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Official Benghazi Topic Till The Year 2018+
By Enuyasha 2013-05-18 01:25:11
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »Nine hours that supposedly was not enough time for an F-16 that has a top speed of over 1500 MPH to fly the 1000 miles from Aviano in Italy.
This is ignorance, first of all, yes the F-16s top speed is around that, but basically for it to reach that speed it has to be flying in optimum conditions and probably unarmed. But it can't sustain that speed for very long due to the fact you would be out of gas in about 300 miles. Max range without refueling at cruising speed is probably 2000 miles with fuel pods. Cruising speed for most F-16s is around 250-350 MPH. Flying at higher speeds cripples the range of that airplane, especially since you need those fuel pods (ie can't drop them).
Aviano to Libya in a scramble situation is definitely not realistic, it would probably take an hour to get the plane off the ground, (we don't have pilots on alert anymore) and for the fighter to get there in time, you would need a midair refueling, maybe 2, which in this situation, is impossible. Its just not feasible, the F-16s would have needed to be on station to be of any use. You do need a refueling for a 1000-mile 1-way trip unless you mean prior to its return which could not have been done over the Mediterranean. Even if I stipulate to a 1-hour waiting period plus minimum 250MPH, that is about 5 hours. Keep in mind that they didn't know they had X amount of hours even though i claim the Obama administration was watching in real time and knew everything that was going on to commit such an action. If we had them on alert and they were told all the people whom they would be protecting were of an unknown medical status, it'd be a different story. I won't debate military logistics further than that because I don't know anything about the subject lol...
ftfy! You're Welcome.
Also, One way why? Im pretty sure we dont want another Black Hawk Down situation. OR rather, im sure any sensible person wouldnt.
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2013-05-18 01:41:31
To put it simply, the F-16 is just not the right airplane for the job.
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-05-18 01:45:12
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »Nine hours that supposedly was not enough time for an F-16 that has a top speed of over 1500 MPH to fly the 1000 miles from Aviano in Italy.
This is ignorance, first of all, yes the F-16s top speed is around that, but basically for it to reach that speed it has to be flying in optimum conditions and probably unarmed. But it can't sustain that speed for very long due to the fact you would be out of gas in about 300 miles. Max range without refueling at cruising speed is probably 2000 miles with fuel pods. Cruising speed for most F-16s is around 250-350 MPH. Flying at higher speeds cripples the range of that airplane, especially since you need those fuel pods (ie can't drop them).
Aviano to Libya in a scramble situation is definitely not realistic, it would probably take an hour to get the plane off the ground, (we don't have pilots on alert anymore) and for the fighter to get there in time, you would need a midair refueling, maybe 2, which in this situation, is impossible. Its just not feasible, the F-16s would have needed to be on station to be of any use. You don't need a refueling for a 1000-mile 1-way trip unless you mean prior to its return whichcould be done over the Mediterranean. Even if I stipulate to a 1-hour waiting period plus minimum 250MPH, that is about 5 hours. Keep in mind that they didn't know they had X amount of hours. If we had them in mid-flight and they were told all the people whom they would be protecting were already dead, it'd be a different story. I won't debate military logistics further than that because I don't know much more about them, and because I know that those turn into less nerdy Kirk vs. Picard endless debates lol... Even if you did have F-16s present, exactly how were you planning on defending your embassy with it?
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By Enuyasha 2013-05-18 01:45:52
I raised that question, no response :(
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Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-05-18 01:45:58
What would be the purpose of sending plane like that over there? Serious question.
Edit: Beaten!
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2013-05-18 01:51:36
To kill the bad guys? A back to back guns only strafing run would have destroyed everything on the street without coming close to hitting the embassy. But they would have to have already been on station. Like I said, a scramble flight from Italy just isn't realistic.
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Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-05-18 01:54:34
Shoot em all and let god sort em out :/
Although I'm sure our government has ordered worse.
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2013-05-18 01:57:09
It wouldn't have even been a questionable order to declare everyone on the street at 1 AM during an attack to be a hostile.
