Afania said:
That kinda locked DD2 pt slot to COR, lol.
I was more so referring to the concept of a "princess DD" and how it is flawed- and said "princess" may or may not even end up being the top DD in the party.
IiPunch - Monk Guide
iiPunch - Monk Guide
I was more so referring to the concept of a "princess DD" and how it is flawed- and said "princess" may or may not even end up being the top DD in the party.
people just like to exaggerate MNK's lower damage and whine about the boost update, a JA the job rarely used in the first place, and ignore the fact that it also got a good amount of damage on it's 119 weapons.
[+]
Afania said: »
DD RUN(with strong hybrid set), DD, DD COR, REMA BRD, Idris, healer is pretty damn hard to beat in terms of efficiency.
So again
Tank
DD
COR
BRD
GEO
WHM
It's expected that the COR is going to "DD", Savage Blade with that TP Bonus +1000 gun is pretty wicked. I especially like doing a 3 step double light / radiance with then being the middle step. RUN's usually go /DRK these days because it gives them a nice burst DPS option without sacrificing tanking ability.
Leviathan.Eloc said: »
So MNK is ok to bring, as long as you don't have to rely on them for damage. Good to know.
That's why I said,
Asura.Saevel said: »
Your asking your friends to carry you, and they might because they are your friends, but don't take that as an indication of actual ability.
They really digging themselves deeper into snowflake territory. I've tried fitting MNKs into stuff, giant waste of time because there is nothing they provide that justifies them in that slot. Blame SE for *** over H2H and Staff WS so badly.
Siren.Kyte said: »
Afania said:
That kinda locked DD2 pt slot to COR, lol.
I was more so referring to the concept of a "princess DD" and how it is flawed- and said "princess" may or may not even end up being the top DD in the party.
I said
Asura.Saevel said: »
The COR would probably end up out damaging the MNK if they could go full on.
COR's are now expected to be capable of DDing because rolls last a long *** time. RUN tanks can DD if the situation arises, PLD's not so much. Hell I'm seeing BRD's go /NIN and get into the mix nowadays. Everything else is standard support and FFXI has ~always~ been about layering support on top of a few people. Removing the BRD, COR or GEO from that group in place of another DD would be a huge drop in damage. When we say "DD" we are referring to someone who's primary purpose is to kill stuff. This is why we separate DD's into two categories, Heavy DD's and Utility DD's. Heavy DD's focus almost exclusively on killing stuff, SAM, WAR, DRK, DRG for example. Utility DD's kill stuff but provide some form of party support like healing, crowd control, buffing, enfeebles, moar lootz, hate control, and so forth. Those are BLU/DNC/NIN/THF. COR is both support and a utility DD, RUN is a tank and a utility DD, RNG is a ranged heavy DD.
Which leaves MNK sitting on it's hands because it doesn't provide nearly enough damage to be a heavy DD nor does it even provide enough damage to be a utility DD. Any situation that would involved a MNK would invariable involve charity.
I was replying to this:
because it's idiotic to think that someone who wants to use said setup is a necessarily a diva, and there's a degree of job flexibility (albeit not large) even when working within those parameters.
and for the record: I don't need someone to explain to me the concept of a "utility DD", lol. Your consistent tendency towards over-explanations in an effort to condescend do nothing to support your point, and undermines it when you actually have something valid to say.
Eriyl said:
This is -not- a damn "typical" 6 man party. *** ridiculous.
This is a pathetic dd thinks he's too damn good to play with other people party.
It's an -ideal- 6 man. Not Average. Not typical. not standard. not whatever buzzword you want to use.
This is a pathetic dd thinks he's too damn good to play with other people party.
It's an -ideal- 6 man. Not Average. Not typical. not standard. not whatever buzzword you want to use.
because it's idiotic to think that someone who wants to use said setup is a necessarily a diva, and there's a degree of job flexibility (albeit not large) even when working within those parameters.
and for the record: I don't need someone to explain to me the concept of a "utility DD", lol. Your consistent tendency towards over-explanations in an effort to condescend do nothing to support your point, and undermines it when you actually have something valid to say.
Siren.Kyte said: »
because it's idiotic to think that someone who wants to use said setup is a necessarily a diva, and there's a degree of job flexibility (albeit not large) even when working within those parameters.
I have him blocked.
