For The Shinies! A Guide For Thief

You are ignoring the explicitly stated context from the first paragraph that the devpost is addressing a question about TH proc rate reduction related to unequipping TH+ gear...

That "grows" was definitely a poorly chosen word on Camate's part, but it is referring strictly to the "rate that Treasure Hunter on your target increases", aka "proc rate". This proc rate is what is stated to be a "set" value, and that equipping TH+ gear does not increase the proc rate.
Paraphrasing the bolded sentence to reduce punctuation: Adding Treasure Hunter+ from any source will not increase the preset base "proc rate" at which the Treasure Hunter value increases [on a monster.]


* CurrentTH ≥ CurrentTag prevents the proc rate from getting reduced.
* The absolute max needed to cap for a job master THF is TH+10 since Gifts increase our cap to TH14 (and 0JP THF would cap at TH+8 from gear.)
* There is no difference between wearing TH+10 vs TH+96 when the CurrentTag is TH13 and you're fishing for that TH14 proc, but equipping TH+9 or less will lower the proc rate.
* The proc rate reduction also gets worse the further below your CurrentTH is compared to the CurrentTag.
* The devs WANT us to need to fulltime TH gear in order to maximize effect. This is to increase the gameplay value of TH+ gear.

As I said before. It could just mean exactly what they said. If you had TH8 and unequipped your TH gear and you get TH3 then it's harder to get TH9 to proc when you only have TH3. I think you are reading too much into this and convinced yourself about it.

I don't see anything supporting TH gear higher than 8 can do anything. Of course, someone could run a proc test with TH8 vs TH9 gear to see if there is a difference. Maybe I will get to it once I start farming with Thf.

maybe they are confused when we say thgear vs thtrait.

thgear statement does not include what you get natively.

That devpost isn't the only time they've talked about Treasure Hunter. In the update notes that introduced the TH cap (March 2018) they make no mention of there being a separate cap for proccing purposes, just a mention of a total value of +8 (including the base trait) for THF mains. I believe they've also mentioned the TH8 cap in lower profile official posts, but I'd have to dig that up.

There was also testing done here a while ago regarding TH above 8 and proccing (I believe by Melphina), but the test results could go either way, when the would think having that big of a difference would be immediately obvious if TH totals above 8 mattered for proccing purposes.

Camate's post doesn't linger on the topic of caps at all, so that's not a point for or against your argument.

Results by melphina seemed to hint what Nyarl has been tryin to say so far.
But the sample, while not small, wasn't large enough to be 100% sure, just like Geriond said.
It kinda makes sense though and it confirms what a lot of people had been reporting (out of personal experience) even before Melphina did the test.

I think it's quite likely that's how things work, not sure it's gonna be worth it most of the times though. Maybe once we get reforged empy+3 feet?

Maaaaaaan.. send me on a wild goose chase why don'tcha.. It was March 2014. -_-;; Here's the full text about TH for reference's sake:

It's still a completely different topic.

Maximum cap is unrelated to rank up rate.

There's still nothing stated whether wearing TH+90 will get you from TH13 to TH14 faster than TH+8.

Logic would state that it probably doesn't. It's just not fact. Also entirely possible that even if intended to be, that it's not actually working as intended.

Wear it if you want to, it is placebo hunter after all, all items are 50%, they either drop or they don't.

2017 Official Forum JP post:

• The maximum TH level applied by a main job THF from the first attack is TH8, any gear equipped beyond TH8 has no meaning

• Max base TH: THF(8), Other Jobs(4), Pet/Other(1)

• Must be main job THF to raise TH level (lvl 15+)

• The higher the player's TH level, the more likely it is that the TH increases

• The greater the difference between the applied TH level and the TH level equipped, the easier it is to raise TH level

• TH can increase during: regular attacks, WS, SA/TA

• For multi-hits, only the first hit has a chance of raising TH level

• SA/TA has a higher than normal chance to raise TH

Above confirms that the initial TH proc is hard-capped at TH8. Any boosts beyond that are from increasing TH via procs while equipping TH gear.

Source: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/353-%E6%95%99%E3%81%88%E3%81%A6%EF%BC%81%E9%96%8B%E7%99%BA%E3%81%95%E3%82%93%EF%BC%81?p=602826&viewfull=1#post602826

Your understanding is correct according to the original Japanese.

"プレイヤーのトレハンレベルが高いほど、攻撃などによるトレハン上昇が上限レベルに早く到達する可能性が高まる。※ギフトのないシーフの場合は、トレハン上昇上限は12。"

"The higher the player's TH level, the higher the possibility that TH level is increased faster via attacks, etc. *the max TH level for THF with no gifts is 12"

Didn't Melphina test this and show the difference is negligible?

