IiPunch - Monk Guide

Yeah first should be 10% proc rate, second attack. Which is exactely like Byrth said, it's gonna benefit MNK in lowbuff/uncapped situations, but when you're fighting something close to att cap all of these it's gonna be useless.

KA Job Points, Footwork Att bonus, Segomo's KA att bonus, Smite job trait, and so on.

Let's face it, it doesn't even take that much to cap attack.
Bolster Frailty, Dia2 and you're practically there.
Even without bolster it's really not THAT hard to cap attack.
Sigh...

Eh, on some content I think it might take quite a bit to cap attack, and you don't have to drop much below cap for it to be useful. This is with Godhands' 500 TP Bonus, at least.

Also, Anchorite feet +3 are clearly the best tornado kick feet with footwork up, but without footwork it is comparably strong.

But Tornado Kick without FW up will use the MH damage (+150 in case of Godhands), and it won't have the FW attack bonus, nor the KA bonus att/acc from Job Points and Segomo's Mantle. Last but not least, it won't have the enhanced TP return when Footwork is up (unless this was removed when they changed how FW works? I keep on forgetting)
It still has a ~1.5 base att bonus built-in in the WS, but it shouldn't make it better than, say, Raging Fists? Unless you're *really* starving for attack, in which case Raging Fists gets kinda poo.


Also Byrth can you check my question in the previous page about your most recent spreadsheet Vere vs Godhands test?
Because on the previous one you made 1-2 months ago Vere was also winning, until the limitations of the Aftermath came out and then Vere fell behind.
I'm afraid Capu's updated spreadsheet doesn't take into consideration these limitations for the Aftermath calculations and still applies it to more theoretical hits than it should, alterating the final DPS results.



@Capuchin @Ramzus
We need updated Howling Fist and Tornado Kick sets now! >:D
Altough all these WSs and so many meh SC properties. I think MNK is the one job I have the most WS configured in the lua... Ironic.

Footwork with Anchorite Gaiters +3 and full JPs (D18+120+20=D158) isn't that different from Godhands (D150). Kicks also have a lower weapon rank (less fSTR), which is probably relevant for a STR-based WS.

Vereth ODT is being calculated correctly. The formula for it is:
ODT additional damage = Average punch damage * Proc rate * Punch hit rate * 2

I would probably favor Godhands atm because it's more versatile, though.


Edit: Added honor march, same link
Edit2: Added Gifts and made Bhikku/Bhikku+1 affect Impetus
Edit3: Added Afterglow effects. The sheet does no checks to make sure you don't have both an Aftermath and Afterglow active. That's on you.

I have 31 different unique WS sets in my WAR's lua. MNK has like 5 or 6.

H2H WS's needed fixed badly.

Some observations from the sheet, some of which I think are in line with what Byrth was reporting. Keep in mind I tested sets with the gear I have currently available, which is far from BiS.

Tornado Kick at 1000 TP (with impetus down) proved to be the best WS to use for me, even with Footwork Down, even without Anchorite+3 boots. As long as attack was uncapped and not close to cap.

Howling Fist was second best. The gear I used was pretty much the same as the one for Tkick, couldn't find anything (noticeably) better within the gear I already own.

Raging Fists was behind, the numbers provided by Raging Fists at 1000 TP, despite Moonshade + Godhands, seemed pretty low to me. Are we sure the Spreadsheet is fine here? Might just be my bias.
Raging Fists starts getting above Howling/Tornado as TP and attack raise up. The closer to 3000 tp and the closer to att cap, the better Raging performs, after a certain threshold it starts performing better.
This... kinda makes sense. It has slightly better TP scaling than the other two, and as you get closer to att cap the attbonus on Tornado and the IgnoreDef on Howling start to lose relevance.
Also this seems to perfectly reflect the graph Motenten posted longtime ago showing how beyond a certain point Howling was better than Raging.
In reality this never proved to be true for us, but that was because we were gearing with STR/DEX instead od STR/VIT, I assume.



Also, noticed Genmei's Kabuto and Floestone are missing from the spreadsheet. They're weak choices compared to what we have nowadays but might want to put em in? Spreadsheet is full of "weak" choices anyway.
Along the same lines, I would add a couple more variations of Segomo mantle by default, like DEX/WSdmg and VIT/WSdmg or something like that.

Added the pieces.

Also, Tornado Kick might not make big shiny Lights, but it does make continuous T1 skillchains.

Edit: actually, it doesn't. It makes Impaction, then Detonation, and then it fails to skillchain.

While not spectacular overall I'd dare to say that tkick sc properties are surely better than raging fists'...

