Animator's Workshop: A Puppetmaster's Guide 2.0

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Animator's Workshop: A Puppetmaster's Guide 2.0
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-01-18 14:34:32
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Just as a general barometer, what are the average numbers for your SP, for instance, vs omen fodder/apex? I could never break any real respectable damage with it (had trouble hitting over 10k consistently), though the auto skilchaining made it easier to down the mobs. Just curious.

I couldn't even tell you average numbers, but that's so wildly dependent on target/buffs/debuffs that I feel like it's sorta meaningless to just say a WS has a certain average. Even on an Omen fodder mob - did someone hit it with Dia or some other def down? Is the mob in a GEO bubble? Is there a GEO or BRD even bothering to buff me? It's even harder to eyeball an average on a crit WS, where by its very nature you'll get some far higher numbers when you crit, and a good number of significantly lower ones - even moreso for a crit WS, it's truly an average over a long period of time.

I mean, I was hitting Resolution on WAR (Montante +1/Utu, mid-tier WS set) with weak trust buffs in a solo Omen card farming run last night for huge variance in WS damage: sometimes just a few thousand damage, sometimes for 5 digits. But that's certainly no indication of Reso's worth as a WS (everyone pretty much accepts that when you give it sufficient buffs, it's a powerful zerg staple - you wouldn't know that from my WS average in a lazy Omen run though).

That being said, for Stringing Pummel:
(1) For pure WS damage, it's more of a Kenkonken thing in any case. Without Mythic 30% bonus, damage-wise I'd assume Victory Smite spam is still the way to go in most situations (unless you're using something like Pummel or Shijin more for a specific SC than raw WS damage).
(2) Any PUP should still care about a decent Pummel set, since it's by far the most common PUP WS option for Darkness SCs. Vice versa, Smite is always worth maintaining for its utility in Light SCs (even where Shijin works too, Smite tends to be better for damage).

Perhaps Howling Fist is part of the future, with all this WS DMG gear we have seen more recently... But I'm not on that train quite yet. And ugh, those garbage SC properties.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-01-18 14:45:25
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I understand the variables. I was just looking for a general number of what you've frequently hit ballpark wise so I would know if mine was similar or remarkably low or close to it. But whatever. h2h ws sucks, I won't even bother gearing for it since I'll only really engage for apex, in which case it will be a 5 step sc anyways and my damage won't matter.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2018-01-24 14:36:14
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anyone willing to share a somewhat updated dps spreadsheet?
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By Sockfoot 2018-02-08 15:37:46
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Assuming all relevant +Pet: Enmity gear/maneuvers/setup, just how hard is it to pull hate off the automatons at the moment?
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-02-08 15:45:10
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I tank all of Omen on PUP and have no trouble holding hate even against some WAR.
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By clearlyamule 2018-02-08 15:50:06
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It wont have the enmity generation of run or pld and it's hard to really use enmity gear but it's pretty solid.

A good fully buffed dd can pull hate off anything though other than a better DD lol so really depends on how much you trying.
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By Sockfoot 2018-02-08 15:52:46
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
I tank all of Omen on PUP and have no trouble holding hate even against some WAR.
Good to know!

clearlyamule said: »
It wont have the enmity generation of run or pld and it's hard to really use enmity gear but it's pretty solid.

A good fully buffed dd can pull hate off anything though other than a better DD lol so really depends on how much you trying.
Yeah, I don't doubt it is a pain to watch timers and switch gear manually, but that is ok. I was curious about best case scenarios.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-02-08 16:18:43
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The big thing is that hate reset moves are harder for PUP to deal with than other tanks, since you're relying on Strobe/Flashbulb timers and the puppet will use the move right away when timer is up (unless you intentionally have no fire or light up so you can put it up immediately after a move, but that's normally not very practical). It's not THAT hard to overcome by just getting the rest of your party to understand they need to chill until you have time to do a Voke/Flash and get hate back, and you can't just sit on an enmity JA/spell like a PLD or RUN can in anticipation of the hate reset. But sometimes people will refuse to listen...

Less of a problem when you go with the same people who get a chance to get used to PUP tanking, but since it's less widely used you may encounter people who are inexperienced with how PUP works.

clearlyamule said: »
it's hard to really use enmity gear but it's pretty solid.
As for enmity gear being hard to use, I don't really find it that difficult but that might be somewhat down to my personal style of not using GS and being more used to manually hitting appropriate macros. I just use the Windower pet timer addon thing, and when I see Strobe/Flashbulb timers are close to ready, I manually hit my enmity+ gear macro (which includes 5/5 NQ Heyoka, both Enm+5 earrings). Then when the puppet uses the moves, I go back to normal DT- tanking gear (my default DT- set is also at the end of all of my maneuver macros).

