IiPunch - Monk Guide

Sounds like ya'll need to play Ninja. :D

Talk about clueless - even by your own definition of qualification, DRK trumps MNK.
for 5 minutes DRK can cruise at 6k+ HP minimum. Add in Dreadspikes.
But keeping moving your goal posts to suit your point, or lack of one. Balls already hit the back of the net.
case closed

I don't have any. But Pchan might?[/quote]
pchans sim is off by quite a bit. looking over it on mobile so i might have missed something, his multi attack proc order is wrong and a MA prof ignores the main for both tp and ws. so if you DA it only counts as a single hit and does not benefit from ODT of relic hidden and empyrean aftermath. having it on ws is even worse since it ignores the higher ftp hit and replaces it with 1, so adding DA will eventually lower average damage of smite.

I believe this is also the point of the DD market for Monk.

In #1, you will want to have something close to a zerg state. You want to deal the most amount of damage before the mob kills you. War, Drk and Sam rule this area because WS scale extremely well in high buff situations. Monk scales terribly with buffs due to low WS numbers.

In #3, you will want DD who can function well enough with minimal buffs. Monks used to work really well here as they once said to be able to deal good damage minimal buffs. However, Blu, Smn and probably Dnc, Bst, Pup, Thf now rule this area.

In #2, is where Mnk really really got beaten. Pretty much every other jobs beat Mnk in this area as these guys already work well in minimal buffs, with buffs, they can run away with much better numbers.

So you put the pros and cons of a Monk on the table you have a job that is expected to work as a 2H DD without the good stuff of a 2H DD, functions like a 1H DD without any of the capabilities of a 1H DD....

What Monk has left is Sublet Blow. Which is supposed to be nice but doesn't because of how a lot of strategies work. Similar to the sniper rifle back in Mass Effect 1, people simply over-charge their guns and take the heat for a 1-shot kill than wait for cool down. They simply over-power the mob before the TP damage become a problem.

Drain 3 lasts 3 min, not 5. It's easily dispelled, it doesn't land without JAs, and it eats casttime. DRK has pitiful m.eva and mdb in every set except ratri, which is not only terrible for TP but has a huge amount of damage taken+ on it.

6k hp sounds nice, but I don't think it's realistic to assume everyone is riding it the entire fight, especially when you're feeding nonstop TP to mobs that know interference. By your own words, yesterday in fact:



While we're at it, same thread:


MNK's defensive bonuses are built into it's most practical TP set and the job itself. They aren't something that can be dispelled, negated, or removed. If you don't see why this has value, there's little point arguing with you.

Drain 3 lasts 5:24 when you have all of the duration enhancing gear with NV/DS (5:37 with HQ Ratri feet), not 3 minutes.

Cast time doesn't really matter much when you're spending less about four to five seconds (including delay) every five minutes for significant survivability.

Saying that 6k is the minimum is completely wrong, though, since it's ignoring 1/2 resists (which will happen on dark affiliated mobs even with Dark Seal), and you have to drop a significant amount of drain potency gear to get >5 minutes. I think you're overstating the dispel problem, though, as few mobs have full dispels (and those wreck everyone anyway), and single dispel moves like Interference rarely hit it when you have many buffs up.

This topic is like MNK never died. I wish the Update would never come so we could stay in our little bubble of denial !

Aside from "maybe Godhands aren't better", I don't really have a reliable Aeonic group and there are several other Aeonic weapons higher on my priority list even if I did start doing more serious farming. Spharai is basically just gil, so it's something I could do without relying on anyone else - and from a cost/benefit perspective it seems to hold up pretty well against Mythic/Empy.

Even if Vere does get better numbers, I'm not interested in dealing with the much higher cost and much more annoying creation process. I'm also not sold on theoretical Vere numbers accurately modeling AM, so I'm always a little more hesitant to believe what I see there when it comes from spreadsheet only.

But, yeah, I wouldn't make any REM until seeing the changes. Just trying to wrap my head around Spharai's theoretical use cases and whether it might be worth it, depending on if we get significant buffs to TP/WS/both.


I do, you know that! ;) Gotta give some love to all of the underappreciated martial artist light DDs though!

Remember context is "playing defensively". Now running around solo meeting all objectives other than Magic bursts on DRK isn't really playing "defensively". And I'm getting those 1.5-2k Drain III's, alone - without anything other NV/DS. It still puts me at 4.5ksh. I still have access to dread spikes. I still have capped fastcast.
If I was playing D E F E N S I V E L Y short of a ***-up, I would have no less than 6K HP because it would be off an MB - and getting 3k MB off of drain III with NS/VD isn't setting the bar high at all.

Also, I think Comeatme is just trolling at this point. I don't think he should be taken seriously. When I saw BLU enter the conversation as a comparison to MNK, I knew this was just a troll trap.

Glad that someone mentioned we (drk) can push that hp buff (4-5k low end) up to 5min+ and that interference really won't hit it due to order of buffs dispelled.