Siren.Kyte said: »
I was replying to this:
because it's idiotic to think that someone who wants to use said setup is a necessarily a diva, and there's a degree of job flexibility (albeit not large) even when working within those parameters.
and for the record: I don't need someone to explain to me the concept of a "utility DD", lol. Your consistent tendency towards over-explanations in an effort to condescend do nothing to support your point, and undermine it when you actually have something valid to say.
Eriyl said:
This is -not- a damn "typical" 6 man party. *** ridiculous.
This is a pathetic dd thinks he's too damn good to play with other people party.
It's an -ideal- 6 man. Not Average. Not typical. not standard. not whatever buzzword you want to use.
This is a pathetic dd thinks he's too damn good to play with other people party.
It's an -ideal- 6 man. Not Average. Not typical. not standard. not whatever buzzword you want to use.
because it's idiotic to think that someone who wants to use said setup is a necessarily a diva, and there's a degree of job flexibility (albeit not large) even when working within those parameters.
and for the record: I don't need someone to explain to me the concept of a "utility DD", lol. Your consistent tendency towards over-explanations in an effort to condescend do nothing to support your point, and undermine it when you actually have something valid to say.
I over explain because these idiots would otherwise twist things out of context or attempt to define themselves a "win". See what happened when I just said "COR" instead of "DD COR". As for your or anyone else's feelings, I don't care. Rational arguments stand on their own merits and that is all that matters. Emotional reasoning and popularity being "right" is why Allahakzam became a ghost town.
Asura.Saevel said: »
Everything else is standard support and FFXI has ~always~ been about layering support on top of a few people.
Pretty much this, even in alliances. If you build a melee alliance with tank pt x1, DD pt x2, unless you jump parties for buff jobs, there would be 4 DD slots with dedicated COR BRD GEO WHM, in a 14 to 18 people alliance.
Any extra slots in the alliance often belongs to extra GEO for fade/frailty/wilt/vex etc, instead of giving it to underbuffed DDs.
Basically, compare with not-DD jobs, there aren't enough slots for DD. Thus all the argument about MNK since the DD slot competition is real.
Ramuh.Austar said: »
people just like to exaggerate MNK's lower damage and whine about the boost update, a JA the job rarely used in the first place, and ignore the fact that it also got a good amount of damage on it's 119 weapons.
I definitely agree, MNK is fine if you play with a social shell or PUG. A well geared MNK is still very competitive to avg DD. It's just that when elite groups start pushing VD clear speed and fighting for that DD slot, whoever wins parse often gets it.
Despite I don't quite agree with such mindset, it's just the realistic side of FFXI.
Afania said: »
A well geared MNK is still very competitive to avg DD.
It's not though because you need to assume the same gear level for both. A well geared MNK is not competitive with a well geared other-DD, I wasn't exaggerating about the 30~40% damage difference.
Assuming a group like this
DD
MNK
DD COR
You can expect a damage split of
45 DD
30 MNK
25 COR
You would then say "see it's only 15% behind", which would be wrong. It's actually 45/30 = 50% behind. Replacing the DD with the MNK would dramatically lower the parties damage. There is no good reason to do this, other then giving a friend charity and letting them come MNK once instead of GEO/BRD/WHM like you normally do. This is why we keep saying MNK's H2H WS damage needs dramatically increased, the simplest way would be to make VS transfer fTP and start at 1.6. It would raise their WS damage by nearly 40% and close that 30~50% gap. They still wouldn't be better then pure DD's but close enough that their utility would offset the difference, like BLU/DNC/THF/NIN does.
You've got that fraction backwards; 30 is 33% behind 45.
[+]
The DD is dealing 50% more damage then the MNK and this is a discussion about removing that DD with the reasoning of "MNK is good enough".
@Kyte,
This is why I over explain things, even the smallest item left out will have someone play with definitions.
@Kyte,
This is why I over explain things, even the smallest item left out will have someone play with definitions.
Yes, but behind and ahead are two different words with two different percentages, and you mixed them up. Something being 50% behind is a lot worse than something being 33% behind.
Asura.Saevel said: »
This is why I over explain things, even the smallest item left out will have someone play with definitions.
No, you do it to overwhelm anyone even considering wasting their time debating you. This isn't a new technique.
[+]
Asking as non-MNK because I am curious.. What's the maximum theoretical Subtle Blow you guys can get?
