Tojil Under 25mins

know what is funny? some people posting in this thread are actually bragging much more than they think that the OP was... pathetic.

Maybe you're bragging about thinking about bragging, ever think about that!?

DD wise: Depend on your job you may need to swap to acc set at some point of time. T5 NM in ceizak can have lower than 90% hit rate if your pt not using acc song and no acc swap, and how'd you gonna know that if you don't do research/have experience? Do you expect your pt lead to baby sit your job and provide you ideal set for each member in a PUG situation?

You may need + HP set/turtle set if lahar lands. If you don't do research before joining the /shout, just rely on 30 min explanation from pt lead, how'd you gonna come up with HP/turtle gear out of nowhere in 30min?

Mage wise: Certain TP move can plague/poison/stat down. If you don't read about TP move nor have experience, are you going to wait for DD to type /p erase please before you -na and erase? Or do you expect pt lead list every TP move for every NM before you go? If you value 17 other ppl's time so much, you shouldn't expect pt lead to spend another 30 min explaining each TP move and their additional effect, nor wait until DD ask for -na/erase then cast them. If you can't -na/erase before DD ask in /p chat, your DD lose DPS and kill slower because every sec they're not getting -na/erase they're losing DPS, thus wasting another 17 ppl's time.

None of the JP runs I joined got into that much detail when it comes to how to play the job in delve instance, and those information do improve performance and should be done on each member's own time.
Those information, such as the additional effect of each TP move, are listed on the website and it'd increase your -na/erase speed even if you have 0 experience.

The countless times I've had JPs respond to shouts, only to ask JP members of my shell what the shout is for. Very prepared!

There are retards within every community, the only difference between the NA/EU and JP, is the JP are JP only.

Afania is obviously correct, and anyone who disagree's i do not want in my delve runs. if you don't know the ins and outs of abilities and situations theyre used in/when to use them, from every job perspective then good luck getting an invite to something youre being thrown into for the first time for experience.

And to all the geo's out there that think youre doing good if youve just "survived", brd's who *** walk by someone asking for stona, ect, honestly. if you have an mp pool and ANYONE in your alliance dies(i dont care if its empty, use *** coalition ethers) then you should feel bad, terrible. when I lead runs (or join jp runs like the one i was in with shabbaa) i look for this stuff and it speaks to your actual game IQ and what your ability and skill would be under stressful and unique circumstances.

Also, to hell with all the melee's that dont hit their easy to find ws macro right when they hit 100 tp, rather than wait till *** 170 or 200, lol.

edit: gearsets for several situations should be required. if you arent swapping gear while TPing based on buffs active, debuffs on you, or generally just being intuitive with your gear, then you sir/maam, are the one of the DD's that are a last resort on your server, grats.

None of the general T1-6 threads talks about this (unless I miss something major, I have crawled through all forums and many JP blog posts for Ceizak). This is experience which I agree with as mentioned earlier, not research. Plus general experience with your job would teach you this. This sounds like it's best by observation - "if i miss a lot, maybe I should change my gearset to a more +acc set." Some dedicated DD would bring antacids and change food. I have also seen DD who ask for hunter's roll mid fight. It is also part of the strategy (which brings back to the importance of good leader)... I bring at least 5 songs into Ceizak to ensure Madrigal is up. I make corsair rotate to ensure hunters roll is up. So yes, it is the job of the leader to know that Ceizak is a generally evasive zone and should know that acc is important.


Lahar should never land. If it lands your sch is not doing their job properly. But in the situation where Lahar lands, yes you need PDT gear i agree. As a host I tell people to prepare for this during briefing (again, ability to listen will take you through). And I'd spam chat log for PDT / tell whm to throw big cures to let cure skin to take the dmg as well. If you need 30 mins to brief you're doing it wrong, too much information for DDs to take in and they will just forget what's important.



