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 Fenrir.Motenten
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2013-05-11 21:28:17
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A somewhat more complete analysis of Shijin Spiral vs Asuran Fists with the new weapons.

Primary weapon: Rigor Baghnakhs

Target: Level 100 Chapuli, so that accuracy won't come into play at all. No def down.
Food: RCB
Hume mnk/war, Berserk active, Impetus active
Note that even with this, cRatio is only ~1.75, so not hitting attack cap.

Gear selection: Any AH gear is fine; one set excluding higher end gear (eg: NNI/Salvage+1/Toci's/rare Meebles drops (buyable is fine)/Legion), one that includes them. All Bayld and Delve gear is on the table, except for drops from the top bosses. No augmented gear in the restricted gear sets; will allow full augmentation in the unrestricted gear sets.

Note: TP sets were identical, but not optimized. Since TP doesn't affect damage for either weaponskill, not concerned with that.


No NNI/Salvage+1/Toci/Meeble
Code
Shijin:                  Asuran:         
                                         
Potestas                 Potestas        
Thurandaut               Nemetona        
Justiciar's              Justiciar's     
Bladeborn                Bladeborn       
Steelflash               Ghillie +1      
Manibozho                Tantra +2       
Thurandaut               Melee +2        
Rajas                    Pyrosoul           
Epona                    Pyrosoul          
Atheling                 Vimukti  
Caudata                  Caudata         
Manibozho                Manibozho         
Melee +2                 Tantra +2       

Damage: 3359             Damage: 3109
DPS: 417.434             DPS: 406.771

@1/5 merits:
Damage: 3141             Damage: 3109
DPS: 408.145             DPS: 406.771

Oatixur and 5/5:
Damage: 3968             Damage: 3943
DPS: 480.203             DPS: 483.130


So at the lower end of the gear scale, things are very close. For someone contemplating just opening up Shijin with 1/5, Asuran provides nearly identical DPS. By the time you factor in Oatixur, Asuran matches or beats Shijin, even at 5/5.


Gear unrestricted, but no Delve augments
Code
Shijin:                  Asuran:         
                                         
Potestas                 Potestas        
Thurandaut               Nemetona        
Justiciar's              Justiciar's     
Bladeborn                Bladeborn       
Steelflash               Ghillie +1      
Toci's Harness           Thurandaut     
Thurandaut               Melee +2        
Rajas                    Pyrosoul           
Epona                    Pyrosoul          
Atheling                 Vimukti  
Wanion                   Caudata         
Manibozho                Manibozho         
Omodaka                  Tenryu +1 Aug      

Damage: 3441             Damage: 3159
DPS: 420.940             DPS: 408.919

Oatixur and 5/5:
Damage: 4064             Damage: 4001
DPS: 484.920             DPS: 485.515


At the higher end, Shijin has a few options for improvement, while Asuran really doesn't. Basically, Asuran doesn't really get better beyond what you can get at the basic gear level, other than Omodaka feet or the Tenryu+1 augmented feet.

On the other hand, it still scales up very well when you switch to Oatixur, putting it right on par with 5/5 Shijin.



Gear unrestricted, full augments
Code
Shijin:                  Asuran:         
                                         
Potestas                 Potestas        
Manibozho Rank15         Manibozho Rank15        
Justiciar's              Justiciar's     
Bladeborn                Bladeborn       
Steelflash               Ghillie +1      
Manibozho Rank15         Manibozho Rank15
Thurandaut               Melee +2        
Rajas                    Pyrosoul           
Epona                    Pyrosoul          
Atheling                 Vimukti  
Prosilio                 Caudata         
Manibozho Rank15         Manibozho Rank15         
Manibozho Rank15         Manibozho Rank15      

Damage: 3643             Damage: 3307
DPS: 429.568             DPS: 415.238

Oatixur and 5/5 (note: had to bump up to level 102 Chapuli, as this hits the attack cap on the level 100's):
Damage: 4008             Damage: 3902
DPS: 461.331             DPS: 460.853


In this case, the obvious upgrades are the full rank 15 augmented versions of all the Manibozho pieces aside from the hands. At 60 million per piece, quite an investment.