By Enuyasha 2013-05-18 02:01:18
To kill the bad guys? A back to back guns only strafing run would have destroyed everything on the street without coming close to hitting the embassy. But they would have to have already been on station. Like I said, a scramble flight from Italy just isn't realistic. Even if they where on call a flight like that + a strafing run would be unrealistic also :< and, i guess, seeing as how they had already breached the embassy anyway too.
Did you also remember to put in Romney wanted to insult china on his first day? Also, heavy anti-China sentiments that would've had us in China,Iraq,and Afghanistan at the same time.
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2013-05-18 02:06:24
If boots on the ground called for a support airstrike from an AIRCAP, it would have happened. But I'm not aware of any embassies that have their own personal squadron of jets, especially in Africa.
Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-05-18 02:06:38
It wouldn't have even been a questionable order to declare everyone on the street at 1 AM during an attack to be a hostile. Yeah, at that particular time I can see that. I believe all the embassy employees were accounted for by then.
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By Fenrir.Terminus 2013-05-18 02:38:24
Clearly, when two layers of protection - host country and US forces - present at a location do not have the coordination or ability to stop a civilian(ish) ground attack and protect the life of an actual ambassador, there are definitely some problems. And for those of you that like to blame people, plenty of that for lots of people. But a mismanaged situation, tragic and stupid as it may be, doesn't mean very much militarily... because we do have the doctrine, training and equipment necessary to actually, y'know, actually fight a fight with less than a 10:1 firepower advantage. This is a failure of leadership to prepare, not a failure of an entire system.
Actual solutions to events like this don't typically involve firing 20mm rounds into crowds (within semi-urban areas, especially) at 6k rounds per minute from 500 feet above ground level, while traveling at 300knots or whatever. This applies even more in an isolated situation within a country with whom we're not at war. Oh yeah, after flying across the Mediterranean.
As far as Republicans vs Democrats in this situation... good grief. Even if actual responsibility for whatever went wrong could be narrowed down to a small group of people - doubt it - and even if each and every single one of those people were voted one way or the other - unlikely - then you'd still have to say that those people made tactical mistakes because they are Democrats/Republicans for that argument to mean anything. But... what if they were all left-handed? What if they all wore glasses? What if they all liked pizza? No. Political beliefs (anarchism or pacifism aside) wouldn't cause a person to fail or succeed in a position like this. Competence and experience and dedication to duty are individual traits.
The only political questions that (in my opinion) can be asked are whether or not there were appropriate resources available to do the job, and, has a sincere attempt been made to understand and explain what really happened? (Not whether or not should we have capital ships permanently stationed outside every port in the middle east, whether embassies should be equipped with tactical nukess, or any other ridiculous response to this level of threat.)
Even then... I really see this as "someone *** up" and not "omg this means that the entire party is bad and evil and stupid and incapable!!"
By Enuyasha 2013-05-18 02:48:12
Or in any what at all "OBAMA LET FOUR AMERICAN CITIZENS DIE AS THEY SCREEMED BLOODY MERCY FOR HELP AND HE LAUGHED AND THEN WENT TO BED!"
Bahamut.Jetacku
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By Bahamut.Jetacku 2013-05-18 06:42:24
So you all can stop bandying about misguided attempts at factual analysis....
http://www.factcheck.org/2012/10/benghazi-timeline/
I know some people like to use sources that aren't fact checked... mainly because it reinforces their presupposed notions of party culpability and reality.
So, from a site that exists to check facts, the facts.
Enjoy. wow, the people who try to blow this up can't even read the statements right... very informative link, thanks.
By Moonwalkerv 2013-05-18 08:09:07
Did I really just read a post about having a 'strafing run' in the streets of a foriegn country?
