Random Politics & Religion #00

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Random Politics & Religion #00
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 Cerberus.Laconic
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-17 11:41:25
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Ramyrez said: »
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
Ramyrez said: »
I think you're not giving 13-year-olds enough credit for what they do and don't pick up from today's culture.

In a day and age where you can see a commercial for the 50 Shades of Grey movie during a sporting event (that 13 year olds are definitely watching), then you're talking about something you should discuss with them and be clear, honest, and up front about, otherwise you're laying the groundwork for a lifetime of misconceptions about sex, sexuality, love, and relating to the opposite sex.

You avoided the should be taught in class part. I never said parents should not talk to them about it. I know you sometimes have problems with the whole freedom of choice thing but come on.

Yeah, no. This isn't a "basic freedoms" thing, unless you want to argue that we shouldn't compel parents to send their kids to school at all. Because many hillbillies think "that there book lurnin' never did 'em no good".

But these are basic facts about sex and sexuality, and they belong in school being taught as such by teachers trained to do so.

If parents want to pull kids aside and whisper sweet religious dogmatic nothings into their ear after school, that's their choice.

omg dude. Never once have I mentioned anything about sweet religious dogmatic nothings or hillbillies and book lurnin'.

This has everything to do with basic freedoms. Especially since sending children to school IS NOT required. People like you, that want to teach this instead of basic birth control and such are the reason people want NOTHING taught at all because apparently NO middle ground exists!

Quote:
Having conversations in class about legalizing prostitution, bondage, multiple partners, and how well the adult film industry practices safe sex.
Are not basic facts to be taught to 13 yr olds. You would have a better argument if it was 17-18 year olds. Even then you would have an uphill battle.
 Shiva.Nikolce
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-06-17 12:02:18
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...yeah...because we're doing such a great job teaching kids math, science and english...

let's skip how to balance a checkbook or understanding credit card interest and move on to the important issues like the difference between *** and vibrators.

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By Ramyrez 2015-06-17 12:08:33
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Again, no one is mentioning sex toys here. Sex toys are Altima's red herring.

Also, we're talking about something that can easily be covered in a few sessions of a standard health class. You prudes act like this is something that will drastically rewrite their curriculum.

Cerberus.Laconic said: »
This has everything to do with basic freedoms. Especially since sending children to school IS NOT required. People like you, that want to teach this instead of basic birth control and such are the reason people want NOTHING taught at all because apparently NO middle ground exists!

Instead of? Trying "along with".

Cerberus.Laconic said: »
Especially since sending children to school IS NOT required.

Sending your child to public school isn't required. But seeing that they attend school is. Sadly this leaves homeschooling as an option for all kinds of unqualified fruitcakes.
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 Bismarck.Leneth
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By Bismarck.Leneth 2015-06-17 12:38:17
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Hellenic Parliament’s Debt Truth Committee: 'Greece should not pay this debt because it is illegal, illegitimate, and odious.'
Tsunami warning for America's east coast, a gigantic facepalm shockwave from Europe is on its way.
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 Cerberus.Laconic
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-17 12:58:53
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Ramyrez said: »
Again, no one is mentioning sex toys here. Sex toys are Altima's red herring.

Also, we're talking about something that can easily be covered in a few sessions of a standard health class. You prudes act like this is something that will drastically rewrite their curriculum.

"This week class we will be talking about bondage with multiple partners ask your parents if you can bring in their handcuffs, whips, and OTHER toys for show and tell."

Ramyrez said: »
Sending your child to public school isn't required. But seeing that they attend school is. Sadly this leaves homeschooling as an option for all kinds of unqualified fruitcakes.

So instead of trying to get along and actually teach something that can benefit young teens lets just do the above and force parents to do the above out of protest.

Excellent examples of the problem's with the entire issue Ramy, stop by anytime.
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By Ramyrez 2015-06-17 13:05:38
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The problem is you have no clue what actually benefits teens, you're just flailing against anything "forced" on you like some kid with ODD not wanting to go to bed just because mom said so.

Because see, this is what you can't manage to grasp, apparently.

Clarifying these things as normal behaviors, and teaching kids how to handle them, does benefit them.
 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-06-17 13:08:13
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I think his point is that there shouldn't be a protest in the first place. At that age it's probably more unlikely these days that they haven't already been exposed to this kind of stuff already and it's better off that they sit down and received an explanation or discuss these things than to act like they don't exist.

It's like those arguments you hear about from some people that if you talk to kids about being gay or if they have a gay teacher or something it's making them gay! Just because you talk about sex or the things related to it does not make someone a pervert or lead them to do the things discussed.