I started off with main whm. And I look them up to prep for what you say, had the page up on the screen so i can reference it. But in reality? There's so many moves that gives you debuffs from T1-T6 that you can't possibly remember. (we're poking into the realm of omg windower is bad here but...) Battlemod solves A LOT of this since it tells you most of the time if the move gives a debuff. So battlemod or experience will give you this yes - for a newcomer to read it up is just too much information. I do try to tell the whms to erase everytime you see headbutt/stomp on kurma, but how many does that I wouldn't know since I filtered them out. Even a lot of whms who likes to call themselves veteran fails this, and this is just a general skill for whm to have... even paralyga some players still can't anticipate for it. If it is a good whm, he/she will have picked up those moves after 1-2 request for the -na/erase. It is close to pointless to read it up.



Is it true that JP players do prep for the instance? or just everyone who joined the run fit the "keiken Ari (have experience)" requirement that is on /seacom? I think it is more likely that it is the latter. The only difference is that JP PUG tends to be 2 tiered. Ones that require exp, and the other says "welcome beginners". This is already a more extensive filter than most NA/EU PUG :P

yea,but windower or no windower, there's no excuse for essentially lying to the person who is making a party by not knowing what to do without being asked. game mechanics in general should go without saying.

A win is a win period. I failed tojil so many times with pug it was not even funny. I got it below 5% more than a few times and wiped aswell. The ls I used to go with was always LS/PUG because we didn't have enough people with proper jobs in shell. I have since changed LS and the group I go with now has beaten tojil and shark in that last week. Going with a group that is steady and compitent has made all the difference in the world for me, you won that fast with a pug Congrats to you^.

Rotating COR in ceizak is just waste too. Ideally COR should /DNC and DD for faster kill, you can cap acc without hunter if your DD is prepared. You claim to be a "good leader", then why not just use superior setup for faster kill speed?


There's no such thing as "lahar should never land", again, a good leader/DD should never assume such thing.

http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Magic_Hit_Rate

Unless I understand this incorrectly, out of 100 stuns there's always 5 fail stuns, no matter how good your SCH is.

There's also human error/accident factor, maybe when your SCH about to hit stun his dog bite him, or his power went off, or he just *** make 1 mistake after 300 stuns.

Maybe your past 300 tojil had perfect stun and no lahar, that doesn't mean your 301st tojil won't have a fail stun. DDs should carry HP/turtle gear for tojil, period. No matter how good your group is and how flawless stun was in past 300 tojil.

I've seen experienced group wipe to lahar, because they always had perfect stun and sleep through tojil fight, when 1 miss stun happen after many, many flawless Tojil run, nobody know how to deal with lahar and just wiped. The result is waste of a run because they don't assume it could happen.

I used to be like you, think everything is leader's responsibility for everything. I've been making PUG since pre-SoA for many game content, I'd make "who's good who's bad" list and only invite specific ppl. If I'm going to invite someone I don't know I'd question him 100 questions about his gear set, play style, subjob and everything. I'd baby sit everyone's job role, spent 30 min explaining things, or even link videos for pt members to see them.

Recently I started playing 14, and it changed my opinion toward "leader's responsibility". Idk about NA community in 14, but if I join a speed run/Primal HM, even if leader don't /shout for gear requirement I still don't see anyone wearing sub ilv 50 gears to those event, they almost always automatically know what to do, and have right gear on them. If someone is completely new and not knowing what to do, they always mention it's their first time, so ppl would teach them what to do.

Then I realized what I've been doing, was not right. It shouldn't be leader's responsibility to begin with, it's everyone's. So instead of continue to make "who's good who's bad list", I'm going to be a little bit more constructive, that is to advocate the right attitude toward joining an event.

Reading on TP move is not "pointless" because you can learn it after 2 TP move, it's your responsibility to read it before event. Winning an event is group effort, it shouldn't be 1 single person's responsibility. If leader is "wasting 17 ppl's time" for not filtering player. Not reading TP move, or apply on WAR/DNC in full AF is equally wasting leader's time to filter you out or baby sit you. And if you're not experienced and completely first time, you should ask questions, not pretending to be a vet just to get into the pt and make mistakes.

stun can half/fourth resist on duration, so capped m.acc:

half resist 1/20
fourth resist 1/400
full resist 1/8000

if you assume 10 lahars per tojil and consistantly kill fast enough to not worry about resistance building then you'd only see one lahar per 800 tojils

also, if you use galka dd you don't need turtle gear!