*** some of you americans have something in your heads, seriously.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-05-18 08:30:32
Strafing runs in the streets of foreign countries is an American pastime
Don't judge our culture! *** Australian bigots man sheesh
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby
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By Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby 2013-05-18 09:08:54
Bahamut.Refreshtwo said: »I spent 10-15 mins typing out stuff to Tenshibaby and my web browser crashed so your getting the the abridged version
there over all less human's dead having obama president then john mccain who still wants to be in iraq and attack syria end up setting off iran (john mccain words not mind) or mitt romney you end up selling the poor and dismantling health care and still end up in syria.
Now till the min president obama or president hillary clinton 2016 to 2024 start talking about why we must attack Iran! i know who the "lesser evil" is.
PS i do hope your a troll Tenshibaby or you need to start being more realistic.
Get help. Head trauma is no laughing matter.
As for whatever jet is used, a flyover would almost certainly disperse a crowd. A few passes from a low-flying jet can be pretty damn intimidating.
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby
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By Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby 2013-05-18 09:14:43
To kill the bad guys? A back to back guns only strafing run would have destroyed everything on the street without coming close to hitting the embassy. But they would have to have already been on station. Like I said, a scramble flight from Italy just isn't realistic.
Well there was this from Tripoli:
"From CBS News’ Sharyl Attkisson, the man who was the assistant to slain Ambassador Christopher Stevens, Gregory Hicks, says U.S. Special Forces in South Africa were told not to deploy to Libya in the hours following the attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi:
According to excerpts released Monday, Hicks told investigators that SOCAFRICA commander Lt. Col. Gibson and his team were on their way to board a C-130 from Tripoli for Benghazi prior to an attack on a second U.S. compound “when [Col. Gibson] got a phone call from SOCAFRICA which said, ‘you can’t go now, you don’t have the authority to go now.’ And so they missed the flight … They were told not to board the flight, so they missed it.”
No assistance arrived from the U.S. military outside of Libya during the hours that Americans were under attack or trapped inside compounds by hostile forces armed with rocket-propelled grenades, mortars and AK-47 rifles.
Hicks told congressional investigators that if the U.S. had quickly sent a military aircraft over Benghazi, it might have saved American lives. The U.S. Souda Bay Naval Base is an hour’s flight from Libya."
By Enuyasha 2013-05-18 09:21:58
Yea, but its not an intimidating factor to people with weapons that can knock it out of the sky. Cause you know, *** the police and logic and ***.
also "Might have" when enemy forces have already overun a compound and have weapons to disable rescue aircraft is not exactly a green light getter. Like i said, noone wants another Black Hawk Down situation if the effort is going to be futile anyway.
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby
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By Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby 2013-05-18 09:25:52
Did I really just read a post about having a 'strafing run' in the streets of a foriegn country?
*** some of you americans have something in your heads, seriously. Well, crikey! Sorry we can't be as civilized as the Libyans. It wouldn't be tolerant or respectful for us to disrupt their "spontaneous protest", right?
Ifrit.Arawn
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By Ifrit.Arawn 2013-05-18 09:30:58
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »Well, what I personally find to be a big deal is having thousands of Americans dead over a war for oil based on "intel" of weapons of mass destruction, of which there was none. That to me is kind of a big deal. There WERE WMD's. I know you fools think it has been decided fact that there were none, but there WERE.
WikiLeaks is one source of evidence:
An initial glance at the WikiLeaks war logs doesn’t reveal evidence of some massive WMD program by the Saddam Hussein regime — the Bush administration’s most (in)famous rationale for invading Iraq. But chemical weapons, especially, did not vanish from the Iraqi battlefield. Remnants of Saddam’s toxic arsenal, largely destroyed after the Gulf War, remained. Jihadists, insurgents and foreign (possibly Iranian) agitators turned to these stockpiles during the Iraq conflict — and may have brewed up their own deadly agents.
In August 2004, for instance, American forces surreptitiously purchased what they believed to be containers of liquid sulfur mustard, a toxic “blister agent” used as a chemical weapon since World War I. The troops tested the liquid, and “reported two positive results for blister.” The chemical was then “triple-sealed and transported to a secure site” outside their base. …
Nearly three years later, American troops were still finding WMD in the region. An armored Buffalo vehicle unearthed a cache of artillery shells “that was covered by sacks and leaves under an Iraqi Community Watch checkpoint. “The 155mm rounds are filled with an unknown liquid, and several of which are leaking a black tar-like substance.” Initial tests were inconclusive. But later, “the rounds tested positive for mustard.”