Comeatmebro i have never known to be a "troll" by any means and I'm not sure if he was unaware of how Drk use that buff or simply forgot because he is an extremely knowledgeable player.

I could see SE giving mnk some very strong meva traits/mdb ones, that's an easy add

Fixing the damage dealt is the biggest issue and the inherent issues with h2h+how rema operate on them and kick attacks without also buffing pup which has finally found some great niche areas is troubling

Lol
"Bubble of denial" new geo spell?

This is fun isn't it!


No. Just no. Some magic evasion dumped into some ilvl gear doesn't make up for the lack of gifts/traits/useful JAs.
I don't know why you believe every job starts from the same baseline, but they don't. Other jobs have comparable/better magic evasion *before* gear. And even with the various magic evasion values seen across all jobs, those with the lower values aren't face-planting at the sight of an opposing TP move.
Just like with Subtle Blow. It isn't there to give a MNK an advantage. It is to make up for the disadvantage inherent to MNK that it must hit a target more times to get TP to weapon skill/defeat said target. The only jobs to see any advantage when Chi/Penance are applied are those with 4 or fewer hit builds. And those jobs don't need the help.
You've moved away from pre-ilvl content and now seem stuck on Omen bosses. Which is fine, they are the newest bosses to be offered. They have a set pattern: TP move > a melee swing or two > Spell > a melee swing or two > TP move. MNKs or otherwise are going to feed it plenty of TP to maintain that pattern with very little, if any delay. MNKs have to connect with the target more than the subtle blow helps.
It might be slower if the MNK just sits on its hands in a corner to let the stronger DDs hit it while Chi/Penance is up. But again, it isn't necessary so it isn't used/useful.

But, if nothing else, please look and see that MNK doesn't have some superior amount of magic evasion just because the new gear is trying to make up for a deficiency. SAM comes out further ahead. MNK just sort of evens out in terms of defensive gear.

And before you try to save face by saying I should preface your every post with "assuming MNK's DMG increase..." Sure, just like how revenue solves all known problems. So, too, would all the problems of MNK be dismissable if it did enough DMG. If it did enough DMG, MNK could have all of its JAs removed and it would still be useable. But, standing alone, the JAs are terrible. I can't think of a job that would be better if it swapped JAs with MNK. Maybe Impetus on a 1hd since they get 99% accuracy as a cap? DMG is already great on THF, I don't think it would need Impetus. I'd rather keep my Flee!

I got well confused when I first read that before you changed the quoted text lol.

Haha, yeah sorry. I'm having a rough day. I do re-read everything after I post and I've made a lot of errors today. More than usual. I miss my caffiene. :(

Omen mobs do not have a 'pattern', they WS when they have TP.
See: http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/48251/reisenjima-t4s/34/#3257230

When no TP is being fed by the player, and elegy is applied, the mob was recorded going 106 seconds between TP moves. Thus, we can infer that reducing TP given by players significantly will reduce actual TP significantly.

When accounting for delay, a MNK in a normal TP set gives 60-70% less TP per second than a WAR in a normal TP set. Not rocket science, feel free to run the #s yourself.

Are you prepared to cite a source to say that MNK has a lower baseline m.eva than any other job? Or, even, a source to show that jobs baseline m.eva varies?

Do you have testing to refute the well-accepted idea that 1 m.acc is worth 1% hitrate above 50% hitrate, and .5% hitrate below 50% hitrate? How about evidence magic evasion isn't comparable to magic accuracy?

Everything you're saying is purely assumption, and you're not even working within the accepted information that's been compiled over the last decade by players much smarter than yourself.

Can I use this forum and your recent posts as proof you don't have a clue?

Sure, but you're still going to have to form a coherent argument. Nothing you've said has been backed by any sort of numbers or logic. If I don't have a clue, surely it's easy to provide the supporting evidence for your statements as I have done.

I had to stick that in there fast before anyone else posted inbetween us! >:D

Seriously though, a MNK can give 60-70% less TP per second, but has to hit a target 80-100% more often... It is still coming up short.

The magic evasion thing is tired, man. C'mon. I don't know how to say this any better than:
And even with the various magic evasion values seen across all jobs, those with the lower values aren't face-planting at the sight of an opposing TP move.

The variation comes from gifts. You know what those are, right?

Well er...

Even in the worst case scenario for those numbers, 40% tp given * 200% number of hits = 80% TP given compared to other melees.

With the best case scenario, 30% tp given * 180% number of hits = 54% TP given compared to other melees

All these tangents! I feel like i just smoked up in a shady cafe in amsterdam and for some reason decided to start talking to a stranger about "life" advice.

You're not doing the math, you're throwing numbers out of your head.