If it's something extreme like 80%+, maybe that should be taken into account as well when building parties. I've always been of the opinion that the majority of the playerbase ignores TPFeed far too often.
Heck, recently when 2boxing (BST+BLM,) I've taken to nerfing my pet's acc/atk/DA between Readies to reduce my TPFeed, and NMs (ones that pet can miss at least) are popping out less than half the number of TP moves which makes things far FAR easier to deal with.
It could be a pretty big selling point if MNK can reach the point where they are nearly "TP Free" damage.
If it's something extreme like 80%+, maybe that should be taken into account as well when building parties. I've always been of the opinion that the majority of the playerbase ignores TPFeed far too often.
Heck, recently when 2boxing (BST+BLM,) I've taken to nerfing my pet's acc/atk/DA between Readies to reduce my TPFeed, and NMs (ones that pet can miss at least) are popping out less than half the number of TP moves which makes things far FAR easier to deal with.
It could be a pretty big selling point if MNK can reach the point where they are nearly "TP Free" damage.
Nyarlko said: »
Asking as non-MNK because I am curious.. What's the maximum theoretical Subtle Blow you guys can get?
If it's something extreme like 80%+, maybe that should be taken into account as well when building parties. I've always been of the opinion that the majority of the playerbase ignores TPFeed far too often.
If it's something extreme like 80%+, maybe that should be taken into account as well when building parties. I've always been of the opinion that the majority of the playerbase ignores TPFeed far too often.
The max for MNK is 75%, plus you also get Penance (which lowers enemy gain by 35% with max merits and the relic head) to lower feed further.
I'm not sure how big of an advantage MNK has in terms of dAGI, but the Kendatsuba set also has above average agility.
lol that's rich, the biggest douchebag on ah blocked me. Guess he got tired of being wrong every time.
I did wonder why he never replied about how fail new dynamis is. Now I know.
I did wonder why he never replied about how fail new dynamis is. Now I know.
Siren.Kyte said: »
Nyarlko said: »
Asking as non-MNK because I am curious.. What's the maximum theoretical Subtle Blow you guys can get?
If it's something extreme like 80%+, maybe that should be taken into account as well when building parties. I've always been of the opinion that the majority of the playerbase ignores TPFeed far too often.
If it's something extreme like 80%+, maybe that should be taken into account as well when building parties. I've always been of the opinion that the majority of the playerbase ignores TPFeed far too often.
The max for MNK is 75%, plus you also get Penance (which lowers enemy gain by 35% with max merits and the relic head) to lower feed further.
What's the base/max durations on Penance? Chi Blast is on a 3min CD, which makes it a bit rough to count on.. Assuming that 2x MNKs can keep it up fulltime tho, a total TPFeed of 16.25% sounds like it could be rather attractive in certain fights.
Assuming an avg non-MNK melee has SB+20, which feels rather generous, and being able to fulltime the SB+83.75, it would mean that one player is putting out the TPFeed of nearly FIVE MNKs! Extending to 2x DDs for a SC, their TPFeed would be equal to ~TEN MNKs..
Which means that, outside of NMs with innate Regain, replacing those 2x DDs with 2x MNKs would result in ~1/5th the number of TP Moves being used. That's a bloody huge difference which can change the fight to allow for more than a single strategy being viable.
Main downside to this as a sales point is the stupid HP Scaling in Geas Fete makes most groups focus on killspeed over survivability.
It's 1:40, so yeah if you want to fulltime it you need 2 MNKs.
If you're using Shijin Spiral for skillchains, that also adds a 50/tic plague effect.
If you're using Shijin Spiral for skillchains, that also adds a 50/tic plague effect.
Max duration is 100 seconds, so 2 MNKs can easily keep it up on most single targets.
Don't bother suggesting MNK is usable though, it's been brought up a dozen times and the same autists insist that amount of TP never matters more than damage every time. Just give it a try yourself, the difference in TP is extremely noticable.
Don't bother suggesting MNK is usable though, it's been brought up a dozen times and the same autists insist that amount of TP never matters more than damage every time. Just give it a try yourself, the difference in TP is extremely noticable.
[+]
That extra plague would help, but hard to napkin math out for me. It's good to know that 2x MNKs = full-time floored TPFeed at least though. ^^
I guess it's a matter of perspective. If you are part of a solid ls with BIS teams who can easily splatter everything in the game, then yeah, TPFeed probably doesn't even register as an issue for you.