From the Houston Chronicle, a liberal paper:
So….We found 500 chemical weapons in Iraq since 2003, and more weapons of mass destruction are likely to be uncovered. No one on the right is surprised by this. We all knew Saddam had them. I suppose we could gloat until the cows come home and say “I told ya so,” but really, the left that called Bush a liar, just needs to apologize and then we need to move forward and GET IT DONE IN IRAQ.
If the Democratic leadership has any dignity left, they will begin helping us do that right now and stop fighting us to score political points. Don’t try and justify this somehow. This is solid proof that Saddam Hussein was lying (NOT BUSH) when he said all weapons had been destroyed, and it proves the weapons inspectors did not uncover these munitions. We gave Saddam ample opportunity to get rid of these and surrender and HE REFUSED. He knew the consequences.
I saw Al Sharpton on Bill O’ Reilly last night and he said that if this is true, then he will apologize to Bush. If he can do it, the rest of the Democrats can.
My advice to Democrats? Step up to the plate and show some integrity. THAT will get you elected more than any showboating and justifying.
http://www.factcheck.org/2008/02/no-wmds-in-iraq/
You are... so.... I mean this is laughable.
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-05-18 09:32:15
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »Did I really just read a post about having a 'strafing run' in the streets of a foriegn country?
*** some of you americans have something in your heads, seriously. Well, crikey! Sorry we can't be as civilized as the Syrians. It wouldn't be tolerant or respectful for us to disrupt their "spontaneous protest", right?
Syria =/= Libya
Bahamut.Sevvy
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By Bahamut.Sevvy 2013-05-18 09:34:01
I love how Tenshi hasn't really spoken about how the Benghazi emails were doctored by the right, IT MUST BE FAKE BECAUSE A CONSERVATIVE WOULD NEVER DO SUCH A THING. THEY ARE THE HIGHEST CLASS OF TRUTH AND HONOR!
Also its cute that Tenshi is +100 posts in 2 threads alone. You would think you would give up because most people regard you as a joke but yet you go on and on and on.
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby
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By Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby 2013-05-18 09:37:23
What is laughable is people who think factcheck is unassailable because of its name. Read up on your sources.
You are like the girl in this video:
YouTube Video Placeholder
ALSO: Your "factcheck" link is old. The WikiLeaks revelation was 2 years later.
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby
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By Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby 2013-05-18 09:37:56
Fixed, thx Kara. Early morning.
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By Enuyasha 2013-05-18 09:48:10
Chemial weapons are not WMDs...they are chemial weapons. We went in looking for nukes, we found no nukes, but we found chemical weapons he was using previously. This is not the same thing as "*** yea,there are WMDs" its "*** yea! we caught him breaking a treaty on weapons banned by said treaty!"
Again, we did not find WMDS,because chemical weapons are not WMDs.
Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-05-18 09:49:21
So if one place says it's true and the other says it's false... the one we want to believe is true?
Asura.Squal
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By Asura.Squal 2013-05-18 09:52:52
Chemial weapons are not WMDs...they are chemial weapons. We went in looking for nukes, we found no nukes, but we found chemical weapons he was using previously. This is not the same thing as "*** yea,there are WMDs" its "*** yea! we caught him breaking a treaty on weapons banned by said treaty!"
Again, we did not find WMDS,because chemical weapons are not WMDs.
How are chemical weapons not WMDs? They can kill a large amount of people in one fell swoop.
Definition according to lolwikipedia: " is a weapon that can kill and bring significant harm to a large number of humans (and other life forms) and/or cause great damage to man-made structures (e.g. buildings), natural structures (e.g. mountains), or the biosphere in general... it has come to distinguish large-scale weaponry of other technologies, such as chemical, biological, radiological, or nuclear."
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