If parents could talk to their children mroe openly about these things or make their children feel more comfortable about coming to them to ask about the things they are curious about then it probably wouldn't be such a big issue. Some people seem afraid to breach the subject of how babies are made let alone anything else lol...
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 Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2015-06-17 13:15:52
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Bismarck.Leneth said: »
Hellenic Parliament’s Debt Truth Committee: 'Greece should not pay this debt because it is illegal, illegitimate, and odious.'
Tsunami warning for America's east coast, a gigantic facepalm shockwave from Europe is on its way.

Tired of going rounds on here about this. I'll just leave it at...Ugh! Southern Europe...Typical. Germany should have kept the DM.
 Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-06-17 13:15:52
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Cerberus.Laconic said: »
Ramyrez said: »
Again, no one is mentioning sex toys here. Sex toys are Altima's red herring.

Also, we're talking about something that can easily be covered in a few sessions of a standard health class. You prudes act like this is something that will drastically rewrite their curriculum.

"This week class we will be talking about bondage with multiple partners ask your parents if you can bring in their handcuffs, whips, and OTHER toys for show and tell."
Hell, *** it, why not? If it gives an entry point for kids to actually have a discussion about sex and sexuality with their parents, then kudos.

I'd be impressed if you could come up with a reason other than "Eeew". I can say at first glance the idea seems bad, but I can't come up with any other reason than "Eeeew" either. Which really isn't a very good reason at all.

Zo, vey do you veel dat vey?
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 Cerberus.Laconic
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-17 13:20:08
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Ramyrez said: »
The problem is you have no clue what actually benefits teens, you're just flailing against anything "forced" on you like some kid with ODD not wanting to go to bed just because mom said so.

Haha, yeah because everything I have been talking about is exactly like a kid not wanting to listen to their parents.


Ramyrez said: »
Clarifying these things as normal behaviors, and teaching kids how to handle them, does benefit them.

For clarifying normal behaviors you are sure being quite broad by saying "things" Just to be clear we are talking about
Quote:
your opinion 13 year olds need to be having conversations in class about legalizing prostitution, bondage, multiple partners, and how well the adult film industry practices safe sex.
Just making sure because I have been noticing you like to change the subject once you are shown how wrong your arguments actually are.
 Shiva.Nikolce
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-06-17 13:27:09
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Ramyrez said: »
The problem is you have no clue what actually benefits teens

neither does anyone else....

please show me one example of a well adjusted, properly educated, emotionally un-scarred, American Teenager.
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 Bismarck.Leneth
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By Bismarck.Leneth 2015-06-17 13:31:28
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Caitsith.Zahrah said: »
Bismarck.Leneth said: »
Hellenic Parliament’s Debt Truth Committee: 'Greece should not pay this debt because it is illegal, illegitimate, and odious.'
Tsunami warning for America's east coast, a gigantic facepalm shockwave from Europe is on its way.

Tired of going rounds on here about this. I'll just leave it at...Ugh! Southern Europe...Typical. Germany should have kept the DM.
The other countries did their share on their homweork, sure it could be more here or there but at least they are paying their own bills. With a Grexit the efforts of Italy, Spain ect. of the last few years would be in vain within a second. Just because they were helping an other country. And greece is blackmailing for solidarity. I just can't understand their view.
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 Cerberus.Laconic
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-17 13:31:33
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Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Ramyrez said: »
The problem is you have no clue what actually benefits teens

neither does anyone else....

please show me one example of a well adjusted, properly educated, emotionally un-scarred, American Teenager.

I think it's funny the guy that has no children says this.
 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-06-17 13:34:55
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Cerberus.Laconic said: »
Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Ramyrez said: »
The problem is you have no clue what actually benefits teens

neither does anyone else....

please show me one example of a well adjusted, properly educated, emotionally un-scarred, American Teenager.

I think it's funny the guy that has no children says this.
So? If a person is not a parent does it preclude them from knowing anything about it?

The answer is no, it doesn't.
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By Ramyrez 2015-06-17 13:36:51
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Cerberus.Laconic said: »
Haha, yeah because everything I have been talking about is exactly like a kid not wanting to listen to their parents.

Yeah, it kind of is. There are only benefits to in-depth sexual education. You're just on the "eww" and "omg, prostitution, shock value!" level Mil was talking about.