Verethragna with penance, capped dAGI, and 75% SB gives 9 tp per hit. Ragnarok with capped dAGI and 15% SB gives 64 tp per hit. Verethragna max at 107 delay per 2 hits. Ragnarok maxes at 87 delay per 1 hit. Before accounting for DA/TA, that means MNK is giving 16.82 tp per 100 delay. WAR is giving 73.5 tp per 100 delay. 16.82 / 73.5 = .2288, so MNK is actually giving 77.12% less TP over time than the WAR is. I used 60-70% as a conservative estimate because the MNK probably doesn't have a HQ moonbow belt and the WAR may have other subtle blow gear. If the WAR has higher multihit as they should, it may even be as high as 80% less TP.

The highest job in terms of m.eva gifts is RUN, with 70. WAR has 36. MNK has 36. SAM has 36. BLU has.. drumroll.. 36. None of this really matters though, because you're talking about a difference of over 200. For it to be inconsequential, you pretty much have to say that the currently understood m.acc formulae are wrong.

Just gonna pop in here real quick to say that anecdotally, adding 2 pieces of Kendatsuba to my SAM TP set has greatly reduced the number of status effects that land on me while fighting omen bosses. I can only imagine how low it'll be once I get a 4/5 TP set going, since Kendatsuba is very similar to Inyanga in m. eva. Even if the damage isn't reduced that much, the difference between dealing and not dealing with status removal is a big deal. Pair that with their reduced TP feed, ability to Penance, higher HP and it's clear to see why MNK is a defensive DD. If MNK gets the much needed boost to DPS I could very easily see smaller groups and less skilled groups switching to MNKs to fight stuff since they'd be pretty damn indestructible on bosses.

Nice nice- maths. Impressive!
Now answer this:

How many times more does a MNK have to hit the mob to get to WS?
How many more WS's and white dmg does the MNK have to use before mob with x amount of HP is dead.

Now ask same questions of other jobs.

In a scenario such as Omen bosses, will the Boss unleash more or less moves before MNK kills, or WAR/DRK/SAM kill?

Also, since you seem to have trouble grasping the concepts, let me point out how big a number that really is.

If a WAR gives 73.5 tp per 100 delay, they will have given the mob 1000 tp after 1361 delay.

If a MNK gives 16.82 tp per 100 delay, they will have given the mob 1000 tp after 5945 delay.

I had an idea about monk I thought was interesting,

change boost completly to:

instead of attack boost make it strait dmg multiplyer of say .5 per boost and change the way boost stacks to be similar to finishing moves and allow to stack to say 10, boost lasts somthing like 45 seconds but each successive boost stacks till you reach rank 10 with 5x dmg multiplyer for all monk hits outside of WS, would also need to make boost have no ja delay similar to what they did for pup maneuvers. forgot to add in, once you reach rank 10 you gotta keep boosting to maintain rank 10 each boost thereafter reapplies rank 10.

But for the less TP given, how much DMG is being dealt?
How many swings of that Verethragna have to connect before it has enough TP to WS?

Irrelevant. Counting TP over time, which means the number of attacks is already isolated from the TP speed. If you want to say 'WAR has higher WS frequency than MNK', I won't disagree. You're clearly not understanding every variable at play here.

As I've said since the start, my assumption that MNKs abilities and traits are sufficiently useful is predicated on the basis they have their damage adjusted to be competitive. So, again, irrelevant.

Broken record. MNK's damage is ***right now. Every argument I've made is on the basis their damage is made comparable. It doesn't matter how long it takes for the MNK to get to 1000 tp. All that matters is that MNK will take nearly 5x longer to get the mob to 1000 tp. If we are sticking to the assumption that MNKs damage will be made comparable, problem is resolved.

As is, even without any damage boost, MNK does roughly 60% of the damage of a top notch WAR/DRK/SAM. Let's extrapolate, just for the sake of your stubbornness.

1.00 / .60 = 66.67% longer fight.
Given my average was about 45 seconds per TP move without any melee feeding, we can assume the mob has a natural gain of 25 per second(its really 22.2, but w.e).

5/3 * .2288 = .38133.

So, depending on how you estimate the mob's tp gain, at today's current stats, the MNK group would have anywhere from just over 1/3 to just over 1/2 as many tp moves, despite the fight being significantly longer. If MNK was boosted to do 80% of a WAR's damage, it would be cleanly under 1/3 as many TP moves per fight.

react

yeah its been proposed by a few people often enough in this thread. Which makes it the least likely change SE will make lol.
I know them.. I've known them for 15 years.. they're going to do something to footwork..GDI I know they're going to make Footwork and Dragon Kick/Tornado Kick MNK's new exploitable abilities/ws's and I absolutely hate Footwork.

Again, not at home so can't pop onto the game to confirm, but BG Wiki has BLU getting Magic Defense Gifts as well as Evasion. MNK and SAM do not get any of those. That took me less than a minute to confirm: They aren't all the same.

The common thing we agree with is:
Sure, just like how revenue solves all known problems. So, too, would all the problems of MNK be dismissable if it did enough DMG.

We will just have to wait and see what is changed by the update.
If the DMG isn't dramatically increased, the JAs still won't matter. Like they don't matter today. Proof that they don't matter is that they aren't needed or even used.