how the majority of borrowed funds were transferred directly to financial institutions. Rather than benefitting Greece, they have accelerated the privatization process, through the use of financial instruments.
Chapter 5, Conditionalities against sustainability, presents how the creditors imposed intrusive conditionalities attached to the loan agreements, which led directly to the economic unviability and unsustainability of debt. These conditionalities, on which the creditors still insist, have not only contributed to lower GDP as well as higher public borrowing, hence a higher public debt/GDP making Greece’s debt more unsustainable, but also engineered dramatic changes in the society, and caused a humanitarian crisis. The Greek public debt can be considered as totally unsustainable at present.
Chapter 6, Impact of the “bailout programmes” on human rights, concludes that the measures implemented under the “bailout programmes” have directly affected living conditions of the people and violated human rights, which Greece and its partners are obliged to respect, protect and promote under domestic, regional and international law. The drastic adjustments, imposed on the Greek economy and society as a whole, have brought about a rapid deterioration of living standards, and remain incompatible with social justice, social cohesion, democracy and human rights.
Chapter 7, Legal issues surrounding the MOU and Loan Agreements, argues there has been a breach of human rights obligations on the part of Greece itself and the lenders, that is the Euro Area (Lender) Member States, the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and theInternational Monetary Fund, who imposed these measures on Greece. All these actors failed to *** the human rights violations as an outcome of the policies they obliged Greece to pursue, and also directly violated the Greek constitution by effectively stripping Greece of most of its sovereign rights. The agreements contain abusive clauses, effectively coercing Greece to surrender significant aspects of its sovereignty. This is imprinted in the choice of the English law as governing law for those agreements, which facilitated the circumvention of the Greek Constitution and international human rights obligations. Conflicts with human rights and customary obligations, several indications of contracting parties acting in bad faith, which together with the unconscionable character of the agreements, render these agreements invalid.
Chapter 8, Assessment of the Debts as regards illegtimacy, odiousness, illegality, and unsustainability, provides an assessment of the Greek public debt according to the definitions regarding illegitimate, odious, illegal, and unsustainable debt adopted by the Committee.
Chapter 8 concludes that the Greek public debt as of June 2015 is unsustainable, since Greece is currently unable to service its debt without seriously impairing its capacity to fulfill its basic human rights obligations. Furthermore, for each creditor, the report provides evidence of indicative cases of illegal, illegitimate and odious debts.
Debt to the IMF should be considered illegal since its concession breached the IMF’s own statutes, and its conditions breached the Greek Constitution, international customary law, and treaties to which Greece is a party. It is also illegitimate, since conditions included policy prescriptions that infringed human rights obligations. Finally, it is odious since the IMF knew that the imposed measures were undemocratic, ineffective, and would lead to serious violations of socio-economic rights.
Debts to the ECB should be considered illegal since the ECB over-stepped its mandate by imposing the application of macroeconomic adjustment programs (e.g. labour market deregulation) via its participation in the Troïka. Debts to the ECB are also illegitimate and odious, since the principal raison d’etre of the Securities Market Programme (SMP) was to serve the interests of the financial institutions, allowing the major European and Greek private banks to dispose of their Greek bonds.
The EFSF engages in cash-less loans which should be considered illegal because Article 122(2) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) was violated, and further they breach several socio-economic rights and civil liberties. Moreover, the EFSF Framework Agreement 2010 and the Master Financial Assistance Agreement of 2012 contain several abusive clauses revealing clear misconduct on the part of the lender. The EFSF also acts against democratic principles, rendering these particular debts illegitimate and odious.
The bilateral loans should be considered illegal since they violate the procedure provided by the Greek constitution. The loans involved clear misconduct by the lenders, and had conditions that contravened law or public policy. Both EU law and international law were breached in order to sideline human rights in the design of the macroeconomic programmes. The bilateral loans are furthermore illegitimate, since they were not used for the benefit of the population, but merely enabled the private creditors of Greece to be bailed out. Finally, the bilateral loans are odious since the lender states and the European Commission knew of potential violations, but in 2010 and 2012 avoided to *** the human rights impacts of the macroeconomic adjustment and fiscal consolidation that were the conditions for the loans.