Cerberus.Laconic said: »
For clarifying normal behaviors you are sure being quite broad by saying "things" Just to be clear we are talking about
Quote:
your opinion 13 year olds need to be having conversations in class about legalizing prostitution, bondage, multiple partners, and how well the adult film industry practices safe sex.
Just making sure because I have been noticing you like to change the subject once you are shown how wrong your arguments actually are.

In broad terms, yes. Let me explain one by one, since you have zero ability to infer or consider further implications of anything we're discussing.

1. Prostitution -- It's a thing. It exists. I will bet copious amounts of money there are 13-year-old boys out there who are listening to music throwing out words like "***", "***", "tramp", etc. Examining what these words actually imply and understanding in a broader sense 1) they're inappropriate to call women and 2) what prostitution actually is and why it is illegal.

2. Bondage -- see aforementioned 50 Shades reference. They're seeing it on television during regularly scheduled family programming. It needs to be discussed, even if you're squeemish about it.

3. Multiple partners -- Yeah, this is ***half of them probably see at home, their parents just think kids are dumb and don't perceive it.

4. Adult film industry -- not just safe sex therein, but the film industry in general, and how much like the movies we watch for regular entertainment, porn represents a fantasy, and that it is not the same as the realities you will encounter.
 Cerberus.Laconic
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-17 13:36:59
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Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Ramyrez said: »
The problem is you have no clue what actually benefits teens

neither does anyone else....

please show me one example of a well adjusted, properly educated, emotionally un-scarred, American Teenager.

I think it's funny the guy that has no children says this.
So? If a person is not a parent does it preclude them from knowing anything about it?

The answer is no, it doesn't.

No, not knowing anything about it. But insinuating that he has more of a clue about kids than someone who actually has kids is arrogant to say the least.
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-06-17 13:37:58
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It's like one of those stupid "if you don't have an Apocalypse you can't understand it!" posts.
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 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-06-17 13:39:35
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Cerberus.Laconic said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Ramyrez said: »
The problem is you have no clue what actually benefits teens

neither does anyone else....

please show me one example of a well adjusted, properly educated, emotionally un-scarred, American Teenager.

I think it's funny the guy that has no children says this.
So? If a person is not a parent does it preclude them from knowing anything about it?

The answer is no, it doesn't.

No, not knowing anything about it. But insinuating that he has more of a clue about kids than someone who actually has kids is arrogant to say the least.
Not really. Also, he really isn't saying he has more of a clue about kids in general as this is a discussion on sexual education which is only part of raising children and quite frankly a pretty open topic in the public forum as it has to do with the spread of STDs, pregnancy and abortion rates and other public health concerns.

Somehow trying to diminish what someone is saying by telling them they don't have kids is more of a cop out as opposed to continuing discussion.
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By Ramyrez 2015-06-17 13:40:17
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Cerberus.Laconic said: »
No, not knowing anything about it. But insinuating that he has more of a clue about kids than someone who actually has kids is arrogant to say the least.

What's arrogant is insemenating a woman and then pretending that makes you an expert on anything. You presume that because I don't have children I have zero training, experience, or education related to children as well...which is just patently false.

But it's okay. Keep insulting me when you've run out of ways to try to skirt the issue.
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 Cerberus.Laconic
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-17 13:50:11
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Ramyrez said: »
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
Haha, yeah because everything I have been talking about is exactly like a kid not wanting to listen to their parents.

Yeah, it kind of is. There are only benefits to in-depth sexual education. You're just on the "eww" and "omg, prostitution, shock value!" level Mil was talking about.

Cerberus.Laconic said: »
For clarifying normal behaviors you are sure being quite broad by saying "things" Just to be clear we are talking about
Quote:
your opinion 13 year olds need to be having conversations in class about legalizing prostitution, bondage, multiple partners, and how well the adult film industry practices safe sex.
Just making sure because I have been noticing you like to change the subject once you are shown how wrong your arguments actually are.

In broad terms, yes. Let me explain one by one, since you have zero ability to infer or consider further implications of anything we're discussing.

1. Prostitution -- It's a thing. It exists. I will bet copious amounts of money there are 13-year-old boys out there who are listening to music throwing out words like "***", "***", "tramp", etc. Examining what these words actually imply and understanding in a broader sense 1) they're inappropriate to call women and 2) what prostitution actually is and why it is illegal.

2. Bondage -- see aforementioned 50 Shades reference. They're seeing it on television during regularly scheduled family programming. It needs to be discussed, even if you're squeemish about it.

3. Multiple partners -- Yeah, this is ***half of them probably see at home, their parents just think kids are dumb and don't perceive it.