You're missing the point. rotating cor is a waste, rotating brd is a waste, some would say putting a pld there is a waste, second sch is a waste... I never claimed to be a good leader but I have been in enough PUGs to get a feel what is a good leader and a bad leader, and it tends to correlate with win rate. To be a PUG leader, you try to optimise your strategy to minimise the risk of unknown quality of people(nature of PUG). Rotating COR may be a "waste" to you, but it's extra buff at no cost that will help to recover some slack that a bad quality DD will bring, so what are you wasting? COR/DNC may be a better choice, but it is not something that CORs themselves are used to, it is also not something that whms/brds are used to. You are probably going to add confusion to the group by making a cor come /dnc, and the whms/brd would not know to cover the haste/na for them... also questionnable how well they will hit to consistently land samba and steps (most CORs go to get quick wins for their main jobs, it's questionnable whether they have a decent weapon/gearset to hit). So you are relying on your COR is well geared, can do what they are not used to, and the whms/brds to know better and can support an extra DD - so you are adding extra risk on the unknown (quality of players) - of course if you know your cor and you know your whms, it is a different matter.

If you are Comeatmebro you can probably kill all 3 zones with like 8 characters. But if you are a PUG leader and expect everyone who joins your PUG to be geared/act like Comeatmebro and create strategies/setup with such assumption, then you are just lowering your chance of winning. My point has always been, the leader with good leading skills and a good plan tends to be the key to high winning chances. From my observation, this has been the case for successful PUGs. It's always the same leaders who keep failing, even with similar people joining the runs.


I play sch so I kind of know what I am talking about here. Lahar never lands. Tojil is so easy to read that any person who has the ability to stare at the screen and decently geared should never let lahar or any TP move go off (sch being trigger happy is fine if you bring 2 , the other can cover you on next TP move... or if you had alacrity up on that stun you can pretty much stun straight away). Taking Comeatmebro's statistic - only 1/8000 stuns will resist. so your probability of letting lahar goes off is 1/8000 * P(move you are stunning is lahar). Maybe I have just not been that "lucky". I haven't won a 2nd price in the lottery draw either :P If it is consistent stun resist then you have taken so long on Tojil that your run is pretty much over, turtle gear or no turtle gear. A DD who is good will always have a PDT set with them (or have access to one who can just go and grab it when you brief them). A bad DD who's done 10 Tojils and have "experience" will still never have a PDT set. You are talking more about the quality of players here than anything to be honest.


Experienced group != good skilled. Reading up on something != Experienced. Veteran old school good player with no experience in delve != sucks. That's is how i feel.


You are, once again, missing my point. I say it's close to pointless because in my experience I cannot remember all the moves that gives debuff effect even though i looked it up before i played my first delve of the zone. There are too many moves that gives effects and you have to remember what effects they give to act accordingly. It's a lot easier to pick it up as you go and the effects of those 1-2 seconds before you lift the debuff is minimal. Maybe I have a memory of goldfish and maybe other whms are just awesome. But I picked it after 1-2 TP moves and do better than the "experienced whm" on my first run of delve, who was still waiting for the DDs to prompt him. So I believe it is more to do with the quality of the players in order to do what you claim someone who read it up can do.


Sure. And if everyone is kind to everyone, there will be no war, no starvation, no terrorism. That's just not reality. There will always be noobs out there who see you shout for something and see they have the job you look for so they hop on board. To be fair they may not be leechers, they just did not know this is the highest level content and what is required of them. Thus as a leader it is your responsibility to filter them out. JPs filter them out (at least in cerb they do so by putting Keiken Ari on their /seacom, once again I can't say for ragnorak or any other servers).

