For The Shinies! A Guide For Thief

Technically so would relic boots? But its a much smaller gain imo when emp heads around even outside pdl with better raw defensive stats

Hard agree with this, and I follow the same mantra with WAR and double attack.

I think the only job that could make a viable quadruple attack build would be BRD (I think they get something like 14%?) but even then, not sure how viable it would be in real content.

Like you, I've always felt THF and WAR played their best by leaning into their natural MA synergies.

It's even worse for WAR though, because QA is double a DA. Unless you have a 100% DA damage build I'm not aware of, it's mathematically impossible for DA to do more damage than QA, even if the 3rd and 4th hits gave 0 TP. I don't understand this logic at all.

It's fractions of a percent. It doesn't matter. For or against.

Unnoticeable in anything but theory.

Let me grab my pearls right quick; Oh my god you have 2 (DA/TA/QA/theoreticalsuboptimaloption) in your tp set, the humanity. The dps loss is unforgivable. *Faints*

Start foaming at the mouth when a cor rolls a 9 instead of an 11, dear Christ. Relax.

Your math is undeniable. Outside of Ukon AM3 builds (which for most use-cases is less damage than Upheaval/Savage spam), your typical split is 20/80 white dmg/WS dmg, so that QA isn't doing much for you. At best you're getting what, 6% QA (windbuffet +1, Niqmaddu, Balder +1), while sacrificing a 100% DA build where every other swing is +35% damage? Still not as good (dmg-wise) as a QA, but QA isn't dealing twice as much dmg as a DA either.

What it is doing, is preventing you from achieving a predictable and consistent weapon skill cycle where you can anticipate hitting your WS macro at the same interval every time, all for a 6% chance to WS in 1 attack round instead of 2. I only have 3 merits in DA, so this would put me at an 87% DA rate (If someone smarter than me wants to calculate the probability of a MA between those two figures, be my guest).

I think we get lost in the sauce (math and the gui_wsdist tool) sometimes and forget practical application. If we were talking about smashing on a training dummy indefinitely, that 6% QA/87% DA build might pull ahead from a 100% DA build, I honestly don't know. I do know that the majority of things you're fighting are trash mobs that don't last longer than the attack cycles it takes to WS, and being able to consistently achieve that x-hit is worth more and feels better to me than the occasional QA proc ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm not trying to imply that a WAR should max out their QA, just saying that QA isn't bad just because WAR has DA synergy, just like I don't think QA is bad for THF because they have TA synergy.

I'm not a WAR so purely theorycrafting here, but most useful rings have 0% DA on them, so wearing Niq makes sense in near-100% of scenarios, I would think, unless you need DT on the ring slot or something?

If you have a 100% DA build with 3% QA, you still have a reliable build where you know you will always DA, but also 3% of the time, you'll get 600 free TP and some extra white damage.

@Eiryl you may not realize this since you don't actually play this game for fun, but some of us are doing this because we enjoy it and a large portion of the fun of this game is in optimizing your gearsets and coming up with your own theory of what is best, so these discussions are part of the enjoyment

I mostly agree with this, and probably all of my WAR builds use Niqmaddu anyway, 100% DA build or not, because it has some nice stuff on it even besides the QA.

I think I just value consistency of a build's performance over random spikes of goodness. Obviously great if you can have both, but given the slots you get to choose for QA, I'm typically going with STP, DW, or other forms of MA with better stats.

The crux of your argument reminds me of a conversation I think Melliny and I were having over the efficacy of MA vs OAX mythic AMs a few months ago. Seems relevant; if I can find it I'll link/post it.

@Male, we were in fact all having that conversation lol:

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/36654/for-the-shinies-a-guide-for-thief/259/#3685368

Figures, that Maletaru guy has an opinion about everything!

You're right, a lot of the same points about AM3 apply to the DA discussion, for THF at least. Same points too: DA isn't useless on THF (see: Sherida Earring), but it's less-useful. Same thing with AM3, same thing with Zanhasso, etc. etc. I think people just stick to their scripts of saying these things invalidate each other or are useless, without ever thinking about the actual practicality of it.

Thanks for another fun conversation :)

Hah!


Likewise, I appreciate a good distraction when I *should* be working :P

Are you saying this because it has low defense? I am currently using dampening tam in my TP set but I know I need to do the work to get skulker's bonnet +3 for at least the defense and evasion boost. Still, I will miss the quadruple attack +3.

Any single piece isn't changing anything. It's just not as good as it could be.

You won't suddenly take 2k extra damage because you use that over emp+3. Always being over dramatic.

Depends on the content TBH. If you're in Abyssea wear whatever you want. For anything dangerous, I would compare this to Malignance which has higher DEF, eva, meva, DT, MDB, pretty much everything. Even if you're talking about glass cannon though, even empy+2 has more acc, atk, and I'd prefer TA over QA in those quantities.

I wouldn't use dampening tam in 2024 for anything, except maybe if you're very new.

It's a buildaround piece until you have something better. Dampening tam is perfectly fine for a newer thf. Relic hat is the next step up, and then empyrean hat +3. There is nothing that compares to empyrean though. It's just so darn good.

Honestly takes a lot more time to get decent augments on a dampening tam than it does to get 10,000 gallimaufry for a +2 empy head.