4. Adult film industry -- not just safe sex therein, but the film industry in general, and how much like the movies we watch for regular entertainment, porn represents a fantasy, and that it is not the same as the realities you will encounter.

Again, teaching the basic birth control methods in class prevents the byproduct "getting pregnant" what this ENTIRE argument is about less teen pregnancy.

It is the parents choice/right to either talk to their children about all the crap you just ranted on about or not.

We DO NOT live in a country where people can force their will onto others despite what people like you think should or should not be taught in school.

That is why the hard right chooses to go with teaching absolutely nothing instead of trying to find a middle ground and people like you just cannot grasp it.
 Cerberus.Laconic
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-17 13:51:13
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Ramyrez said: »
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
No, not knowing anything about it. But insinuating that he has more of a clue about kids than someone who actually has kids is arrogant to say the least.

What's arrogant is insemenating a woman and then pretending that makes you an expert on anything. You presume that because I don't have children I have zero training, experience, or education related to children as well...which is just patently false.

But it's okay. Keep insulting me when you've run out of ways to try to skirt the issue.

The only issue skirting and insulting around here is coming from you.
 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-06-17 14:03:56
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Cerberus.Laconic said: »
It is the parents choice/right to either talk to their children about all the crap you just ranted on about or not.
I'd think it's more of a choice than a right. I mean if that's how they want to parent but I mean their kids are going to come across it at some point or another. Wouldn't you want your kids to be able to come and talk to you about it or want to do that so you can discuss?

Cerberus.Laconic said: »
We DO NOT live in a country where people can force their will onto others despite what people like you think should or should not be taught in school.
Actually we do kinda... There are a great deal of things we are required to do in one form or another.

To support your cause that we do not though people have unsuccessfuly so far been unable to make abortions illegal and slowly but surely gay marriage has become more and more legal across the nation despite opposition to it.

Cerberus.Laconic said: »
That is why the hard right chooses to go with teaching absolutely nothing instead of trying to find a middle ground and people like you just cannot grasp it.
Because they can't accept reality or that they'd rather put their fingers in their ears instead of working towards a solution instead of just everyone agreeing to do what they want how they want it done?
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 Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-06-17 14:10:53
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Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Ramyrez said: »
The problem is you have no clue what actually benefits teens

neither does anyone else....

please show me one example of a well adjusted, properly educated, emotionally un-scarred, American Teenager.



Some years later, anyway.
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By Ramyrez 2015-06-17 14:11:42
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Cerberus.Laconic said: »
Again, teaching the basic birth control methods in class prevents the byproduct "getting pregnant" what this ENTIRE argument is about less teen pregnancy.

"Don't care if kids are well adjusted or have healthy attitudes about sex, just make sure they don't loose any babies from their loins to drag me down."

Got it.
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By Ramyrez 2015-06-17 14:13:01
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Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Ramyrez said: »
The problem is you have no clue what actually benefits teens

neither does anyone else....

please show me one example of a well adjusted, properly educated, emotionally un-scarred, American Teenager.



Some years later, anwyway.
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
The only issue skirting and insulting around here is coming from you.

It's cute the way you keep saying I change topics or skirt issues when really all I do is open them up to their full real world implications.

Pregnancy, sex, sexuality, and related behaviors are all linked. Deal with it.
 Cerberus.Laconic
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-17 14:16:07
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Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
It is the parents choice/right to either talk to their children about all the crap you just ranted on about or not.
I'd think it's more of a choice than a right. I mean if that's how they want to parent but I mean their kids are going to come across it at some point or another. Wouldn't you want your kids to be able to come and talk to you about it or want to do that so you can discuss?
Me personal, yes. However, I would never tell someone how to raise their child, and I expect the same in return.

Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
We DO NOT live in a country where people can force their will onto others despite what people like you think should or should not be taught in school.
Actually we do kinda... There are a great deal of things we are required to do in one form or another.

To support your cause that we do not though people have unsuccessfuly so far been unable to make abortions illegal and slowly but surely gay marriage has become more and more legal across the nation despite opposition to it.

Last I checked we have never put gay people in jail or pay fines for being gay. If Ramy had his way parents would go to jail or pay a fine for pulling children out of school "truancy"

Last I checked you are going to jail for murder if you abort a baby in the last trimester that had nothing wrong with it and didn't put the mother in danger? This is a question because I am not totally sure.

Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
That is why the hard right chooses to go with teaching absolutely nothing instead of trying to find a middle ground and people like you just cannot grasp it.
Because they can't accept reality or that they'd rather put their fingers in their ears instead of working towards a solution instead of just everyone agreeing to do what they want how they want it done?