I actually wouldn't want to automate this anyway, there's a bit of a judgment call going on - if for some reason the puppet was in danger, I'd probably want to turtle up and not automatically swap into gear with more enm+ and less DT-. Wouldn't really want GS to automatically stick me in enm gear when for some reason I knew a big move was coming, or the puppet had low hp.

It's not like PUP tanking tends to have that many other things going on that take up your time, so if you're focused on your character it should be kind of a non-issue (and maybe more engaging to play anyway). I often PUP tank AND hit most of my Enm gear swaps while also playing my dualboxed alt on RDM or something (tossing out buffs/enfeebles), since neither one is incredibly taxing in most fights.

If it's something where I can hold hate without much issue, I'm also often just sitting in DT- gear fulltime, using 2x Fire/1x Light as much as possible. There are many fights where I don't care about enmity gear as much, or on the flip side sometimes there is so little threat of the puppet getting hurt that I just straight up tank for a while in enm+ gear (and fill other slots with DT-/HP+/whatever where I can).

Ramuh.Austar said: »
I tank all of Omen on PUP and have no trouble holding hate even against some WAR.

Yeah, aside from hate resets it's not bad.
* Holding off of mages is trivally easy.
* I don't have trouble on ranged unless it's something that any other tank would also have trouble on (99k WS/SC on Fu after he takes a bunch of buffs? PUP has trouble there, but so does PLD... that's more a general tanking thing than a PUP specific issues)
* Melees is the hardest, especially strong buffed zerg situations. PUP is a little worse here than a PLD or a RUN (especially with the ability for them to use /BLU or something for great enmity gain). It's still plenty doable though, unless you're with incredible DDs that would give other tanks trouble too.

The other notable downside is that PUP is very poor when trying to hold hate on multiple mobs, there's really no viable tool for that, whereas RUN and PLD (and /BLU for either) have some AoE enmity tools. That's just not a situation where automatons make particularly good tanks.

My usual thought process goes:
* Single mob to tank?
* No doom?
* Infrequent hate resets?
* Doesn't require RUN to boost magic damage from Rayke/Gambit?
* No other specific gimmicks that are PUP unfriendly (rare)?

If true to all of the above, PUP is probably my preferred tanking option. I say this as an Epeo RUN with solid PLD LS-mates too.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-02-08 16:57:01
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Also, specific to Omen:

Fu: PUP tank is great, we generally prefer it to other tanks since you can really load Fu up with buffs and he still can't kill the puppet.

Kin: We tend to go with 2 tanks, PUP + PLD. PUP main tank until Target, once Kin uses 11th Dimension (the 3min terror move) on the targeted automaton, I just deactivate, reactivate, and redeploy while using max enm+ gear to get hate back.

Kei: Solo PUP tank, you can do this by giving the puppet a lot of HP to take Dancing Fullers without dying (might need to make sure GEO puts Luopons away, that's a pretty typical cause of accidental death). There's still some risk of an ill timed curse HP- screwing that up. Or, my group tends to just use a PLD or RUN solo tank for this fight (RUN is probably ideal here since you can help out nukers with Rayke/Gambit) - it's a little easier for them to just run away.

Kyou: Unfaltering Bravado can be kind of annoying. The way my group tends to go when we have a PUP is just taking 2 tanks, and having the backup tank get out of range for FullersBravado and let the puppet just eat it for a death then the backup tank jumps in to take care of things for a short time. Then, like Kin, reactivate that puppet and get it back in there with enm+ gear on to take hate and repeat the process. Could certainly also have everyone stack to split the Bravado damage - but that's a little more prone to error than just letting the puppet be a sacrifice, in my experience.

Gin: A bit obnoxious with all the Zero Hour hate resets. Probably the one Omen boss I don't really like PUP for; I actually prefer PLD RUN here. PUP can do it, but needs your other members to understand that puppets need some time to get the mob back after reset.

Ou: We tend to like the 2 tank PUP+PLD setup here too, as a conservative/risk-averse approach and leaving a backup tank for stuff like an unfortunate Fullers/Bravado. Basically all of the above tips apply though.