For Rigors, the gap widens ever so slightly with this change, in favor of Shijin. Oatixur narrows it again, though this time Shijin holds onto a tiny edge over Asuran.



So overall there are several points where Asuran matches Shijin, and several points where Shijin maintains a small lead. If you get ahold of Oatixur, the difference between them is negligible regardless of the gear level. With Rigor, the higher your gear level, the more Shijin will tend to edge Asuran out.

And obviously, if a skillchain is available, use whichever is appropriate.
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-05-11 21:34:24
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When Smite is unlockable MNK will have access to three weaponskills with non-overlapping level 2 proprties + level 3

Asuran - Gravitation
Shijin - Fusion
Smite - Fragmentation / Light

With the high damage weapons these weapon skills will all be hovering in a small range so you don't really lose an extreme amount of damage by switching from the strongest to one of the others and you have the option of chaining with pretty much any job in the game

(If you're in a MNK Alliance you could do Asuran Smite Shijin Smite for extra lulz)
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 Sylph.Krsone
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By Sylph.Krsone 2013-05-11 21:47:46
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I thought you was telling me earlier in your BR2 run during the first 3-4 mobs flies/puddings/gobs that because of having few gear slots unlocked using rigor/asuran seemed to beat what shijin was doing and prob what 99 vere smite could do too. This I would believe, although eventually 99 vere only users will prob go back to using smite at the start still after they update the weapons and spharai users possibly asuran until more gear is unlocked then probably shijin.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2013-05-11 21:51:27
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They were performing pretty similar after gear unlock, but yea, prior to dex cell, Asuran hands down
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By Sylph.Krsone 2013-05-11 21:52:05
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Ya I didnt realise you was stretching the idea to Adoulin content too, interesting anyways.
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2013-05-11 21:57:07
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I think by the next set of new weps, and provided they stick to their word, it'll probably be Asuran/Spiral Impetus down, pending on SC options, Vsmite Impetus up
 Quetzalcoatl.Nishida
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By Quetzalcoatl.Nishida 2013-05-11 22:52:24
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Fenrir.Motenten said: »
Here's my current (minor) goal set for Delve:

ItemSet 300608

With rank 2 acc on Rigor, and rank 2 att on both Manibohzo pieces, that's capped accuracy without sushi/pizza/Focus/Aggressor/outside buffs vs fodder Delve mobs. I figure Focus/Aggressor (and maybe Hunter's/Madrigal) should be enough to stay capped on the non-super-evasive NM/boss mobs, and allow eating pure attack food (eg: RCBs).

With this set, what non-NNI/Salv2 boots could replace usu feet? Also, Thurandaut Chapeau? Seems strange. I like the gearset, though. Are we back at the point where accuracy trumps stats like Double/Triple Attack? If so I may work towards this set for myself as a means to do well in Delve w/o NNI/Salv2 gear.
 Fenrir.Motenten
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2013-05-12 01:53:48
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Accuracy's value depends on the situation and buffs on hand, and what food you want to combine it with. There's a lot of accuracy in that set just to be allowed to eat meat, but RCB gives you 7 str and 100 attack over pizza (never mind sushi), so it seems like a fair tradeoff.

As for other boot options.... Athos, maybe? 10 accuracy and 3% haste. Or augmented Manibozho, with 4% haste, 2% DA, and 4 accuracy from a couple augment ranks, along with 20 attack.