My Howling Fist sets are already BiS even with recent revelations (with the exception of Caro->Gorget), STR/WSD is roughly equivalent to VIT/WSD augs so either work. For practicality reasons I would go with STR/WSD since they work for other WS unless you really care about an additional 12 damage. I'll whip up some Tornado Kick sets soon.

Also I'm getting fairly high Raging Fist numbers, DPS was at 4.3k without even having changed out of the Howling Fist set which is pretty comparable to what I had with Vere/VS yesterday.


Another interesting revelation is that WSD actually affects Raging Fists quite a bit... I'm getting better numbers with 5WSD/STR Herc than with HQ abjs, albeit very slightly

Found a small mistake in the spreadsheet.
Lilitu Headpiece (max) has STR set at 26, instead it should be 32.

I'm not sure if this was already known, but BGwiki was misleading/wrong about it so I figure I'll post it here and then link this post as testing.


Really really low probability event, but this happened with Counterstance and Perfect Counter up. Normal counters can't miss, which means normal counters would have failed the Acc check and not occurred. Thus, Perfect Counter converts normal Counter potential misses into "tried to counter, but missed" procs. So, a 100% Counter rate should really negate 100% of melee attacks with Perfect Counter up (30 seconds of every minute) regardless how low your hit rate is.

Edit: Assuming it isn't also capped at 80% like normal counters.

Two things from looking at JP wiki:
* JP wiki doesn't seem to know what Perfect Counter / Counterstance Job Points are doing either.
* JP wiki's notes on Footwork say that the attack bonus from gear is valid only when equipped, which is not how the current sheet is set up. I really don't want to test this. Do we have a reason for believing they can be removed?

Okay, Perfect Counter JPs.

Suwaiyas (D148, 242 skill) with Combatant's Torque and full merits (455 base skill) has a base damage of 251 with capped fSTR. I also had 11% Crit damage in gear and the 550 Counter Damage +5% Gift. I confirmed that my 11% crit damage is actually 11% crit damage (Mamoolbane hit for 75).

The model would have predicted:
Normal melee hits: 878-921
Critical melee hits: 1253-1315
Normal counter hits: 921-967
Critical counter hits: 1315-1380

I observed:
Normal melee hits: 879-921 (96% range)
Critical melee hits: 1258-1307 (78% range)
Normal counters: 921-960 (85% range)
Critical counters: 1326-1366 (60% range)
PC+0 counters: 1314-1369 (84% range)
PC+17 counters: 1312-1365 (81% range)

Considering I confirmed the other factors, I can only conclude that something about the way they implemented the Counter Damage +5% Gift pushes counter damage a little lower than you'd expect otherwise. I have no idea what the VIT bonus on Perfect Counter is. It certainly doesn't give me more VIT or base damage during Perfect Counter.

Am I wrong in saying that Perfect Counter has a low chance of not disappear after a Perf Counter happens?
If I'm not wrong, maybe VIT has something to do with this chance of Perf Counter to stay even after a perf counter happens?

The initial interpretation was that Counter preempts Perfect Counter. However, that can't be exactly what's happening because:
1) Any counter with Perfect Counter up is a crit
2) Counters can "miss" without burning Perfect Counter

At the same time, casual testing indicates that Counterstance greatly increases the odds of Perfect Counter staying up after a Counter proc, so it seems likely that the Perfect counter retention rate does depend on Counter rate to some degree. It could be that there's some additional counter proc rate based on VIT, but goooood luck testing it.

Okay, Counterstance JPs do more or less what you'd think. I confirmed before testing that Counterstance'd Counters gave the same damage as non-Counterstance'd Counters. Using the same gear as last time, now with 9 Counterstance JPs, my damage became:
Non-crit: 1124-1176 (93% range)
Crit: 1651-1670 (23% range)

My DEX was 308, which means we'd anticipate a 55 base damage increase (18% of my DEX). The non-crit range works out to a ~54 base damage increase, but the slightly-less-than-5% counter damage gift is probably just getting in the way again. So it works as described and boosts the base damage of your Counters by up to 40% of your DEX. That's a pretty substantial increase, but also kind of a joke because it's only Counter damage.

I'm almost through MNK JPs, and I have to say that the job holds up a bit better than I expected. Even though I'm using Suwaiyas instead of a RMEA, I still pull ~1200 CP/hr. That's more or less the same as my other melee jobs. After a certain point you spend the majority of the time running between spawns, but my Monk was at least capable of hitting that point.

I think something more in line with a 20% damage boost would be sufficient to bring this job back in line with other melee.

The problem we have in the game at the moment is a lack of content that puts these jobs and their properties to use. Monk is not simply a Damage dealer, none of the jobs are supposed to be simply damage dealers. No one wants the purpose of a job to be "deal x amount of damage within x amount of time", and that's all we look at. That's a ridiculous linear approach to a game with 22 jobs that are supposed to have a place. The content is the problem. How can SE fix that? Listening to parse users complain about dps is getting out of hand, the problem isn't the job, it's the content. At the current time, none of the content REQUIRES the USE of the properties possessed by monk.