The debt to private creditors should be considered illegal because private banks conducted themselves irresponsibly before the Troika came into being, failing to observe due diligence, while some private creditors such as hedge funds also acted in bad faith. Parts of the debts to private banks and hedge funds are illegitimate for the same reasons that they are illegal; furthermore, Greek banks were illegitimately recapitalized by tax-payers. Debts to private banks and hedge funds are odious, since major private creditors were aware that these debts were not incurred in the best interests of the population but rather for their own benefit.
The report comes to a close with some practical considerations. Chapter 9, Legal foundations for repudiation and suspension of the Greek sovereign debt, presents the options concerning the cancellation of debt, and especially the conditions under which a sovereign state can exercise the right to unilateral act of repudiation or suspension of the payment of debt under international law.
Several legal arguments permit a State to unilaterally repudiate its illegal, odious, and illegitimate debt. In the Greek case, such a unilateral act may be based on the following arguments: the bad faith of the creditors that pushed Greece to violate national law and international obligations related to human rights; preeminence of human rights over agreements such as those signed by previous governments with creditors or the Troika; coercion; unfair terms flagrantly violating Greek sovereignty and violating the Constitution; and finally, the right recognized in international law for a State to take countermeasures against illegal acts by its creditors , which purposefully damage its fiscal sovereignty, oblige it to assume odious, illegal and illegitimate debt, violate economic self-determination and fundamental human rights. As far as unsustainable debt is concerned, every state is legally entitled to invoke necessity in exceptional situations in order to safeguard those essential interests threatened by a grave and imminent peril. In such a situation, the State may be dispensed from the fulfilment of those international obligations that augment the peril, as is the case with outstanding loan contracts. Finally, states have the right to declare themselves unilaterally insolvent where the servicing of their debt is unsustainable, in which case they commit no wrongful act and hence bear no liability.
People’s dignity is worth more than illegal, illegitimate, odious and unsustainable debt
Having concluded a preliminary investigation, the Committee considers that Greece has been and still is the victim of an attack premeditated and organized by the International Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank, and the European Commission. This violent, illegal, and immoral mission aimed exclusively at shifting private debt onto the public sector.
Making this preliminary report available to the Greek authorities and the Greek people, the Committee considers to have fulfilled the first part of its mission as defined in the decision of the President of Parliament of 4 April 2015. The Committee hopes that the report will be a useful tool for those who want to exit the destructive logic of austerity and stand up for what is endangered today: human rights, democracy, peoples’ dignity, and the future of generations to come.
In response to those who impose unjust measures, the Greek people might invoke what Thucydides mentioned about the constitution of the Athenian people: "As for the name, it is called a democracy, for the administration is run with a view to the interests of the many, not of the few” (Pericles’ Funeral Oration, in the speech from Thucydides’ History of the Peloponnesian War). Tsunami warning for America's east coast, a gigantic facepalm shockwave from Europe is on its way.
Tired of going rounds on here about this. I'll just leave it at...Ugh! Southern Europe...Typical. Germany should have kept the DM. The other countries did their share on their homweork, sure it could be more here or there but at least they are paying their own bills. With a Grexit the efforts of Italy, Spain ect. of the last few years would be in vain within a second. Just because they were helping an other country. And greece is blackmailing for solidarity. I just can't understand their view.
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Cerberus.Laconic
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Posts: 235
By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-17 13:31:33
The problem is you have no clue what actually benefits teens
neither does anyone else....
please show me one example of a well adjusted, properly educated, emotionally un-scarred, American Teenager.
I think it's funny the guy that has no children says this.
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-06-17 13:34:55
The problem is you have no clue what actually benefits teens
neither does anyone else....
please show me one example of a well adjusted, properly educated, emotionally un-scarred, American Teenager.
I think it's funny the guy that has no children says this. So? If a person is not a parent does it preclude them from knowing anything about it?
The answer is no, it doesn't.
By Ramyrez 2015-06-17 13:36:51
Haha, yeah because everything I have been talking about is exactly like a kid not wanting to listen to their parents.
Yeah, it kind of is. There are only benefits to in-depth sexual education. You're just on the "eww" and "omg, prostitution, shock value!" level Mil was talking about.
For clarifying normal behaviors you are sure being quite broad by saying "things" Just to be clear we are talking about Quote: your opinion 13 year olds need to be having conversations in class about legalizing prostitution, bondage, multiple partners, and how well the adult film industry practices safe sex. Just making sure because I have been noticing you like to change the subject once you are shown how wrong your arguments actually are.