From her tests the difference was pretty negligible indeed =/

I'm pretty sure you guys buying into a placebo effect. From the testing I did before I'm confident that adding a lot of extra treasure hunter beyond 8 has either such a negligable impact it's irrelevant, or it has no impact at all. I guess I'll try to finish my data collection for the test though. The reason I stopped my project midway was because it takes an absurdly long amount of time to gather a large sample size. I basically just send Melliny to the apex raptor camp and yank a matamata then afk while auto attack melees it down for 5-6 minutes. I get roughly 100 swings per minute and have to pull a new mob every 6. It's fairly tedious. But I've still got my old chart and I've added some new data today. I'll try to finish the project sometime. The raw numbers are here. I suppose I'll make a thread for it when all is said and done to showcase the results. It'll take a while though. There's probably another 6-8 hours minimum of this before I'd call my sample size complete.

Treasure Hunter Testing

I'm starting with adding to the the worn TH 14 numbers for now because that's where I have fewest mobs on. You'll notice the average number of swings per mob has gone down after Mob 17. That's because that's where I left off testing before and since then I've updated my TH 14 gear set. Before I was using perfect taming sari and sandung, but since then I've managed to get another perfect taming sari (actually have three of em now...) so I've thrown away the old sandung and I'm dual wielding perfect taming sari's instead. I've also added perfect lucky egg to the equation, so my TH 14 numbers are actually TH 15 now. You can see the reflection of sandung's performance over perfect taming sari based on the fewer swings it takes to kill a mob. But I'm mainly concerned with total swings versus total TH levels. You can see just how closely the higher TH values correlate with larger numbers swings. However, the rate of TH increase per number of melee swings is extremely constant regardless how high I go above the TH cap. I think with a large enough sample size if this trend holds up we can put this argument to rest.

Edit: the second column in below tables is actually the number of mobs killed that reach that corresponding level of TH, not procs.

I think the sample size might be too small, but I found a blog by JP also doing testing on increasing TH level. I would agree it seems that the additional value of increased TH levels is really negligible.

They tested three scenarios:
1. TH8: 285 Apex Mobs
2. TH16: 232 Apex Mobs
3. TH21: 303 Apex Mobs

Scenario 1: TH8 Test


Scenario 2: TH16 Test


Scenario 3: TH21 Test


Totals. Highest numbers in red.


Notes: Because the TH21 gear used has a higher triple attack rate, it could be that the triple attack rate is distorting the proc rate because Dev post says that TH can only proc with first hit. The TH21 gear set used has higher Triple Attack than the TH8 or TH16 set. Also, they say it's difficult to tell from logs when TH procs sometimes because according to enspell II tests, it has been proven that the log doesn't necessarily show the exact order of how things proc.

Funny how 8 and 16 are quite similar. One would expect 21 to outperform both if the total amount of TH made a difference, but it doesn't seem all that crazy of a difference.

Source: https://ffxilogdialy.hatenablog.com/entry/2019/12/22/143725

They need to test th3 only as well, after hitting once with th8, imo

I think th3 vs th8 after setting 8 is a more important choice to make, especially since th8 can be full timed with just hands and a perfect sari offhand or the new th egg

With the data I've added this morning it looks like it's completely irrelevant. As far as I can see adding treasure hunter beyond TH +8 is utterly useless. I'll do a summary when I hit say... 40 mobs in each side.

It's also a matter of not knowing exactly how the proc system works.
"Boosting" is a generic thing and can be interpreted in two separate ways

1) It gives a certain amount of additional % chance to proc a TH levelup
2) It helps reducing the decrease in the % chance to proc a TH level up once you leve lup


The assumption behind 2 is a fact. The more you level up, the more rare the TH level ups become, meaning that the chance to get a TH levelup is reduced the further you proceed past 9.


Let's start from saying that JP themselves say that TH5+ from gear alone helps with TH levelups, unless we want to believe there's a bug and it's not working, I think we should trust them.
We just don't know how it helps.

Regardless of how it does it, it seems that the help it provides is pretty irrelevant, from Melphina's tests.
If only we could develop a logger/bot/addon that allows anybody to afk for a few hours and create logs, then all these logs could be merged together and then we would have quite a considerable amount of overall data, despite each of us doing a small, realistic part in the whole process.

Havent read your numbers yet (at work)
but does the number says anything about using less than th8 for additional proc rater (after striking it once with TH8)?

not getting into the situional of it like Dyna lag and mobs melting to fast so its better to just keep TH8 on it for landing the the base TH.
just the pure mechanics ?

Appreciate your work in data gathering

Didn't your test show TH8 did not ever achieve the same same th levels as the column on the right?

Your excel clearly shows that the gearset on the right achieves higher levels of TH?

Their data shows that average number of melee attacks being higher equates to higher number of procs.

556 attacks to hit average TH10 w/ TH8
vs
632 attacks to hit average TH11 w/ TH14

Which is basically exactly what you expect, it takes longer to kill with worse dps. And taking longer to kill = higher TH.

If you look at the second set of TH14 numbers (better dps)((no lolsandung)) the average attacks go down and the average TH with it.

I don't remember the specific set of armor mel wore, but I'd like to see a more static set, just for arguments sake. to try to keep Xa/dps as close as possible.