Neither is quite up to the accuracy cutoff I'd like, but both are at least somewhat workable.
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By pchan 2013-05-12 02:10:27
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Fenrir.Sylow said: »
When Smite is unlockable MNK will have access to three weaponskills with non-overlapping level 2 proprties + level 3

Asuran - Gravitation
Shijin - Fusion
Smite - Fragmentation / Light

With the high damage weapons these weapon skills will all be hovering in a small range so you don't really lose an extreme amount of damage by switching from the strongest to one of the others and you have the option of chaining with pretty much any job in the game

(If you're in a MNK Alliance you could do Asuran Smite Shijin Smite for extra lulz)

Pretty sure victory smite will rape because SE decided to screw shijin by not allowing dex augment but str instead. On the high acc build gear you would use on delve bosses, you are looking at 4/5 manibozho so 40 free str. While this str equals to a 25% mod for all WSs because you won't be capping fstr, it ends up being a 85% mod for victory smite.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-05-12 02:55:20
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I mean it's hard to say what they'll add gear-wise before they implement RME changes
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By pchan 2013-05-12 03:29:54
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Actually after playing with the spreadsheet it's not different. VS will be on par with SS. It's good new for me as this means me and mdk are going to skillchain again ! And all the accuracy considerations could go to waste soon as SE has announced that they will implement the new dex/acc ratio conversion next VU for 1 handed DDs. So we will gain like 40 acc.
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 Sylph.Hitetsu
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By Sylph.Hitetsu 2013-05-12 05:27:20
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Anyone know how bad the drop rate is on KSNM's and HQ Kings for BB Items?

Would it be worthwhile me simply spamming the KSNM? Or is the drop rate so low that it's not worth even considering?

Should I go out and get some HQ pops instead?


I Ctrl+F'd the first page in hopes I'd find a note about how best to try for BB, but nada (not surprising, it's not really something you'd expect in a guide).
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-05-12 05:29:46
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Out of about a dozen KS99 wyrms I've seen 3 beards. Not sure if my experiences line up with others or not, but yea. KB's never been generous with tongues in my experience either. Worth noting that I have horrendous luck so take it with a grain of salt
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By Fenrir.Jinjo 2013-05-12 05:31:47
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If you have the seals, you should probably use them. Drop rate has to be about 20-25%

If you don't, your best bet is probably shouting to buy the item from others (or buy the HQ pop yourself). What you shouldn't do is buy NQ pops hoping for a HQ drop for an item.
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 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-05-12 05:34:29
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honestly probably more cost effective just to buy from a merc if you can't get it from ks99. HQ pops are still fairly pricey and you aren't guaranteed to get one, whereas you can buy a full set of BB items for less than the cost of a single HQ pop if you find the right seller
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By Sylph.Hitetsu 2013-05-12 05:38:54
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Much appreciated guys! :D

I have about 500 seals, just chilling with Shami (didn't wanna spend them in case I took up mnk!), so I'll give those a few shots :D
 Phoenix.Tsuekasa
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By Phoenix.Tsuekasa 2013-05-12 10:50:58
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Formless Strikes 3
Invigorate 5
Penance 2

This is my current Merit II abilites. I'm thinking of increasing Penance to 3 or 4 but hate to give up much in Formless Strikes, unless just having 1 merit in it is good enough for most situations where it could be needed.

Tend to do a lot of soloing so Invigorate is nice and also useful in situations where the white mage is more focused on the tanks and I can give myself a fast heal that does an extra 800 points over time.
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By Sylph.Krsone 2013-05-12 11:29:49
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5/5 Penance 5/5 Formless, what are you soloing as monk that curing waltz isnt taking care of? Eventually if you lvl thf too most of the stuff that comes to mind someone would want to solo, thf/dnc would be a better option anyway.

Phoenix.Tsuekasa said: »
Invigorate is also useful in situations where the white mage is more focused on the tanks and I can give myself a fast heal that does an extra 800 points over time.