With that said, there are some places where subtle blow, Counter and low delay HELP, yet don't necessarily change the way we think about monk...the lesser DD.

Monk only FEELS like it got pushed to the side because of it's use in Abyssea which was DD TANK and primary blue proc'er.... Monk was "IT". Monk is still monk, it's great, the content just doesn't reflect this job's potential.

Anyways, if I hear another person say, "This jobs lacks damage" followed by "the dps.....", then it just shows that you are missing out on the complexity involved with, what used to be, a balanced game, where each job had a place and more specific purpose rather than DPS.

In between victory and defeat were nuances to the fight that played a major role. Yeah, DPS is important, but the best DPS achieved USED TO BE determined by How you approached each fight. The best DPS in a merit party, on spreadsheets, rarely translated over to end game because the fights weren't so simple.

Monk doesn't need a damage boost so it can compete with other jobs in capacity point parties, it needs content where it can SHINE again.


The End.

I think MNK's white damage is okaysh. Imho they would just need to somehow boost WS damage. Boost WSmods, TP anchor points, or if they don't want to boost PUP as well, then give MNK some job-specific trait that increases WS damage (all hits) and it's done.


If they wanna do deeper things then imho they would have to go beyond that and just make MNK more interesting by buffing some traits (KA), some JAs (among which certainly Boost and Footwork, doesn't deserve a 5 min CD to say the least), some JPs and some gifts too.

It'd be nice if jobs really could survive on their utility, but the reality is that Monk is just a blunt DD with a lot of HP and Formless Strikes.

Points of uniqueness:
1) Counter/Counterstance/perfect Counter - Counter only works on melee attacks, which are a small fraction of monster damage at the moment in most cases. Most of the time this serves as a minor DPS increase when Monk has hate.
2) Guard - Floored proc rate on everything of note even at capped skill. Not really worth considering.
3) H2H damage - Fairly unique, but Avatars are also a pretty good source of blunt damage in general
4) HP/Mantra - As mentioned, Monk has a lot of HP. This is one true differentiating feature, but if you can use a lower HP DD and they'll still live then this doesn't matter so much.
5) Kick Attacks/Footwork - Sort of the poor man's Double Attack, but it has some advantages.
6) Focus - Alternated with Aggressor, this gives you at least 25 extra Acc at all times. However, Monk needs it because they kind of got dicked over in the Gift Acc department. Combined with Aggressor and HF with Gifts, you are looking at >124 Acc for the duration of HF. That is a lot of additional Acc to bring to a Zerg, but again, MNK kind of needs it.
7) Formless Strikes - Useful when it's useful, useless when it's not. This is a point of interest for Monk, but Requiescat made it less useful than it used to be.
8) Chakra/Boost/Chi Blast/Dodge/etc. - Not worth discussing. Your Chakra heals you for 2k? gr8 m8. I use mine at most once every 5 minutes too.


So if SE wants people to use Monk, they either have to design content that plays to its rather narrow set of strengths or increase its DPS so it's useful in situations that don't require a blunt melee DD with a lot of HP that can also do magical damage.

I always thought the best concept of MNK utility was inhibiting enemy TP gain, feels like that'd be easy to implement and extremely useful for a melee job.

No the problem is H2H weaponskills.

There is absolutely nothing that MNK does that can't be done better by someone else. For a long time MNK rode Formless to bypass damage mechanics on various delve NM's until people realized it was faster to just deal with them then to carry a MNK through.


Retaliation destroys counter for damage output.


Both WAR and BLU destroy MNK in blunt damage as club WS's are far more exploitable then H2H WS's are.


FS is the only "unique" ability MNK brings to the table but it's dwarfed by Requiescat and Tomahawk since FS only effects melee attacks that those are ***damage compared to WS's.

And yeah that's about it. It would be pretty decent as a DD if H2H WS's weren't so bad for scaling. Making VS copy fTP like CDC and then changing the anchor points of HF/TK while raising the WSC to 60/60 would make it so that bringing a MNK won't be a negative hit. I actually brought MNK to the start of an Aeonic clear when your spamming the Zi'Tah and Ru'ann NM's, something I normally do on WAR, DRK or BLU and damn MNK felt so useless there. Even with mega buffs it still did mediocre damage and provided no real utility.

The combination of high haste/multiattack on melees + commonplace regain on monsters limits the practical benefit of merely inhibiting TP gain. Developing that line of play into something noteworthy would probably require some sort of TP reducing ability a la Mewing Lullaby or Reaving Wind. Something like that is very difficult to balance properly; it's either insignificant or extremely powerful in any given fight/setup.