Midbosses: Gorger and Thinker are a non-issue to tank (I actually think puppet on Thinker gives a bigger margin for error to survive a big Pain Sync). Glassy Craver can kinda suck with solo PUP tank due to Impalement hate reset. If support is on the ball (e.g. use Wilt, everyone bunches up for curaga) and DDs know what a DT- set is, it's OK though. I don't really love tanking it on PUP though. When we go with 2 tanks, I tend to just let the other tank be main tank, and I get right in there and melee away. If for some reason the main tank dies, I get out of there and leave my tanking puppet - can recover this way fairly safely if people get killed.

2 tanks doesn't really hurt on runs like Kyou/Kin/Ou if you have the numbers, since there's no HP scaling and it can actually make the climb a bit easier with multiple tanks for people killing the mobs (we tend not to do AoE kills). It works pretty well for us with a group that's usually ~8-12 people for Omen, and really reduces the risk of any mistakes versus having something like one PLD who can't screw up at the risk of a potential wipe. If you wanted to go lower man, single PUP tank is certainly doable though.
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By clearlyamule 2018-02-08 17:20:14
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Oh I understand how to use pet enmity gear. And yes with the right addons and such it's not terrible but requires a bit more attention than most things partying these days. If you don't have other things taking up attention and got those addons go for it.

Idling in it though is kind of half splitting. You'll generate more and loss less for the dmg you take but taking more will also increase losses.

I find hate resets as long as they aren't too cmon are one of the best uses of Ventriloquy. Good quick way to get hate back when you want.

Some things to add for those bosses

Kei: You can load up enough hp to survive with 1 extra thing in range or curse but not both. Takes some weird gearing and attachments but Kei is such a pushover otherwise

Kyou: No idea what you mean by out of range for fullers there... maybe nukes or normal cat moves?
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-02-08 20:05:37
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clearlyamule said: »
Oh I understand how to use pet enmity gear. And yes with the right addons and such it's not terrible but requires a bit more attention than most things partying these days. If you don't have other things taking up attention and got those addons go for it.

True, it does require a little more attention (and I'm quite sure none of this was news to you, but was trying to fully explain it for people newer to PUP tanking)... but honestly, if you're ONLY playing PUP and not dualboxing something else, it tends to almost be boring with how little there is to do. So I don't see it as a very big deal to have to watch stuff a little more carefully. I know when I switch to RUN (or hell, even a DD where I have to time JA/WS better, or a RNG where I'm constantly shooting) it's SO much busier.

On the bright side, that often means I can tank on PUP without issue while giving 85%+ of my attention to playing RDM or SCH or something on my alt :) Just keep those maneuvers up (particularly easy once duration gets up to 5min), get ready for predictable big moves that require some JA usage, and you're good.

Quote:
Idling in it though is kind of half splitting. You'll generate more and loss less for the dmg you take but taking more will also increase losses.

Yep, this can be an issue keeping hate too, if you're eating significant damage without reducing it through a lot of DT-. More often than not, if I'm idling in one set it's my default DT- gear when I don't feel there's a major risk of losing hate. But sometimes you run into one of those mobs that can barely put a dent in the puppet even when you're just rocking your enm+ set. In that case... eh, not really much loss in just keeping the enm+ stuff on for better voke/flashes.

Quote:
I find hate resets as long as they aren't too cmon are one of the best uses of Ventriloquy. Good quick way to get hate back when you want.

Kinda? It's a nice instant JA, but the hate that it puts back on your puppet is still next to nothing, so that one DD who doesn't pay attention and launches a big WS is still going to get the mob's attention. Guess this comes down to how disciplined your party members are at holding damage when a reset move like Zero Hour is coming (mine are... often overzealous).

Edit: though, one thing you can do is use a subjob with some enmity generation tools, like PUP/WAR, and provoke first and THEN Ventriloquy. As I think about it, that's honestly prob the best approach for something like Gin (and I tend to /WAR for Omen anyway if just for punching stuff on 1F/2F/4F)

Quote:
Kyou: No idea what you mean by out of range for fullers there... maybe nukes or normal cat moves?

I... uh... that was supposed to be about Unfaltering Bravado, not Fullers. Thanks for catching the mistake :)
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 Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2018-02-08 22:11:24
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I keep a macro for pup/whm when tanking: flash > wait > ventriloquy

or on /war when engaged provoke/ventriloquy

works great to grab hate quickly during a hate reset.
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By clearlyamule 2018-02-08 22:12:49
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Ah seeing part of my thing is if I'm having my auto straight tank I'm having it tank for my other accounts rng lol.