In broad terms, yes. Let me explain one by one, since you have zero ability to infer or consider further implications of anything we're discussing.
1. Prostitution -- It's a thing. It exists. I will bet copious amounts of money there are 13-year-old boys out there who are listening to music throwing out words like "***", "***", "tramp", etc. Examining what these words actually imply and understanding in a broader sense 1) they're inappropriate to call women and 2) what prostitution actually is and why it is illegal.
2. Bondage -- see aforementioned 50 Shades reference. They're seeing it on television during regularly scheduled family programming. It needs to be discussed, even if you're squeemish about it.
3. Multiple partners -- Yeah, this is ***half of them probably see at home, their parents just think kids are dumb and don't perceive it.
4. Adult film industry -- not just safe sex therein, but the film industry in general, and how much like the movies we watch for regular entertainment, porn represents a fantasy, and that it is not the same as the realities you will encounter.
Cerberus.Laconic
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-17 13:36:59
The problem is you have no clue what actually benefits teens
neither does anyone else....
please show me one example of a well adjusted, properly educated, emotionally un-scarred, American Teenager.
I think it's funny the guy that has no children says this. So? If a person is not a parent does it preclude them from knowing anything about it?
The answer is no, it doesn't.
No, not knowing anything about it. But insinuating that he has more of a clue about kids than someone who actually has kids is arrogant to say the least.
Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-06-17 13:37:58
It's like one of those stupid "if you don't have an Apocalypse you can't understand it!" posts.
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Lakshmi.Flavin
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Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-06-17 13:39:35
The problem is you have no clue what actually benefits teens
neither does anyone else....
please show me one example of a well adjusted, properly educated, emotionally un-scarred, American Teenager.
I think it's funny the guy that has no children says this. So? If a person is not a parent does it preclude them from knowing anything about it?
The answer is no, it doesn't.
No, not knowing anything about it. But insinuating that he has more of a clue about kids than someone who actually has kids is arrogant to say the least. Not really. Also, he really isn't saying he has more of a clue about kids in general as this is a discussion on sexual education which is only part of raising children and quite frankly a pretty open topic in the public forum as it has to do with the spread of STDs, pregnancy and abortion rates and other public health concerns.
Somehow trying to diminish what someone is saying by telling them they don't have kids is more of a cop out as opposed to continuing discussion.
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By Ramyrez 2015-06-17 13:40:17
No, not knowing anything about it. But insinuating that he has more of a clue about kids than someone who actually has kids is arrogant to say the least.
What's arrogant is insemenating a woman and then pretending that makes you an expert on anything. You presume that because I don't have children I have zero training, experience, or education related to children as well...which is just patently false.
But it's okay. Keep insulting me when you've run out of ways to try to skirt the issue.
[+]
Cerberus.Laconic
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-17 13:50:11
Haha, yeah because everything I have been talking about is exactly like a kid not wanting to listen to their parents.
Yeah, it kind of is. There are only benefits to in-depth sexual education. You're just on the "eww" and "omg, prostitution, shock value!" level Mil was talking about.
For clarifying normal behaviors you are sure being quite broad by saying "things" Just to be clear we are talking about Quote: your opinion 13 year olds need to be having conversations in class about legalizing prostitution, bondage, multiple partners, and how well the adult film industry practices safe sex. Just making sure because I have been noticing you like to change the subject once you are shown how wrong your arguments actually are.
In broad terms, yes. Let me explain one by one, since you have zero ability to infer or consider further implications of anything we're discussing.
1. Prostitution -- It's a thing. It exists. I will bet copious amounts of money there are 13-year-old boys out there who are listening to music throwing out words like "***", "***", "tramp", etc. Examining what these words actually imply and understanding in a broader sense 1) they're inappropriate to call women and 2) what prostitution actually is and why it is illegal.
2. Bondage -- see aforementioned 50 Shades reference. They're seeing it on television during regularly scheduled family programming. It needs to be discussed, even if you're squeemish about it.
3. Multiple partners -- Yeah, this is ***half of them probably see at home, their parents just think kids are dumb and don't perceive it.
4. Adult film industry -- not just safe sex therein, but the film industry in general, and how much like the movies we watch for regular entertainment, porn represents a fantasy, and that it is not the same as the realities you will encounter.