If you are an average player, with an average ls, and especially if you normally run with an average WHM.. then minimizing TPFeed could increase your win percentage (even if it takes a bit longer to get one) and reduce your poor WHM's stress to a reasonable level. You'd be surprised how unscary some things are when your WHM actually has time to toss out cures + -nas on everyone between mob TP moves. XD
BTW, I'm the guy who discovered and is currently advocating a strat for this month's AmbuV1 where you lock down the boss into spells/melee-onry by minimizing TPFeed + BST leech jug pet, so I've been thinking about TP a lot recently. XD It may take a bit longer than zombietankzergs, but should be a safer alternative and even not-so-awesomely-geared players on odd jobs should be able to pull it off (as long as they can follow instructions and hit accuracy requirements.)
I guess it's a matter of perspective. If you are part of a solid ls with BIS teams who can easily splatter everything in the game, then yeah, TPFeed probably doesn't even register as an issue for you.
If you are an average player, with an average ls, and especially if you normally run with an average WHM.. then minimizing TPFeed could increase your win percentage (even if it takes a bit longer to get one) and reduce your poor WHM's stress to a reasonable level. You'd be surprised how unscary some things are when your WHM actually has time to toss out cures + -nas on everyone between mob TP moves. XD
BTW, I'm the guy who discovered and is currently advocating a strat for this month's AmbuV1 where you lock down the boss into spells/melee-onry by minimizing TPFeed + BST leech jug pet, so I've been thinking about TP a lot recently. XD It may take a bit longer than zombietankzergs, but should be a safer alternative and even not-so-awesomely-geared players on odd jobs should be able to pull it off (as long as they can follow instructions and hit accuracy requirements.)
Mostly, it is just unfortunate when any gloss over MNK's bottom of the barrel damage, grasping at any straw left in reach.
The August Downdate flattened more than just Boost, which, if any MNKs used it in the past, it is absolutely unusable now.
The increase to the base damage of H2H weapons did not make MNK competitive and was a waste of SE's time and our money.
Everything about MNK, in its current state, is handicapped:
Is that everything? From A to Z, the job trips over itself. It is sad. No one likes it this way. I, personally, hate it. But that doesn't change the reality of the job's fundamental flaws. Would increasing H2H weapon skill damage make the job more competitive? Sure. Would the job benefit from more than that to reduce the likelihood of it falling behind again? Absolutely.
Of course, each should play how they want. But don't lie to yourselves or to others. It is as delusional to hope for adjustments as it is to believe it isn't as bad as it is. It is the worst.
Does anyone make sure that before week's end, they have used every trust available simply because they are all options? The smart player would select the trusts that work best, never calling those that are functionally less effective than other available options.
Lastly, insulting others and/or using the term "autists" to describe anyone that disagrees with one's point of view is tired and embarrassing. Please embrace a better understanding and a better vocabulary.
The August Downdate flattened more than just Boost, which, if any MNKs used it in the past, it is absolutely unusable now.
The increase to the base damage of H2H weapons did not make MNK competitive and was a waste of SE's time and our money.
Everything about MNK, in its current state, is handicapped:
Relic and Empyrean H2H weapons have never worked properly if compared to all other weapons of these categories.
H2H weapon skills suffer useless TP bonuses, redundant elements, low modifiers and/or no ftp transfer.
ilvl, as a system, requires gear to push a player forward. The lack of a grip or off-hand really hampers MNK.
Speaking of grips and off-hands, H2H is the only weapon class with the accuracy cap of a two-hander but the adverse characteristics of dual-wielding-like delay/tp mechanics.
ilvl has also diluted its max HP superiority. At most, it will have 300HP more than its competitors. Some of its stiffest competitors (NIN, RUN, BLU) are only 60HP behind MNK. WAR is only 120HP behind MNK. DRK gets Drain III, with a duration and recast of 3min. NIN can further protect its HP via ninjutsu, RUN gets Phalanx, Foil and numerous AOE job abilities, and BLU gets its unique spell and point system.
It's only AOE buff is locked behind merits with a cooldown of 10 minutes. It lasts 3min. Maintaining this effect requires multiple MNKs or CORs.
Subtle blow was intended as a means for non-two-handers to be competitive in their TP feed per weapon skill cycle. This is one of MNK's very few exploitable features, but all but requires only MNKs be used. Adding more and/or other DDs dilutes this feature into non-existence, making MNK incapable of elevating a party to become more than the sum of its parts.