Idling in enmity my main point is from just enmity perspective the 2 kind of cancel out. Unless you are taking basically no dmg either way in which case why tank lol.

For Vent that's somewhat what I meant but more along the lines of building hate during the fight and not getting hit with it yourself too. Not enough to actually pull it off your auto just enough so that when a hate reset happens you can dump a bunch onto it. So like /blu shenanigans minus the constant dump. Obviously depends on how fast the resets are coming and how safely you can get in range to build some but you can throw pretty decent amounts onto the auto

Ah for Bravado it's pretty easy just to get on the other side since it's conal. That's what I do when I tribox with pup since letting it move some might get my masters in meteor range which I don't like... well that and they are both DDing as well as tanking
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By Sockfoot 2018-02-14 03:08:46
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Have been trying to find info/recreate the "auto not WS'ing" glitch by switching between Anim P and P II. Tried it before engaging, while engaged (which disengaged, upon re-engaging would still WS)... no luck so far. What am I doing wrong?

edit: if it is still possible in the same way that it was, is there a way to make the auto use attachments? A friend is able to get it to work sometimes, but it won't use Flashbulb or Provoke apparently?
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By Siren.Khary 2018-02-28 10:25:48
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Can someone tell me if there's a command string for equipping attachments onto my Automaton? Thanks in advance :D
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By Asura.Lunafreya 2018-02-28 10:53:45
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Autocontrol if you are using Windower. It saves entire sets and they can be changed easily.
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By Siren.Khary 2018-02-28 11:38:22
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Thank you so much!
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By Asura.Psylo 2018-03-13 02:45:15
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So, relic gear are on now, i would say we have a good 3/5, not so bad. (/comfort BST)

Perfect body pour pet TP
And both legs + feet for a powerfull pet nuke set.

Speaking of nuke set, what people use as main weapon for nuking ?
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-03-13 03:25:00
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There's basically 2 options.
Gnafron's Adargas and Nibiru Sainti.
If you're not engaging yoruself you can use Gnafron as they give the same amount of +skill (20) but also increase HP/MP.
If you have to engage yourself (but why?!) then go with augmented Nibiru.

Can't think of anything else but maybe I'm missing something.
Capuchin already made an insight of Relic for PUP but btw here's my take


Head> Expensive idle piece, possible use for hybrid builds but I'm unconvinced (especially when you factor the cost)

Body> Awesome for melee pet and hybrid builds.

Hands> Uhm, has its use I guess, plus it's okaysh as a WS option for Master.

Legs> BiS for pet nuking (but nuking sucks!)

Feet> As above
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By flyingsquirrel 2018-03-13 03:34:40
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There's also Tinhaspa (mab+15) as another i119 option
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 Asura.Psylo
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By Asura.Psylo 2018-03-13 03:52:52
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yep PUP nuking is meh but i love have a set updated in case of hummm something.

In fact i got a lot of 99K MB with my pup, but if only he can cast more often, it can be usefull.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-03-13 09:24:32
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So elaborate on PUP nuking, because I've never tried it. Same with Healing (though I use trusts for that).

Do you just use Ice Maneuvers, and when the SC is ready, you deploy and he MBs? Or is he able to follow and read the chat log and he MBs at will.
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By Nariont 2018-03-13 09:54:02
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Deploy a second or so after sc, it mbs, you either lose all ice manuevers due to using ice maker, and/or you wait for the next sc as the puppet only knows how to mb once per sc
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-03-13 10:30:02
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You need to use the MB-specific Attachments, which reset the spell cooldown, give a huge MB bonus and give some FastCast as well.

Problem is they don't work 100% of the time and to make the damage decent yes, you need to use Ice Maker as well and at least 2 ice maneuvers. Think you kinda need 3 if you wanna hit 99k reliably, aside from stuff like BoG/Bolster/Idris Malaise/Languor of course.
But then again that would happen on targets that do not really matter so your bragging rights kinda get devaluated after you sadly realize that =/
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2018-03-13 12:46:25
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Do you just use Ice Maneuvers, and when the SC is ready, you deploy and he MBs? Or is he able to follow and read the chat log and he MBs at will.