This has always been what I feel like and your opinion is yours of course. I think leaders matters and a lot of responsibility should be taken as a leader, it's not as simple as conveying a strategy that works in a ls and shouting for a few mins/hr to gather people. Even in the linkshell event world, good ls always have good leaders (at least under my observation). PUGs actually need even better leaders because of unknown quality of players. Blaming NA PUG failures to bad general NA/EU players and saying JP players are generally more skilled/informed is a bit meh - This is my opinion, given the observation in Cerberus - maybe it's not the case in Ragnorak, because people don't seem to avoid PUGs like a plague in Cerberus. Or maybe I'm a sucky player that's been playing with sucky people but been managing to win fairly consistently - which means delve runs are too easy. Which I also agree. ^_^

Ehh you don't bring a BLU for *maximum damage* cause honestly their not going to bet an equivalent MNK / DRK going full throttle. You bring a BLU to give a giant middle finger to SE's damage mechanics, their the absolute best job at spamming Requiescat and happen to also be capable of inflicting a 30s terror effect along with average overall damage. They earn their spot by making certain NM's easier, Scorp, Mastop, Bee, Oboron and Krab are all easier / faster with a BLU along. You can even AT Urganite if it floats your boat. Ceizek with two BLU's is piss easy, provided your support don't f*ck it up.

Right, so you admit you make COR rotation not because it's optimal, but a way to solve PUG issue, that actually make my point valid: A DD(including COR) that's experienced/prepared will increase pt performance. COR not going /DNC and DD needing hunter is the result of DD and COR not prepared. That being said, I agree that /DNC isn't a must for COR if you only want win and not going for optimal result, but it doesn't change the fact that pt has better performance if they do it.





My point was, you tend to blame leader for being responsible for everything, that's something I don't agree with, it's not about your method of dealing with PUG and get win, and it's not about making assumption of every PUG member plays perfect, it's about the team: Every member is part of the team, thus everyone has equal responsibility for failing/winning the run. It shouldn't be just leader's responsibility alone.

Leader's responsibility: organize strategy, communication, tell ppl what to do.

Pt member's responsibility: play job properly, have proper gear, follow order or provide input on strategy to make it better.

Showing up in WAR AF and /DNC, is 100% pt member's fault, not leaders. Leader's responsibility should be organize and communicate strategy only, not baby sit ppl's job. Sure you can work extra hard to ensure win, by doing extra work to filter them out, but leader shouldn't be blamed for not doing extra work.

If the leader tell the team a ***strategy that will never work, then it's leader's fault for failing the run. But it shouldn't be leader's responsibility to make sure A DD has X set Y set using Z subjob. If A DD is doing wrong, it's A's fault, not leader's.



There are war, starvation and terrorism, and most of the ppl disapprove it, because war/starvation/terrorism is "politically incorrect". The fact that it exist in reality doesn't change the fact that majority of the ppl hate war.

We all know war/starvation/terrorism is "political incorrect", but how come applying on empy SAM NIN or WAR/DNC in AF isn't political incorrect? If someone get into the pt with 0 knowledge about the content, on WAR/DNC in AF, and we all blame the leader, not the WAR/DNC, what kind of logic is that?

Just because there are always ppl try to join on WAR/DNC full AF hoping to leech a win, doesn't mean I'd think it's right attitude. As long as we believe it's "leader's responsibility" to filter sub-optimal geared players not reading forum, players will continue to apply on empy SAM NIN and WAR full AF, and continue to waste leader's time.

DT- sets during PD zergs. wut.