Other job abilities are handicapped indirectly by short durations (Focus, Dodge) further diluted by forced delays, or directly by other penalties (Counterstance, Impetus, Boost, Formless Strikes). Compare to Hasso/Seigan, whose penalties are to functions not even inherent to the job, or Warcry, which has no penalty at all and assists the whole party.
Counter doesn't give the MNK TP (but does give the enemy TP) and is tripped up by an accuracy check.
Guard is a strange mix of Shield Block and Parry, with more shared negatives than positives of both.
What's left? Oh yeah, its WTF Gift Table, which is tied to Guard, Subtle Blow and Martial Arts, all of which are hollow bunnies at best, trojan horses at worst.
Is that everything? From A to Z, the job trips over itself. It is sad. No one likes it this way. I, personally, hate it. But that doesn't change the reality of the job's fundamental flaws. Would increasing H2H weapon skill damage make the job more competitive? Sure. Would the job benefit from more than that to reduce the likelihood of it falling behind again? Absolutely.
Of course, each should play how they want. But don't lie to yourselves or to others. It is as delusional to hope for adjustments as it is to believe it isn't as bad as it is. It is the worst.
Does anyone make sure that before week's end, they have used every trust available simply because they are all options? The smart player would select the trusts that work best, never calling those that are functionally less effective than other available options.
Lastly, insulting others and/or using the term "autists" to describe anyone that disagrees with one's point of view is tired and embarrassing. Please embrace a better understanding and a better vocabulary.
[+]
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
Lastly, insulting others and/or using the term "autists" to describe anyone that disagrees with one's point of view is tired and embarrassing. Please embrace a better understanding and a better vocabulary.
I've done some serious gaming with actual autistic players, and they were consistently at the top of the parse charts and kicked more *** than anyone else I've known.. Was just occasionally painful to have 'em on Vent. XD
Never understood why "autistic" variants are used as insults among us gamers.. I mean, isn't it a given that every single "FFXI player" has a tendency towards addiction and some measurable degree of OCD? :D
Nyarlko said: »
I mean, isn't it a given that every single "FFXI player" has a tendency towards addiction and some measurable degree of OCD? :D
If not FFXI players, then certainly FFXIAH readers. :)
Everyone that plays this game still has mental issues, but they make themselves feel better by going "hey he has /more/ issues"
[+]
Asura.Eiryl said: »
Everyone that plays this game still has mental issues, but they make themselves feel better by going "hey he has /more/ issues"
That's what our President is for, not our fellow players.
Asura.Saevel said: »
I have him blocked.
He blocks everyone who doesn't conform to his world view...
Building his own echo chamber!
Nyarlko said: »
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
Lastly, insulting others and/or using the term "autists" to describe anyone that disagrees with one's point of view is tired and embarrassing. Please embrace a better understanding and a better vocabulary.
I've done some serious gaming with actual autistic players, and they were consistently at the top of the parse charts and kicked more *** than anyone else I've known.. Was just occasionally painful to have 'em on Vent. XD
Never understood why "autistic" variants are used as insults among us gamers.. I mean, isn't it a given that every single "FFXI player" has a tendency towards addiction and some measurable degree of OCD? :D
Gamers tend to obsess over details instead of looking at the big big picture...monk isn't the only job in the game.
I don't know if you have OCD maybe too much time of your hands ?
As far as Autism there is a spectrum of Autism. Some are really good at math which would explain why. Instead of playing FFXI they spend hours crunching numbers to find a 0.23% chance of doing more WS DMG on Bubbly Bernie.
I'm not saying you guys have Autism you just act like you do...
Autism Spectrum Disorder:
Social skills present the most challenges for individuals with Autism Spectrum Disorder. This leads to problems with friendships, romantic relationships, daily living, and vocational success.[33] Marriages are less common for those with ASD. Many of these challenges are linked to their atypical patterns of behavior and communication.
Explains the obsession with Monk.
This also: It is also common for individuals with ASD to communicate strong interest in a specific topic, speaking in lesson-like monologues about their passion instead of enabling reciprocal communication with whomever they are speaking to.[35] What seems as self-involvement or indifference toward others stems from a struggle to realize or remember that other people have their own personalities, perspectives, and interests
You have just been ultimate level 100 trolled
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