Either method works, but its more reliable to use Ice Maneuvers and deploy when skillchain is ready.

for bursting, you want Amplifiers equiped. W/ an Amplifier your auto will burst when opportunity arises... as long as its not conflicting w/ some other aspect of casting cycle. If auto is casting aspir or drain, its not going to burst. I think auto sits there for longer waiting for opportunity to burst sometimes also. I didn't remember exactly because i wasn't taking notes, but I did get frustrated waiting for it to cast and burst when I wasn't conttolling it more directly.

The downside of manually controlling is that you have a more strict time delay.

Deactivate > Activate > Ice Maneuver x3 > Deploy

You can deploy w/ fewer than 3x maneuvers but you will burst weaker. This puts you roughly on at least 35 second wait for each burst. The bigger you can burst the better, because any mages bursting will go at el

IF you do not Deactivate, then auto will cycle thru other spells before trying to burst again. You may try deploying at just the right time to burst, but Auto casts Aspir instead.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-03-13 13:19:18
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Wait a minute.... you have to deactivate > activate after EVERY MB to reset the timer for that particular spell?
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-03-13 15:00:43
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Yup. And now you see why it's not worth the mega-hassle for strong nukes on trash mobs. Even for CP mobs where it's somewhat viable, I'd kill myself before I suffered through that for hours and hours of CP.

Even if you run into a situation where the puppet will do two consecutive good nukes (say, it casts Thunder then Fire on a mob where you're MBing off Light SCs), after that you quickly start running into Aspir-hell unless you reactivate.

FWIW, another viable weapon option if you feel you must do repeating nuking is just to forego Macc/MAB/skill from weapon slot and use Midnights or Kenkonken for the overload reduction (and Midnights also gives more INT per maneuver, so that's a pretty good choice). One of the few times where overloading becomes a real practical concern is when you're frequently doing activate > Ice Maneuver x3.
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-03-13 18:04:33
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Wait a minute.... you have to deactivate > activate after EVERY MB to reset the timer for that particular spell?
No.
The Deactivate/Activate is for other reasons.
To reset the burden and to refresh the MP to full.
If you don't the MP will fall and after a certain threshold (it takes like what, 2 spells?) the Automaton will try to cast Aspir instead of trying to MB.

The Automaton AI is very wonky.
What resets the spell recast is Amplifierx2, when they proc.
Sometimes they don't... and there's nothing you can do about it, it's wonky. Most of the times it does if you get the Deploy timing right.


Everything about Automatons, be it BLM, RDM or WHM is extremely unreliable and wonky, to the point players have to resort to very annoying tactics (like the ADD to name one) as a mean to circumvein them.
There's sadly very little control you can exert over your automaton in these circumstances.
Well there is, but it just isn't always 100% reliable alas.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-03-14 13:06:01
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Yeah, I guess to clarify... you don't NEED to deactivate/activate/deploy (DAD) to reset a single spell timer. But in general, the automaton universal spell recast timer is faster than the recast for your big nukes. So you won't be able to just keep a puppet deployed and get, say, Thunder V followed by another Thunder V. Either have to retrieve and wait a bit to re-deploy, or DAD to get a fresh automaton with full MP and all spells ready to cast.

As a practical necessity, I find that it's generally best to leave the puppet out for a couple big nukes, then DAD. But once you go much beyond that, you're getting into Aspir territory. Which is basically just a lost spell - and that really, really hurts when the major flaw of automaton nuking is how damn slow it casts (i.e., a single nuke per skillchain).

This is why even if a single puppet nuke gets respectable numbers, it doesn't tell anything close to the whole story because any real mage is probably doing 3x the quantity of nukes, getting multiple spells in per MB window, etc. And that's aside from the issues that real mages typically won't occasionally just toss out an Aspir or off-element nuke on a prime MB chance due to finicky AI (or skip a MB because they're busy taking 20-30 seconds fooling with JAs and getting maneuvers up) - all of these combined issues really torpedo the puppet's overall magic damage potential.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2018-03-14 16:33:03
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automaton will cast DRain > Aspir > Aspir II > nuke when using spiritreaver head.

it won't cast Drain or Aspir if hp/mp are above 75%

so the more mp you have in total pool, the less auto will need to aspir. Also if you want to get tricky, you can start w/ gear giving lots of pet mp, then remove it as mp is used to hold back on aspir being used.

Also, I find it useful to keep condenser in nuking set when using ice maker.
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