For The Shinies! A Guide For Thief

Just got back into the game and looking to build a relic of some sort, I mostly play alone so its just for fun and stuff, that being said I considered Mandau because I like thief, however I wanted to ask is it still a good dagger?
I noticed that the guides weapon review is a bit dated and the damage on a mandau seems low compared with other daggers available.

When you say we need DW11 you mean DW+11 right? So Heartseeker earring set + Taeon boots would be DW11 yea?

Yeah when people mention DW11 they are referring to the amount needed to cap delay reduction when you have capped haste.

Can someone update the gear sets for best TPset with and without ACC gear?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvqyMyZM1qY

Totally...THF is OP. No job could ever touch THF damage <.<

Just in case you didn't click...its a video of a SMN one shotting Delve 2 Yorcia NMs with a flaming crush Light SC and two shotting Wopket in about an 8 second fight from start to finish.

Well it seems SE has backtracked yet again and are now changing Ardor from a spell that helps rapid-hitting dd jobs like thf and dnc, to a spell that helps anyone who isn't doing self-sc's. I guess this is a boost to anyone that isn't sam, but it's a little unfair that they plan on postponing Ardor and not the dagger nerf. Ardor coming out was the whole reason they were rushing the dagger nerf in the first place. Now it seems we get at least a month of disappointing damage before they try anything to "fix it" with Ardor, assuming the spell's boost is even noticeable. It's not like sams have to suffer a GK nerf, so unless Ardor blows everything else out of the water, my feeling is that players will prefer the ease of just throwing sams at bosses and not worry about having to invite a rdm and at least 2 other damage types to make decent sc's (I'm also shuddering at the memory of how painful it was to sit on tp while waiting for other jobs to catch up and be ready to sc). Will the bonus from the sc really compensate for all the damage from solo ws's that could have gone off during the time you had to hold tp to organize a 3 person chain?). Unless the mobs resist slasing damage, Fudo spam should be more than enough damage and be a lot easier to organize.

So are the definitively nerfing Rudra?

Along with Mercy Stroke, Mandalic Stab and Shark bite for some reason. Imagine that? A potential world where we can't even beat current level Shark Bite WS power

IE: They are nerfing THF.

Could you just stop whinning? they gave you too much and now they are taking back some and all you yell/complain about on ffxiah forum and the official one is "they are nerfing THF" like thf will be the only one trully impacted and like those WS were totally balanced. granted thf will see the biggest dmg reduction but thf isnt the only job.

when a THF can trash a good koga sam by about 30% dmg in incursion 130+ without even having a mythic, when you ended up bringing 2 THFs instead of other DD cause the fight goes much faster. when unstacked WS range from 5 to 20k and stacked from 20 to 35k you feel it's normal? unlike crevox on the official forum whome i support totaly, i have both SMN and THF but i still think rudra needs a decrease in dmg. the dmg output is just stupid. yes i enjoyed the high numbers but no, they are not "right".
they shouldnt leave sam out of the loop of the readjustment but rudra definitively needed some. i would disagree on the other 3 listed WS though. even with the weapons boosting their respective WS the numbers were never comparables.

lets enjoy the game and a bit of variety, rudra must go down a bit. that's all. and before you keep going about SMN and all, do play it. just to feed you that same argument that you fed crevox about knowing and understanding THF and oh god how difficult it is to SA OR TA things even with the mob spinning and all...

Could you go eat a buffet of ***? Nebo has stated over and over he doesn't want smn or sam nerfed. He just doesn't want thf nerfed. Nerfing thf at this point doesn't make any *** sense. If you want to balance something you lower the damage of the jobs doing the most damage. Not the jobs in the middle. Who are they planing to nerf next *** ninja? And honestly dnc damage isn't going to be hurting unless they also decide that PK and evis is too powerful too.

I'm glad they're nerfing Rudra's and I'm a THF "main". I can live to tell my grandchildren one day that I was once a part of the great THF bandwagon. I don't see the point of them nerfing the other dagger WSs though, it's not like they can even do 30k stacked, except some special NMs?

I am sorry. I couldnt remember the other champion whinner. I should have included you as well in my comment.