Again, teaching the basic birth control methods in class prevents the byproduct "getting pregnant" what this ENTIRE argument is about less teen pregnancy.
It is the parents choice/right to either talk to their children about all the crap you just ranted on about or not.
We DO NOT live in a country where people can force their will onto others despite what people like you think should or should not be taught in school.
That is why the hard right chooses to go with teaching absolutely nothing instead of trying to find a middle ground and people like you just cannot grasp it.
Cerberus.Laconic
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Posts: 235
By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-17 13:51:13
No, not knowing anything about it. But insinuating that he has more of a clue about kids than someone who actually has kids is arrogant to say the least.
What's arrogant is insemenating a woman and then pretending that makes you an expert on anything. You presume that because I don't have children I have zero training, experience, or education related to children as well...which is just patently false.
But it's okay. Keep insulting me when you've run out of ways to try to skirt the issue.
The only issue skirting and insulting around here is coming from you.
Lakshmi.Flavin
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Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-06-17 14:03:56
It is the parents choice/right to either talk to their children about all the crap you just ranted on about or not. I'd think it's more of a choice than a right. I mean if that's how they want to parent but I mean their kids are going to come across it at some point or another. Wouldn't you want your kids to be able to come and talk to you about it or want to do that so you can discuss?
We DO NOT live in a country where people can force their will onto others despite what people like you think should or should not be taught in school. Actually we do kinda... There are a great deal of things we are required to do in one form or another.
To support your cause that we do not though people have unsuccessfuly so far been unable to make abortions illegal and slowly but surely gay marriage has become more and more legal across the nation despite opposition to it.
That is why the hard right chooses to go with teaching absolutely nothing instead of trying to find a middle ground and people like you just cannot grasp it. Because they can't accept reality or that they'd rather put their fingers in their ears instead of working towards a solution instead of just everyone agreeing to do what they want how they want it done?
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Bahamut.Milamber
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Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-06-17 14:10:53
The problem is you have no clue what actually benefits teens
neither does anyone else....
please show me one example of a well adjusted, properly educated, emotionally un-scarred, American Teenager.
Some years later, anyway.
By Ramyrez 2015-06-17 14:11:42
Again, teaching the basic birth control methods in class prevents the byproduct "getting pregnant" what this ENTIRE argument is about less teen pregnancy.
"Don't care if kids are well adjusted or have healthy attitudes about sex, just make sure they don't loose any babies from their loins to drag me down."
Got it.
By Ramyrez 2015-06-17 14:13:01
The problem is you have no clue what actually benefits teens
neither does anyone else....
please show me one example of a well adjusted, properly educated, emotionally un-scarred, American Teenager.
Some years later, anwyway. The only issue skirting and insulting around here is coming from you.
It's cute the way you keep saying I change topics or skirt issues when really all I do is open them up to their full real world implications.
Pregnancy, sex, sexuality, and related behaviors are all linked. Deal with it.
Cerberus.Laconic
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 235
By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-17 14:16:07
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
It is the parents choice/right to either talk to their children about all the crap you just ranted on about or not.
I'd think it's more of a choice than a right. I mean if that's how they want to parent but I mean their kids are going to come across it at some point or another. Wouldn't you want your kids to be able to come and talk to you about it or want to do that so you can discuss? Me personal, yes. However, I would never tell someone how to raise their child, and I expect the same in return.
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
We DO NOT live in a country where people can force their will onto others despite what people like you think should or should not be taught in school.
Actually we do kinda... There are a great deal of things we are required to do in one form or another.
To support your cause that we do not though people have unsuccessfuly so far been unable to make abortions illegal and slowly but surely gay marriage has become more and more legal across the nation despite opposition to it.
Last I checked we have never put gay people in jail or pay fines for being gay. If Ramy had his way parents would go to jail or pay a fine for pulling children out of school "truancy"
Last I checked you are going to jail for murder if you abort a baby in the last trimester that had nothing wrong with it and didn't put the mother in danger? This is a question because I am not totally sure.
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
That is why the hard right chooses to go with teaching absolutely nothing instead of trying to find a middle ground and people like you just cannot grasp it.
Because they can't accept reality or that they'd rather put their fingers in their ears instead of working towards a solution instead of just everyone agreeing to do what they want how they want it done?
