Is It Time To Remove Under God From The Pledge? |
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Is it Time to Remove Under God From the Pledge?
Leviathan.Chaosx said: » I don't know; I get the feeling North Koreans aren't so much nationalistic as much as scared for their god damn lives.* In Nazi Germany, the USSR, and Chairman Mao's China there were a lot of people who bought into the rhetoric and propaganda, for a variety of reasons, some quite reasonable at the time. *see what I did there? All public schooling is indoctrination. By design. Because of the Germans (technically Prussians). Private schooling is hardly any better since it uses the same model as its basis.
Education and socialization happen in tandem with it, but just remember what happened to the kid -- well, let's not mince words, it was probably a little boy because girls get beaten with far subtler rubber hoses in order to learn not to assert themselves -- who stood up in class and asked why about virtually any policy in place. There's a perverse part of me that wants to raise a kid just to endure his/her "why?" phase, just to see if I can break the little sod by giving clear, if cynical, answers. One thing I have found while teaching kids is that they understand a lot more than most people give them credit for (and adults understand a lot less -- I'm not sure if that's irony or just a cause for suicidal depression). But I'm half basing that on me and I'm pretty sure I'm not normal. Lakshmi.Flavin said: » Bahamut.Milamber said: » Lakshmi.Flavin said: » I think people need to learn what indoctrination is... Wikipedia said: Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology (see doctrine).[1] It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned.[2] As such the term may be used pejoratively, often in the context of education, political opinions, theology or religious dogma. The term is closely linked to socialization; in common discourse, indoctrination is often associated with negative connotations, while socialization refers to cultural or educational learning There is the concept that it is one nation, not a collection of states/territories. Then there is the concept of the nation being under religious oversight/jurisdiction. And the concept that it is indivisible, or can't be broken apart. Let's not mention that this starts with children around the age of 6-7, being told to pledge allegience to something they don't understand, nor have the mental capability nor experience to understand. Not indoctrination? You are proof that it is working. Bahamut.Milamber said: » Not indoctrination? You are proof that it is working. It's a pledge of allegiance to a flag. Not to the nation itself but to a fabric pattern used as an identifier. All Americans are in alliance with a large rectangle of cloth. I know it goes on from there, but it starts with the flag. And no one seems to process that fact even when they remember the words. I'm fairly convinced most people don't have any grasp of the content of the Lord's Prayer, either, in spite of most Christians having said it literally hundreds or thousands of times in their lives. I have one simple rule, "Don't bite the hand that feeds."
So you're for the abolition of the entire pledge then? That's at least refreshing...
I'm the poster boy for indoctrination now? lols... The goal would be to forcefully implant an ideology onto someone so that they accept it without question. Are you therefore implying that I believe that: Quote: There is the concept that it is one nation, not a collection of states/territories. Then there is the concept of the nation being under religious oversight/jurisdiction. And the concept that it is indivisible, or can't be broken apart. never having critically thought about anything related to it only accepting it because I had to say the pledge of allegiance? I wonder how so many kids even forgot the pledge at this point, don't believe in god for that matter or have a patriotic bone in their body... If this truly is indoctrination you can take comfort in how terribly innefective it is. So what's the point of the pledge?
We could easily have children sing the national anthem (not that any Americans know that ***) as a way of saluting our country while getting a drunken war ballad deep into the subconscious. I love that part about rockets red glare and bombs bursting in air but our flag was still there British scumbags. Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: » (not that any Americans know that ***) Shiva.Onorgul said: » Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: » (not that any Americans know that ***) Wait. What? Who doesn't know the SSB - at least the verse always sing - backward and forward? (Insert obvious joke about Roseanne Barr or Naked Gun reference here). But really. That ***is hammered into us from babyhood in the form of sporting events. Shiva.Onorgul said: » It's a pledge of allegiance to a flag. Not to the nation itself but to a fabric pattern used as an identifier. All Americans are in alliance with a large rectangle of cloth. I know it goes on from there, but it starts with the flag. And no one seems to process that fact even when they remember the words. I'm fairly convinced most people don't have any grasp of the content of the Lord's Prayer, either, in spite of most Christians having said it literally hundreds or thousands of times in their lives. I can't for the life of me figure out why someone would pledge to a flag, except as a poetic symbol. As for the Lord's Prayer, any time my mother would insist on it, my father would say it fast enough that all you could catch was 'Amen', while my grandfather would belt out the 'Father, son, holy ghost; whoever grabs it first gets the most!' Particularily if there was mashed potatoes. Bismarck.Ramyrez said: » But really. That ***is hammered into us from babyhood in the form of sporting events. By the way, you did notice that my post was about the SECOND verse, right? You may have been confused by my using the last line of the first verse: that was to hammer home that no one knows the lyrics past Verse 1 and Chorus. Shiva.Onorgul said: » Bismarck.Ramyrez said: » But really. That ***is hammered into us from babyhood in the form of sporting events. I got the first part about the second verse, but yeah; I got confused with the last line of the first verse and the implication that they were mumbling through *that*. Even I couldn't tell you the rest of the song, though I was at least aware there was more to it. I just never gave a damn enough to learn more than was required of me. Huh.