Rudra needs what's comming. THF is losing its giant D* in the process. well, it's needed. cant be helped. we will be downgraded to sam or war level du to this nerf instead of being 30-40% ahead of everythign else...

the other solution would have to keep buffing everyone to see so big numbers everywhere to the point it doesnt make sens anymore. go post and ask SE to give instant death on all att while at it. that's where it'll lead if at some point we harmonize dmg toward the low average instead of the high peaks.

the same applies in table RPG. if you ever played any. players want power. the tric is giving them the impression they get it while not. the moment the GM gives in or too much, the game is lost. you never recovers the balance.

Edit : i nearly missed the part i put in bold. my first answer was mostly to me eating ***.
so who's doing the most dmg? over all in a more than very very very specific environement? if it's not THF? pray tell me. because so far when you replace all other DD by THFs cause they are more efficient dmg wise in the same buff situation as every other melee DDs, then what? who's the top dog that aparently stays so discreet that ppl focus on THF only? if THF is the middle job, i would like to see your list of the other's ranking vs THF.

Congrats, you win the "I can read stupid sh*t on the internet and regurgitate it" award.

THF is not 30-40% of anything on equal footing. And this Nerf is not needed based on WS damage. THF WS damage is not the issue.

Skillchain damage is the only component of THF damage that has the potential to pull ahead due to the nature of SC multipliers and packing all of THF WS damage into one big WS (as opposed to spreading it out over a much higher WS frequency like other DD's can). But even that requires a degree of cooperation and positioning for SA/TA from your other team members such that attributing a double darkness skill chain's damage solely to the THF doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

THF is not pulling ahead on WS damage and frankly, killing THF WS damage is the wrong adjustment to make. But it doesn't matter now. I wouldn't be surprised if they lose 25-30% subs this month alone to another stupid decision they made - announcing there will be no new content after Nov and converting it to a mobile....MMMMMMMMMO with (SHUDDER) Nexon?

Who does SE have making their strategy decisions? They need to fire that idiot.

There isn't any regurgitated stuff read on the internet. This is from actual experience running incursion at 133 and seeing parse results over multiple months running with a two sam setup, thf & sam setup, and a two thf setup. It's ok to be ignorant to other groups and their setups but none of the difficulties you imply with sa/ta positions or skillchaining is an issue in well formed and communicative groups that aren't relying on pug players.

general consensus has been that Mandau is worse than Iziikoh for a while now; however, you should be building a REM for the job you love, not the flavor of the month. if Thief is your favorite job, build the Mandau.

None of which (groups or their setups..or even their parses) really has anything to do with job potential. That aside, I've already said that skillchaining is what can pull a THF ahead in certain situations and that should be the focus of adjustment. Killing THF WS damage instead is only going to kill the job (and non mythic DNC).

I never implied SA/TA positioning was difficult (I specifically said the opposite). I did say that it takes other players to coordinate, and that I don't specifically agree with attributing all the SC damage to the THF since they can't do it without help.

That particular conversation was also spilled over from the OF and was in response to Crevox saying that "mindlessly spamming rudra" (which wouldn't win anyone any parses against a competant SAM) was easy and that the SMN setup in the video was "hard, and took highly skilled coordination". It was also in reference to his argument that PUGs couldn't do it.

In actualilty, closing light with flaming crush is probably easier (with less risk involved) than setting up a double darkness SC for a THF to close (for PUGS). Neither of these are especially difficult, but to argue that THF has it "easier" in that regard is untrue.

Also before people quote other things I didnt say, I never called for either a SMN or a SAM nerf (actually I think it was Crevox that said flaming crush needs a nerf O.o).

http://de.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/35200/the-parthenon-a-warriors-kyklos/50/#2839415

That conversation between Ejiin and Bryth is probably the best to describe the situation of melee jobs right now.

To summarize if you are skill chaining right thf and sam are unstoppable powerhouses. Honestly I don't see why people don't have sams go Rana > Shoha > Fudo > Kasha > Rana > Fudo > Rudra's for dark weak mobs and Shoha > Fudo > Kasha > Rana > Shoha > Mandalic > Fudo for light.

But for straight dps, dnc and blu are ahead a little while sam, war, drg, drk, and thf are right on top of each other. Then nin and mnk would be in the tier below that. Have no clue about bst and pup though.