Is compromise really so hard for you people to understand or is it hardline right or hardline left and nothing in between. Oh no we can't settle for something in between because neither side would be right!
Bahamut.Milamber
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-06-17 14:17:41
Haha, yeah because everything I have been talking about is exactly like a kid not wanting to listen to their parents.
Yeah, it kind of is. There are only benefits to in-depth sexual education. You're just on the "eww" and "omg, prostitution, shock value!" level Mil was talking about.
For clarifying normal behaviors you are sure being quite broad by saying "things" Just to be clear we are talking about Quote: your opinion 13 year olds need to be having conversations in class about legalizing prostitution, bondage, multiple partners, and how well the adult film industry practices safe sex. Just making sure because I have been noticing you like to change the subject once you are shown how wrong your arguments actually are.
In broad terms, yes. Let me explain one by one, since you have zero ability to infer or consider further implications of anything we're discussing.
1. Prostitution -- It's a thing. It exists. I will bet copious amounts of money there are 13-year-old boys out there who are listening to music throwing out words like "***", "***", "tramp", etc. Examining what these words actually imply and understanding in a broader sense 1) they're inappropriate to call women and 2) what prostitution actually is and why it is illegal.
2. Bondage -- see aforementioned 50 Shades reference. They're seeing it on television during regularly scheduled family programming. It needs to be discussed, even if you're squeemish about it.
3. Multiple partners -- Yeah, this is ***half of them probably see at home, their parents just think kids are dumb and don't perceive it.
4. Adult film industry -- not just safe sex therein, but the film industry in general, and how much like the movies we watch for regular entertainment, porn represents a fantasy, and that it is not the same as the realities you will encounter.
Again, teaching the basic birth control methods in class prevents the byproduct "getting pregnant" what this ENTIRE argument is about less teen pregnancy.
It is the parents choice/right to either talk to their children about all the crap you just ranted on about or not.
We DO NOT live in a country where people can force their will onto others despite what people like you think should or should not be taught in school.
That is why the hard right chooses to go with teaching absolutely nothing instead of trying to find a middle ground and people like you just cannot grasp it. Wait, what?
Teaching abstinence isn't teaching absolutely nothing. It's teaching "don't have sex" because "reasons". Which is even less useful then teaching "don't breathe" because "reasons".
And keep in mind, it isn't just teaching "Don't have sex". It's teaching "Don't have premarital sex". Why not? You can get just as pregnant after marriage as before. You can get just as many STDs after marriage as before. It's dumb, artificial delimitation which do no more than reduce the credibility of those imparting the lesson (at best).
By volkom 2015-06-17 14:18:20
I have a question~
Has there been more or less teen pregnancy with more sex ed classes?
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6052
By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2015-06-17 14:19:46
there's really 0 reason to go into sexual interests past what's necessary to educate as far as STD/pregnancy concerns
a 'comprehensive' education should cover the biological parts of procreation, vaginal/oral/anal sex(obviously including same-gender) with information regarding the dangers associated with each, and explain all the horrible parts of pregnancy because for real that ***is scary even without abstinence
the only reason to teach transgender/fetish things is personal bias, they have no real impact on any of the negatives to sex and there's plenty of material for people to experiment with on their own as long as they know the important stuff
[+]
Cerberus.Laconic
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 235
By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-17 14:22:05
Wait, what?
Teaching abstinence isn't teaching absolutely nothing. It's teaching "don't have sex" because "reasons". Which is even less useful then teaching "don't breathe" because "reasons".
And keep in mind, it isn't just teaching "Don't have sex". It's teaching "Don't have premarital sex". Why not? You can get just as pregnant after marriage as before. You can get just as many STDs after marriage as before. It's dumb, artificial delimitation which do no more than reduce the credibility of those imparting the lesson (at best).
Where in any of my posts have I used the word abstinence, please show me.
It's cute the way you keep saying I change topics or skirt issues when really all I do is open them up to their full real world implications.
Not as cute as this.
Again, teaching the basic birth control methods in class prevents the byproduct "getting pregnant" what this ENTIRE argument is about less teen pregnancy.
"Don't care if kids are well adjusted or have healthy attitudes about sex, just make sure they don't loose any babies from their loins to drag me down."
Got it.
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