Can you share your hybrid/close to 50% DT set?

ever since master levels came out i wanted to tank thf/run with foil at ML45. would like some criticism on these sets. the big question i have is nyame vs. malignance, and the issue with hp difference going from idle <> engaged. i'm thinking either you're attempting to contribute some damage and want malignance engaged (lowman etc.) or want to turtle up in nyame. could obvioiusly make both sets, but trying to keep it somewhat simple for now. here's what i have so far using malignance:

ItemSet 395339

ItemSet 395337

ItemSet 395338

especially lowman i think there could be some neat scenarios with thief's enmity tools accomplice and collaborator while trying to hold hate. haven't gone far enough yet to consider harder fights against strong enemies and several strong DDs, nor have i made a plan to hold multiple mobs beyond aeolian edge > foil spam in a cleave group.

I literally can not think of a single scenario where THF tank would ever be wanted in any capacity. You either want a tank or you don't, and anywhere a THF can tank, a WAR, DRK or SAM could do it well enough while providing 4x the dmg, which is what I assume the idea of THF tank over RUN tank is.

Obviously, THF is good at eva "tanking" big pulls to a group or for soloing Omen or something, but it seems like you want to actually tank for a small group rather than pull stuff. By all means, if you want to have fun and do it just to see, go for it, but exactly what scenario/capacity do you expect it to work and how would it be helpful over normal alternatives?

you're not wrong, mostly a theorycraft proof of concept thing. but i might try it on an aeonic clear if they let me. i'm a career thf so always looking to try something new. would take some teamwork, but other DD could /drg and super jump if necessary.

Some interesting sets. I like the Acrontica in there, I've always looked for a way to use it on DNC for tanking.

There's been a couple times our tank DC'd on the W3 boss and I've inadvertently tanked on THF. For those times, I just swap to my STP set which is 5/5 malig and STP accs, by no means specialized for tanking, but it can take a hit well enough to not get 1 shot.

For magic tanking, I'd probably do something like this:
ItemSet 395340

Your engaged set looks fine for tanking physical. Are you going for evasion? If so, I'd probably swap out Odnowa for Infused, but 10 eva probably doesn't ultimately matter. Any assumption of having mambos, assuming you're eva tanking?

Also, if you wanted to do something dumb, I have this build for mass pulls on DNC, but it can all be equipped on THF, and would work well with Gandring Path C. DT is 50/50 in this set, even with Regal gloves, so you get TP if you evade or get hit.

ItemSet 395342

no, i think it would be better in the aeonic scenario to just hold hate primarily through damage with standard DD songs, almost none of the fights really require a traditional tank. but thf really leans on malignance and nyame for defense when it is needed, so i wasn't sure how far to go.

True, and I feel like being ML 40+, I no longer rely on nyame for DEF and just go ham with Malignance. For Aeonics (HELMs), I wouldn't bat an eye at using full malignance for tanking over Nyame.

Think Shadowdancer style. I'm able to tank dynamis [d] FAIRLY well using thf/run, waves 1 and 2 without issue and NMs absolutely no problem holding hate. I have not yet tried wave 2 bosses but I'm very eager.

I'm able to be at evasion cap AND have a strong parry rate AND maintain pdt-50%...and therein lies the trick. My healer is, honestly, just regen 5 with some once and a while necessary cures.
Songs: HM VM M5 ballad3. No mambos needed.

Collaborator is an incredible tool on NMs...with flash, valliance, ja's, bully/sa ws I can hold hate as well as any pld in there.

My only shortcoming is lack of master levels to hit foil (working on it). So in massive pulls / scrums it gets a little wild. For now, the bard sleeps, i throw a protect at him, valliance or OFA is usually enough to do the trick. I think foil would make things way easier tho.

Is Sailfi Belt +1 with augments better than Reiki Yotai for TP set? I don't understand why Reiki Yotai has been used on TP sets either since it has no Triple Attack+

Thf hits max dual wield speed with the dual wield +7 of reiki yotai (after the DW job point gift). It's the best single slot item to do so, and even throws in accuracy and some stp.

If you're DW is not at cap the DA/TA from other belts wont make up for the swing speed loss.

No, Reiki is definitely better than Sailfi in every scenario possible.

Essentially, the priority for increasing DPS goes something like:
Cap accuracy > Cap delay reduction (haste, dual wield) > Increase STP/Multi-attack >>>>> increase attack/TA damage

Because of this, reducing your delay with the Reiki makes a much more significant difference in the rate at which you gain TP.

Thief gets native dual wield 3. With job point gifts it’s upgraded to native dual wield 4. That means you need 11 dual wield in your tp set before the job point gifts to cap attack speed, and 7 dual wield after you get the gift. Reiki yotai has exactly 7 dual wield and throws in some other useful to stats to boot. There is no better belt for thief to tp in.

The sailfi belt +1 is a piece that dancer uses, not thief. Dancer main job gets native dual wield 5, so anything beyond 2 more dual wield starts to hurt them because it reduces tp per hit. Dual wield is tricky in that you want to hit the delay cap exactly, without going over the required dual wield amount. Any dual wield beyond that reduces tp gained per swing without increasing attack speed, but until that point it is the best way to improve tp speed because delay reduction works on exponential gains. The difference between 75% delay reduction and 80% delay reduction is 4x base attack speed versus 5x. The first 50% delay reduction merely doubles your attack speed, meaning the final 5% delay reduction is worth the same amount as the first 50%. Sailfi doesn’t even come close to reiki for thief. The difference is actually massive.

Thief has T-4 Dual Wield... Remember seeing a chart showing Dual Wield +6 to hit cap... Could be wrong though... If you go THF/NIN is that over the cap?

DW traits (and all traits for that matter) don't stack, it just takes the highest value you have.