The issue with thf and sam being too op is based around how much skillchain damage does. But for some unknown reason they want to buff skillchain damage with a new rdm spell, and to compensate nerf thf.

If they don't want thf to do such high ws numbers than they should lower the timers of SA/TA and make the ws best to use a 1000tp and less effective at higher ones, so they ws at a rate similar to other jobs. That way thf still has good dps but can't abuse skillchains.

Or they could reduce the amount of damage skillchains do making sam and thf less op. What they shouldn't do is nerf thf so their stacked ws at 2000 tp only do as much as other jobs' ws at 1000 tp.

I find it funny..... 2004-06 I could seek for 6 hours while farming and get no party invite. Now apparently THF is all the rage.... Funny how times change.......

On the upside at least my Thf paid for itself and I made a good chunk of coin just looking for a party lol

I think anyone can have their own personal opinion about rudra nerf. Some wont bother, some will enjoy, others will be pissed, its all good.

But if your make your opinion based in an affirmation people have been saying lately, that "rudra needed to be nerfed" i will disagree.

First, whats "needed"? Imo its something that without it, other thing would be unviable.

Ilv was "needed" in order to allow average playerbase to clear SoA content without being hostage of the few 3-4 songs brd.

Trusts were "needed" in order to allow the game more solo friendly.

Salvage/assault entrance restriction removal was "needed" in order to make mythics more viable to playerbase.

Now,
Unlocking empy ws wasnt needed. It was possible to clear content without that.

Buffing fudo wasnt needed. Sam already was better than mnk (former best) with just shoha and namas.

Buffing rudra wasnt needed. Every content could be cleared without rudra, and STILL can be cleared without thfs.

Now, if your argument is that rudra "disrupt" a suposed "balance", i would say:
- "balance" never existed;
- aside rng strat, i never saw this game more open to other jobs: incursion is always any job, cp party is mre restricted to backline jobs, unity is any job, skirmish is any or mages, just check it;
- any ls thats proud of itself can clear content with any job, so i doubt they would force carreer sam, war, blu or etc to be thf just because its thf;
- if you form any pug nowaday, you can still clear any content with pugs (aside maybe some delve2 due gimmicks);
The only scenario i can think thf could disrupt said "balance" would be for people that join pugs, and need to accept leaders preference. But if thats your case, probably you struggled since nni introduction, possible even before, so the problem here isnt rudra.

So far the highest Rudra's I got off was about 28k with only SA, 26k with TA only. Haven't been able to SATA it.

My question, without SA, TA, etc, what's the highest?

I've done like 34k to a 129/130 Gramk-Droog with just TA or SA with Izy in main. I've never broken 36k on anything that doesn't take bonus damage to melee/piercing or special damage in general.

@pentafernando- All I see in your last post is that the game NEEDS to be in easy mode when I'm sure most of us are dying for challenging content. What would you suggest then, that they buff every other WS to do double their damage to compete with Rudra THF's current state then? That would make current content a joke don't you think? And yes, I've parsed top a few times in incursion and stuff so I know what I'm talking about. As much fun as I had, it's about time SE came to their senses.

Thanks for the reply, as I said I really just play alone doing stuff like dynamis and salvage and then maybe some shout stuff. I love thief but I dont want to put my gil into a mandau if its essentially a downgrade :(. I'd rather build another relic if that is the case.

Lol, it costs like 50~55 mil to make a Mandau now... 3k bynes/shells and like 5-6k bronze. I was in the process of making a third mandau before the rudra's thing, got to stage 3 heh. Mandau is one of the coolest looking weapons in the game, I still carry mine around just for fun. I was sad they killed one of the few remaining useful dd relics, but who's to say they wont buff relic weapons again? I know it's a shot in the dark, but one can hope!

I already said that in others posts, thinking playerbase actually wants hard content isnt true for the simple argument:

- if people are "dying" for challenging content, why none bother doing incursion lv140+ (Even more true after refractive crystal addiction)?

- if people are "dying" for challenging content, why the most pugged delve are the morimar/foret and not kamihr?

- if people are "dying" for challenging content, why all hbcnm done are majority N or D, hardly VD? And why most still are done with rng strat?

- if people are "dying" for challenging content, why everyone still does vw?