Every school I went to in FL (7) you had to say the pledge and we listened to the SSB, every morning. Bahamut.Milamber said: » Shiva.Onorgul said: » It's a pledge of allegiance to a flag. Not to the nation itself but to a fabric pattern used as an identifier. All Americans are in alliance with a large rectangle of cloth. I know it goes on from there, but it starts with the flag. And no one seems to process that fact even when they remember the words. I'm fairly convinced most people don't have any grasp of the content of the Lord's Prayer, either, in spite of most Christians having said it literally hundreds or thousands of times in their lives. Rub-a-dub-dub, thanks for the grub. Yay God. Amen. Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: » So what's the point of the pledge? Bismarck.Ramyrez said: » Bahamut.Milamber said: » Shiva.Onorgul said: » It's a pledge of allegiance to a flag. Not to the nation itself but to a fabric pattern used as an identifier. All Americans are in alliance with a large rectangle of cloth. I know it goes on from there, but it starts with the flag. And no one seems to process that fact even when they remember the words. I'm fairly convinced most people don't have any grasp of the content of the Lord's Prayer, either, in spite of most Christians having said it literally hundreds or thousands of times in their lives. Rub-a-dub-dub, thanks for the grub. Yay God. Amen. Who could forget the prayer by the almighty King of Burger? 'Yahweh, right away!' It one thing to recognize actual indoctrination and another to try real hard and squeeze something into a very basic definition and pass it off as such.
Bahamut.Milamber said: » Bismarck.Ramyrez said: » Bahamut.Milamber said: » Shiva.Onorgul said: » It's a pledge of allegiance to a flag. Not to the nation itself but to a fabric pattern used as an identifier. All Americans are in alliance with a large rectangle of cloth. I know it goes on from there, but it starts with the flag. And no one seems to process that fact even when they remember the words. I'm fairly convinced most people don't have any grasp of the content of the Lord's Prayer, either, in spite of most Christians having said it literally hundreds or thousands of times in their lives. Rub-a-dub-dub, thanks for the grub. Yay God. Amen. Who could forget the prayer by the almighty King of Burger? 'Yahweh, right away!' Bahamut.Kara said: » Huh. Every school I went to in FL (7) you had to say the pledge and we listened to the SSB, every morning. Mind you, I mostly used that time to do homework that was due in 5 minutes. My French teacher (I had French at the start of three out of four years of high school) eventually stopped caring since I was becoming fluent regardless. Lakshmi.Flavin said: » It one thing to recognize actual indoctrination and another to try real hard and squeeze something into a very basic definition and pass it off as such. Shiva.Onorgul said: » Bahamut.Kara said: » Huh. Every school I went to in FL (7) you had to say the pledge and we listened to the SSB, every morning. Mind you, I mostly used that time to do homework that was due in 5 minutes. My French teacher (I had French at the start of three out of four years of high school) eventually stopped caring since I was becoming fluent regardless. Yeah, no one was allowed to be sitting down during the pledge or SSB (even if you opted to not recite it). In HS the morning pledge was was handled by a JROTC student, the color guard also did the formal raising/lowering of the flags daily. I was in JROTC and we also had to memorize the preamble to the constitution. If you think the SSB alone was a chore when you're 9, try doing La Borinqueña and Lift Every Voice after the SSB!
Time to mangle spanish. Bahamut.Milamber said: » Lakshmi.Flavin said: » It one thing to recognize actual indoctrination and another to try real hard and squeeze something into a very basic definition and pass it off as such. Peddle your agenda somewhere else lol... Bahamut.Kara said: » Shiva.Onorgul said: » Bahamut.Kara said: » Huh. Every school I went to in FL (7) you had to say the pledge and we listened to the SSB, every morning. Everyone had to memorize the preamble to the Constitution in 8th grade in my school. Hi I'm back after my nap!
This thread sucks. *Goes back to sleep because this thread has long served its purpose for shitstorms* Flav you're not making sense.
Explain how the pledge isn't indoctrination, subtle or otherwise. It's a paragraph of words children are encouraged to repeat for years on end with no follow up lesson including a verbal pact between you and this country, God and about standards you don't learn in school until at least middle/high school. I was doing the PoA as far back as the 1st grade and I'm damn sure I had no idea what the fk was going on other than being forced to put my hand on my heart and repeat some words while standing. It's an exercise in blind nationalism and unit cohesion. Most children discard it because they don't understand what they're saying, don't care and the entire procedure is a holdover. I'm not discussing the effectiveness of the pledge, simply its existence and purpose. |
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