50 kills in TH8 (Su5+Su4 5/5 malig no belt, no ring, no ammo + kabob to balance attack+)
50 kills in THmore (Su5+Su4 4/5 malig relic+3 hands, lucky egg, chaaq belt, gorney ring)

You just have analyze the data. Eiryl summed it up pretty well. The reason for the higher TH numbers was simply because with just TH 8 gear I have better DPS than TH 14, because chaac belt, gorny ring, and especially empyrean feet and sandung are bad at dealing damage. Look at the average number of swings on the right when TH rises higher, versus the average number of swings on the left where TH is lower. The correlation is there. I've also marked where I resumed testing with a second perfect taming sari versus my old sandung. As the average swings per mob go down and the average TH level goes down in correspondence.

What I want to see is the aggregated data when all this is done and over with. Specifically these measurements

--Total TH Procs
--Total swings in the entire set
--Average Swings per mob
--Average treasure hunter level per mob
--Average number of swings to get a treasure hunter proc (IE proc rate)


That last one is the most critical, because it's the basis of what this discussion is about, and what the testing aims to determine. I want to answer the question, does adding more treasure hunter gear beyond TH 8 affect the rate which TH procs on melee swings. And from what I'm seeing so far, it looks like the answer is going to be a solid no.

Ok, so I've completed gathering the data for my testing. I've posted a separate thread here with a bunch of aggregated numbers and some analysis.

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/55788/treasure-hunter-proc-rate-testing-th-8-versus-14/1/#3568373

To summarize the data for those who don't feel like reading a wall of text, I collected a sample size of about 23,500 hits with treasure hunter 8, and 25,000 with treasure hunter 14. The treasure hunter proc rate was virtually identical between the two, so much that it almost cements this statement in stone


When I wore treasure hunter + 8, the growth rate was 1 proc in every 231 swings. When I wore treasure hunter + 14 in the proc rate was one proc in every 225 swings. For something that occurs that infrequently on average, a sample size of 25,000 per set is still pretty small. Yet the difference between the two is a measly 2.5%. This is more than within a statistical margin of error. So for what it's worth, I do hope this can help put this debate to rest. It truly appears that wearing more than Treasure hunter +8 in equipment has...literally no effect whatsoever on proc rate and that the game really does increment treasure hunter at a set value. Get your treasure hunter 8 gear on. Proc to 8 and be happy when the game gives you the occasional boons. It looks like that set rate may very well be either one in 225 or 1 in 230.

So in summary. We should fulltime th+8 gear or we should initial proc in th+8 gear and move into a fulltime DPS set?

That depends on your goal. If you want to proc more often, stay in your TH set. If TH8 is good enough, go into your DPS set.

A THF should prioritize TH over dps. (when TH matters)

And as you can do that with 2 pieces of gear, that is optimal.

It is worthwhile to lose a couple dps to fulltime relic+3 hands and egg when TH matters.

When does TH matter? When it does. lol. Things that have drops.

Stuff's situational? Does the mob you're fighting have something you desperately want to drop? Is it a rare mob like dynamis volte gear, or something you can spam? The point is that if you wear more than treasure hunter +8 in equipment the only thing you're doing is shunting your own DPS and not getting any benefit from it.

In my case, whenever I'm fighting something I want to proc beyond treasure hunter +8 or even just get TH +8 on as many things as possible I fulltime the relic gloves and perfect lucky egg. Dynamis and omen trash mobs die so fast it's not even worth my time to tag and swap, and they're currently the only category of mob worth treasure hunter-ing anyway. But if there was a NM with a treasure hunter affected drop... the point is that plunderer's armlets +3 and perfect lucky egg are the way to go. Wearing the empyrean feet or slipping in gorney ring or chaac belt all kinds of wonky stuff is unnecessary if you have the gloves and egg. That's literally all you need to know.



Exactly this. As Eiryl says.... if it matters it matters, if it doesn't it doesn't. The relic gloves are a good piece of equipment that provide massive piles of raw stats, and perfect lucky egg over a different ammo is a miniscule loss. Sure it's no adhmenar gloves +1 or malignance, but if you care about treasure hunter then you care about treasure hunter. Either you care or you don't, and when you do, you really should just fulltime the two pieces. Seriously... it's not a big deal to do it. Trust me. I do it all the time in dynamis... and I do just fine in my DPS. Way WAY more than just ...fine tbh.

I guess what I was looking for was more compelling results to justify staying in th+8 gear over the initial proc and swap methods. Perhaps a different argument all together. My thoughts are to make the best DPS/hybrid sets that INCLUDE +8TH gear and consider those to be BiS for the job.

Ok now im really confused. relic hands and lucky egg = 5.

I thought that you were arguing to wear +8 in gear. Not +8 total (including trait)?

Literally this. Or for defensive sets, swap in 4/5 malignance and keep the relic hands. Literally optimal treasure hunter builds. And that's all there is to it. The DPS loss is extremely small.... near nonexistent really for those "I actually care about treasure hunter" mob kills.

ItemSet 378441