- if people are "dying" for challenging content, why everyone still does mythic (also salvage, nyzul, assaults, lv75 content)?

The answer is, none cares with difficult or easier content. The answer i came up in the past is that what people really wants is a reason to do a content, a reasonable reason to redo it as much time its needed. Having "hard" content just would increase the amount of time till you master it, so, it would gives a feeling youre enjoying, because everytime you do that event youre progressing, while easy content you soon cap gear/experience, so it leaves an impression that easier is bad, when actually, its just faster to get capped/bored.

In the end, easier/hard content just have one destiny: gets boring overtime. But if both easier/hard content doesnt have any reason to do it, everyone will just skip it. thats all.

Rudras 1k or 100k will make no diference to enjoy or not a content. Enjoyment is diferent than dificulty.

Heres the thing. Even a 34K WS on THF isn't broken (Unless we are talking about closing a double dark skillchain)

Consider this. SAM has been able to solo 5 step light with massive SC damage for a long time. Such that groups often opted to take One SAM and support instead of two because it was more damage. At least THF needs other DD's to make this happen.

You need 3000 TP and a positional JA with a recast timer to do a ~30k WS. Unstacked WS are comparatively weak. What can another DD do with 3000TP? Three weapon skills. How long does it take to build 1000TP? Much less time than a THF. What does their white damage look like? Stronger than a THF. What are their WS numbers consistently at 1000 TP? Can they self SC by default spamming with a strong WS?

People cry 30K SA/TA WS = busted all day long but truthfully, it isn't. You can't spam them, you need to position & stack, you need to hold TP and THF builds tp much slower than x-hit build 2 handers.

Individual WS power? We're strong. Overall WS damage potential over time? NOT the strongest. Double Darkness Skillchain potential....needs a look.

No one bothers with 140+ incursion because there was no incentive to do so... and most of us are lucky to even have one Idris in LS. Comparing PUG to an established LS... wow. Yeah, my LS should totally do Morimar when we have a few people who low man just about anything as it is. In fact, we've been doing Marjami and Kamihr to clear people. RNG strat = high chance of success, why would you bring melees that take too much damage... that's like sayin you never used RNGs to DD ixion, I mean sure it was possible but it just took longer. It's an easy concept, if the mob you're fighting is most likely to kill anyone in range, you shouldn't fight in range of what can kill you.

Now let's take it back to a more valid example. Clearing your first delve pre ilvl weapons was very challenging, it took months until the first few wins. We need something in the lines of that, which takes a lot of coordination and group effort. I even liked DM2 even if it was RNG burned because VD was no pushoever at first, but a good coordinated group with a solid strat had no problem. People beating Kamihr/Yorcia/Marjami delve in a day was saddening... it was nice that SE was thoughtful enough to cater to those who can't get an LS, but giving a party the same rewards an a full alliance for delve was stupid, especially since it's easier to low man. Don't get me started on Unity and adoulin NMs, I cheesed most of them with THFx2, so yeah, Rudra's kinda needed adjustment.

@Nebo I'm using my TP at 1750, the only reason to hang onto 3000tp is if you're hit with amnesia... and you're underestimating THFs ability to generate TP. I'm able to get 1000-1500 TP before my Sa/Ta timers are up most of the time.

No one is hitting a 34K WS with 1750 TP. And I'm not underestimating anything. A Koga SAM (for example) will murder your WS frequency.

If anything you should be able to WS a few times between SA/TA timers. But you will still never catch a proper X-hit in WS frequency. Especially if you are consitently holding to 1750.

Theres a chance it will be one of the best again after this nerf. Depending on the severity of Rudra nerf. If I recall, the only thing pushing Shark Dagger ahead was the DEX.

Rudras nerf is stupid to balance DDs.
As was mentioned skillchain damage is whats killing balance.
Just cap lvl 1 2 3 skillchains depending on how many chains are used.
Lvl 1 cap at 2k on a 2step, 3k on 3 step 4k on 4 step
Lvl 2 1k more on each
Lvl 3 same and have 3 step double darkness or light cap at around 10k.
Means most DDs can reach the 10k cap but lowers the OP WSs and stupid damage from smns.
And make skill chaining with same weapon types take a penalty to skillchain damage of like 50%.