Is compromise really so hard for you people to understand or is it hardline right or hardline left and nothing in between. Oh no we can't settle for something in between because neither side would be right!
 Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-06-17 14:17:41
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Cerberus.Laconic said: »
Ramyrez said: »
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
Haha, yeah because everything I have been talking about is exactly like a kid not wanting to listen to their parents.

Yeah, it kind of is. There are only benefits to in-depth sexual education. You're just on the "eww" and "omg, prostitution, shock value!" level Mil was talking about.

Cerberus.Laconic said: »
For clarifying normal behaviors you are sure being quite broad by saying "things" Just to be clear we are talking about
Quote:
your opinion 13 year olds need to be having conversations in class about legalizing prostitution, bondage, multiple partners, and how well the adult film industry practices safe sex.
Just making sure because I have been noticing you like to change the subject once you are shown how wrong your arguments actually are.

In broad terms, yes. Let me explain one by one, since you have zero ability to infer or consider further implications of anything we're discussing.

1. Prostitution -- It's a thing. It exists. I will bet copious amounts of money there are 13-year-old boys out there who are listening to music throwing out words like "***", "***", "tramp", etc. Examining what these words actually imply and understanding in a broader sense 1) they're inappropriate to call women and 2) what prostitution actually is and why it is illegal.

2. Bondage -- see aforementioned 50 Shades reference. They're seeing it on television during regularly scheduled family programming. It needs to be discussed, even if you're squeemish about it.

3. Multiple partners -- Yeah, this is ***half of them probably see at home, their parents just think kids are dumb and don't perceive it.

4. Adult film industry -- not just safe sex therein, but the film industry in general, and how much like the movies we watch for regular entertainment, porn represents a fantasy, and that it is not the same as the realities you will encounter.

Again, teaching the basic birth control methods in class prevents the byproduct "getting pregnant" what this ENTIRE argument is about less teen pregnancy.

It is the parents choice/right to either talk to their children about all the crap you just ranted on about or not.

We DO NOT live in a country where people can force their will onto others despite what people like you think should or should not be taught in school.

That is why the hard right chooses to go with teaching absolutely nothing instead of trying to find a middle ground and people like you just cannot grasp it.
Wait, what?
Teaching abstinence isn't teaching absolutely nothing. It's teaching "don't have sex" because "reasons". Which is even less useful then teaching "don't breathe" because "reasons".


And keep in mind, it isn't just teaching "Don't have sex". It's teaching "Don't have premarital sex". Why not? You can get just as pregnant after marriage as before. You can get just as many STDs after marriage as before. It's dumb, artificial delimitation which do no more than reduce the credibility of those imparting the lesson (at best).
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By volkom 2015-06-17 14:18:20
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I have a question~

Has there been more or less teen pregnancy with more sex ed classes?
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2015-06-17 14:19:46
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there's really 0 reason to go into sexual interests past what's necessary to educate as far as STD/pregnancy concerns

a 'comprehensive' education should cover the biological parts of procreation, vaginal/oral/anal sex(obviously including same-gender) with information regarding the dangers associated with each, and explain all the horrible parts of pregnancy because for real that ***is scary even without abstinence

the only reason to teach transgender/fetish things is personal bias, they have no real impact on any of the negatives to sex and there's plenty of material for people to experiment with on their own as long as they know the important stuff
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 Cerberus.Laconic
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By Cerberus.Laconic 2015-06-17 14:22:05
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Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Wait, what?
Teaching abstinence isn't teaching absolutely nothing. It's teaching "don't have sex" because "reasons". Which is even less useful then teaching "don't breathe" because "reasons".


And keep in mind, it isn't just teaching "Don't have sex". It's teaching "Don't have premarital sex". Why not? You can get just as pregnant after marriage as before. You can get just as many STDs after marriage as before. It's dumb, artificial delimitation which do no more than reduce the credibility of those imparting the lesson (at best).

Where in any of my posts have I used the word abstinence, please show me.

Ramyrez said: »
It's cute the way you keep saying I change topics or skirt issues when really all I do is open them up to their full real world implications.

Not as cute as this.

Ramyrez said: »
Cerberus.Laconic said: »
Again, teaching the basic birth control methods in class prevents the byproduct "getting pregnant" what this ENTIRE argument is about less teen pregnancy.

"Don't care if kids are well adjusted or have healthy attitudes about sex, just make sure they don't loose any babies from their loins to drag me down."

Got it.
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