"Fast heal" in group situations useful yes however the invigorate shouldnt really be helping you much. More often than not in group situations you may already have a stronger regen up too when you want to use chakra anyway.
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By Odin.Volane 2013-05-12 11:40:21
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Gear not being an issue, rigor str path and 1/5 shijin:

Would AF actually be better then? I assume all the recent calculations were with 5/5, so i thought I'd ask.
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By Fenrir.Deno 2013-05-12 13:16:14
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So just got my Mani brais, presuming i'll be using them for both TP and WS, which path should I be doing? I feel like B would be best but A looks good, especially with Vsmite unlock coming...
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-05-12 13:18:18
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Manibozho path B is for ranged jobs.
 Fenrir.Deno
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By Fenrir.Deno 2013-05-12 13:20:20
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Oh ***, I don't know why I expected it to be the same as H2H augments... Thanks lol
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By Fenrir.Camiie 2013-05-12 13:24:24
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Fenrir.Deno said: »
Oh ***, I don't know why I expected it to be the same as H2H augments... Thanks lol

I just can't leave you alone for a second, can I?
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 Fenrir.Motenten
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2013-05-12 14:30:11
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@Tsuekasa:

I currently have Penance/Formless, and I often miss Invigorate. None of the whms I know ever use Regen except in highly specific situations. A whm can get a Cure IV's worth of regen for the MP cost of a Cure IV, but without the MP recovery of AF3+2 pants, so effectively costing almost twice as much for a given amount of HP healed. Just not worth the effort for such a short duration spell. (It's a very different story for sch, though.)

Invigorate is useful most of the time (and would be much appreciated in the craziness of Delve farm runs), whereas Formless Strikes is only useful in a handful of situations (though it is -very- useful in those situations). Invigorate is only somewhat useful without raising it to 4-5 merits; Formless is at least functional with one merit, but is certainly better with more. There's no real 'perfect' answer, but honestly I don't think I could argue for any major changes in your current setup.

@Volane: Asuran should be roughly on par with or better than Shijin at 1/5. Both are useful.
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By pchan 2013-05-12 19:11:10
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I use formless strike and spam the matamata delve NM for airlixirs/+1 in low man (can be done with 2 chars and can be spammed non stop with 2 MNKs, 1 BRD, 1 WHM). One single monk using formless strike at the right time will kill the NM in 30sec for ~6 airlixirs with up to four +1. I'm capped on manibazho legs and rigor @ rank 15 so far ! It's definitely a must have. FS used to be very handy in skirmish against ombrils and acuex (cirdas dropped the H2H), also used to be handy to farm alexandrite in salvage on cerberus boss. I also used it a lot on PLD NMs like when we farmed ADL pops. Invigorate is mostly for solo. Everyone and their sister has a WHM mule nowadays.
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2013-05-12 19:19:53
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Interesting. Mnk/nin? or you go mnk/war for that? Wouldn't mind capping legs and h2h if I can do it for free.
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By Phoenix.Dramatica 2013-05-12 19:50:05
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MNK/WAR, tried it earlier and it was very easy. Just make sure you put buffs on before the dmg mode shift, you will need as much time as you can get. Pchan do you know if it's a static number of TP moves before the DMG dealt caps out?
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2013-05-12 19:57:12
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Probably better off selling the airlixirs for gil while the price is still good, then swapping over to capping ***when you have all the money you need.
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By pchan 2013-05-12 20:01:00
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care to remind me what money is useful for again ? Inbefore relics ! I'm using money for sushi lol. No point in stacking.
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By pchan 2013-05-12 20:05:34
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Phoenix.Dramatica said: »
MNK/WAR, tried it earlier and it was very easy. Just make sure you put buffs on before the dmg mode shift, you will need as much time as you can get. Pchan do you know if it's a static number of TP moves before the DMG dealt caps out?

It works 100% with the following strat : have monks TP with no att food or minuets. When you hit for 1 damage start using impetus, berserk focus and agressor. When the NM does the next tp move do formless strike and it's dead a few seconds after [~30k damage per hit ; can also have your whm do holy/II for 99999 lolz). I'm not sure which #tp it is because honestly it doesn't matter. Be careful about attack buffs because it seems that with double minuet you don't hit for 1s so you will miss the cycle.
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