Let me summarise it for you-

1. Afania plays with JP by using some predetermined phrases to get in and doesn't like eng PUG

2. I play with PUGs and enjoy it a bit too much

3. We like typing

I agree with a lot you mentioned, although leader should not have to babysit, it is there responsibility to build/lead therefore making the decision who goes.
Wile a leader may take a crap player for w/e reason known or unknown. The alliance is saying wtf did he/she bring them for. Its not there choice who goes. Its the leaders.
At least visually look at people you are un-familiar with.
If not actually screen them at least to a point of stupidity like DT sets? Do you have 5/5 X weapon skill? Do you even have the weapons skill?
Even though this should not have to be asked, it needs to be in pugs.
I have heard of war showing up rippin Raging Rush, not till after the fail they asked do you have upheaval? That would be the leaders fault for not addressing it in the 1st place as he controls who comes and who doesn't. Yes i Agree people who shouldn't be there shouldn't ask to join, but they do & its the leaders job to sort them out, cuz some people don't care if they embarrass themselves.

When i use to do pugs 2months+ ago i was extremely selective and screened every member to be sure they where prepared for the worst & had optimal sets to play there job.

If leaders didn't do some kind of screening and took the 1st to /t that has the job you would end up with abysea noobs or people with 5/5 skirmish & don't even gear swop. Iv been threw it as i did pugs i became more and more selective everyday as the aggravation of incompetent people never end.
If say the member joins has well gear & claims he is veteran & he Fks up, then its the members fault not the leaders.

Its not always 1 persons fault, but all it takes is 1 person to bring down the alliance.

If you want to win consistently you need to screen & be selective otherwise you are waisting 17 other peoples time along with your own. Its a pug, you don't no what is going to happen next, just when you think you seen it all someone goes and chi blast Mata 5sec before it hits #7. Prepare for the worst!

Specially since most experienced players that where in LS's have all delve drops and stop playing due to lack of content or boredom. leaving the only options are all those players who couldn't get into a Delve shell for various reasons are still trying to get wins. Not to be a *** but they are the left overs & where neglected for a reason. Doesn't mean they don't deserve a chance but they need to bring something to offer or to work with and willing to take advice. And that is the leaders call to make if he/she wants to chance a casualty. Leaders should take responsibility of there members actions no matter how stupid it may be.

No matter you like it or not being a host means you're adding a layer of work for yourself, and a difference between a bad leader and a good leader is the realisation of that. Putting it in reverse, a successful run has a quite a lot to do with the leader making the right choice, from filtering people to strategy, how you convey your strategy and what you decide to so when things don't go to plan. Because the filtering you can apply is a lot weaker than ls recruitment, the latter 3 takes a lot more importance.

And no I don't agree that cor rotation is suboptimal - if what you want is the optimal strategy and can assume high skilled players then the obvious solution is to rotate them as well as making them come /dnc. Because I cannot assume high quality players I don't make them come /dnc but make them rotate even if they screw up rotation they still have 2 rolls done so the risk is not that high.

I Dont always blame the leader, I don't blame anyone. I evaluate the situation and see what went wrong and how it can be done better. It just happens that when I host runs and evaluate what went wrong I come to realise that there are often things I could've done better on the management level.

Anyway we are going around in circles and perhaps even nit picking the details here :p I find doing pugs fun and have met a lot of new friends out of it. the win rate is not as bad as some people claims. But I am sure we can agree to disagree and we will keep playing the game the way we enjoy it :D

how did i know that you'd end up leading delve shouts itchi :p.i just remembered that legion shell we were in with that sketchy dude playing a female war. it was full of the same types of problems lol. sometimes you just cant get people to do things correctly.

its personally offensive when people joined my groups claiming to have veteran knowledge, only to turn around and completely ignore the role they were given.

everybody does mess up every now and then though, and there are some people that are actually talented at this game that arent given the chance because they themselves are afraid to join out of fear of being the *** up.