Still do monk things, just now I do it /anon and under gear limits .....

I kinda feel like Impetus has potential for a buff, and is a pretty unique ability that wasn't touched on above. The miss penalty is overly harsh though. Maybe just make it a flat crit rate/crit dmg buff, play around with the timers to balance the strength of the move, drop the miss penalty altogether, etc. At least weaken the miss penalty - say, each consecutive hit gains 1% crit rate up to a fixed cap, each miss knocks you back 3% instead of wiping the counter altogether and restarting from zero.

Still feel like Boost could be SOMETHING again too. I like the idea of the JA giving some sort of substantial bonus that is only applied to the next WS used. I'm talking about enough of a buff to make Boosted H2H WS competitive with strong non-H2H WS, since WS potential seems to be what everyone agrees is one of MNK's major deficiencies these days. Also addresses the legitimate balance issue that just buffing H2H across the board may risk making PUP too powerful.

If you only have to Boost once to get full power, I'm not too concerned about JA delay (just as it doesn't bother me for SA/TA/Flourishes). If you want to retain the concept of stacking multiple Boosts, maybe put some sort of cap on it (3 times to reach max Boost?) and eliminate JA delay for the ability - just like they did with PUP's maneuvers.

I wonder what wasn't working on Moonbow belt +1

Maybe they forgot to apply Subtle Blow II exceeding the normal Subtle Blow cap or something. Or treated the DT as PDT like good ol' Black Belt.

I kinda hope it's something of an understandable mistake like that, and not some major screw up like Triple Attack not working.

The Subtle Blow II is almost certainly what it was. Ascended mobs use a single TP move on me now. Normal monsters never get to TP. Can't wait to get Ngaijoaijoif ring for the last 5 Subtle Blow II. Then I'll go test to see if it caps.

Yeah the missing thing makes Impetus just blah as your going to be constantly resetting the buff. Boost should act as a +WSD like how Restraint works but has a stacking ability. You can choose to Boost + WS, or hold TP and waste potential DPS opportunity for larger SC from a bigger Boost bonus. Of course that won't matter if the WS's aren't boosted themselves via fTP or WSC increase's. Awhile back all the other WS's were seriously boosted except a few categories and those have something to fall back on.

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when the game started, Monk's gimmick was fast TP gain coupled with reliable Weaponskill Damage - Monk was the only job that could approach the Haste cap with Black Belt, and Brown Belt's Haste +8 was pretty much unheard of for most jobs out there (Speed Belt for the jobs that could wear it was a whopping 6%, and this was back in ye grande days of RMT...) and then easily cap it as additional gear was introduced. Subtle Blow was in part to help limit the TP gain of monsters from a Monk's swift strikes. Weaponskills like Raging/Asuran Fists were incredibly reliable sources of damage, and Hundred Fists was pretty damn sweet for taking down Dynamis Lord if you didn't have several DRKs with Kraken Clubs. Counter gave it survivability when they inevitably pulled hate because hate mechanics were garbage. subbing Warrior for the extra Double Attack allowed Monk to swing often and its JAs complemented battle with a little bit of ebb and flow on fights.

the problem is, that Monk has received very little polish since inception, and everyone playing can recognize that every job can hit the haste cap pretty much in their sleep, is sitting on a pile of multi-attack to hit hard and often, and that many regular attacks are now treated as TP moves on high end content . Impetus is neat but overall does little to change the job. Mantra had its uses to give people more HP to survive attacks, but WHM are essentially bottomless pools of MP, so unless you were going to get 1-shot it doesn't matter. H2H weaponskills fare incredibly poorly due to crap http://fTP. Monk's niche was gradually whittled away by gear creep while receiving only the occasional band-aid.

if SE wanted to handle Monk within lore, Monk has always been a bit of a glass cannon which had significantly more HP and VIT to weather that a bit. they could increase Monk's attack speed and damage such that they are swinging really fast and hitting like a truck again, keeping WS damage where it's currently sitting in the trash can in favor of overwhelming white damage. perhaps breaking the normal Haste cap when it comes to gear, allowing them to convert excess to magical or JA forms, allowing them to require a little less support. they could offer a significant increase to HP - offering Monk native HP along the lines of what a fully geared PLD has (though this is of little worth on its own). give Monk DW3 - since they can only use H2H/Club/Staff - and some really solid beat down clubs and staves. Adjust Monk's job abilities so that they either have greater effect with Monk as the main job - something that scales like Hasso for Samurai or Warrior's Double Attack trait - to ensure that things remain "balanced".

they need to find ways to let the job really mesh with everyone else in game, because right now, Monk is one of the most one dimensional jobs in the game.