Buka why arent you shouting for delve/morta/uptala

Silly galka

Wut up buka! It didn't last long maybe a month lol. It got frustrating leading pugs & trying to build a delve sell so i just joined a shell. Got alot of wins & It was fun wile it lasted i must say now that the headaches are gone but at the time got more annoying than fun.
Leading pugs is a babysitting job so you cant really complain when ***goes wrong cuz its bound to happen. Which is the reason leaders have to be more careful who they get. Even with how easy delve is now people still make it harder than it needs to be and manage to fail.

i Lead carby pugs now D= its a headache few wins here and there and i got a shell going for the exclusive players who actually know how to delve~~

all this talk about not swapping cors and brd pld not needed. y dont we just go
mnk mnk sam drg mnk whm
mnk mnk mnk mnk mnk whm
mnk mnk schh sch brd mnk?
solves all the prob no buff no fuss

if the party someone ends up with after creating a delve, based on the leaders discretion, isnt good enough to win without swapping, then not swapping constantly is moronic. complaining about it is even worse. i know that i wouldnt need 8 songs and 4 rolls to be where i want to be in the midst of a delve run, but most DD's *** suck and even if that alli had 2 outside healers per party, it would still suck balls if the DD's were all terrible.

Why rotate if its not needed? Only reason a rotation happens is when/if your team needs to meet the requirements on a NM to be sufficient. Such as Acc or Att.

If a team or even pugs can run delve w/o rotations & do it in a timely fashion w/o any issues, then why rotate? Only thing rotating is going to do at that point is speed up a run by what 5 minutes or so and make people work harder for no reason. Since time is not a issue when clearing the fracture theres no reason to at all not to mention the over kill with Delve gear & weapons its absolute over kill & actually more prone to make a mistake if people *** up rotations.

As for pld: reason people say you dont need one is because they do it in efficient time where they could kill every monster on the way can still get there with 15-20 min left or just sleep/log the pulls and bring a brd for mage pt
This does not apply to everyone though

When next delve is released and w/e future content comes, yes rotations will be needed until we learn strats & attain new gear/weapons and not be at risk to fail.

Well this escalated quickly.

Long story short, if you suck, dont expect to get in another group.

I would hope a DD wanting to go do Delve as say MNK would have.. Oh I don't know ...

NOT 32% HASTE ON GEAR!
If you don't know the game mechanics on Capping gear haste, Magic haste, how dual wield affects 2 1handed DD's and TP return / delay caps / ja haste etc, then may I suggest going away, reading about it and then being the best you can be!

Simple gears to have as mnk -

PDT set - All AHable for the majority.
Thaumas Coat - If you can't beat NNI, you can't do Delve, or at least shouldn't.
24% haste if in Adoulin (as Ionis provides 2% gear haste this completely caps you to the 25.6% cap)
Multi attack where applicable.
NOT IN 4/5 Otronif gears cos it looks cool (its ugly as hell) because it's fast becoming lol Aurore armor and in my runs, you get kicked.

if you don't gear properly (and yes I check) you don't get in.

That said any DD that has Oats and parses 14% compared to another MNK that parses 26% - you won't come until you make some serious changes. The vast majority of gear for mnk is easy to get.

I have seen a rank 15 rogors MNK parse 17.5% and an Oats Mnk do 21% ish, I also took this same MNK to Ceizak and Foret (and we won both with extreme ease I might add).

gear is not always the major factor, but if you follow game mechanics, and gear accordingly, as best you can, you should win.

People beat Tojil with Rigors, if you still fail with Oatixers, with the 242 skill boost, and its because your DPS sucks...... and you're doing half the dmg the other mnks are doing, you need to re - evaluate yourself.


There are 2 kinds of players

Idiots
and Noobs


idiots are people who think their Pro and never improve.

Noobs are people who accept they're not perfect and Constantly try to improve and optimize their gear. I prefer playing with noobs than idiots, because a Noob can fix being a noob.

An idiot im afraid will always have a low IQ.

Well I have 4/5 Otronif with proper augments and Thaumas coat with correct buffs ahead of any other gear...

As for the AH -pdt gear, only a mollusca mantle is AHable and the rest of the good -pdt gear is r/ex. With a defending ring you could use shadow mantle instead of mollusca.

I'd love to see some low man delve boss videos, much more so than 18man 'quick' kills.

i want people who would be WILLING on my server -_-