Yes I was obviously only interested in scenarios where apex is actually applicable. I am undecided on which I will upgrade first. Obviously Apex is weaker than Fudo assuming a neutral target so why would I be asking whether or not I should use a weaker WS with no benefit?

I wasn't looking for sweeping generalities though, I was after a direct comparison.

Apex is not used anywhere in the analysis. Though, I don't think it's an idea that should be needlessly thrown out. (To stacked Apex with a AM3 of Koga or Masa.) Apex is weaker than Namas, but based on mob weaknesses, Apex is sometimes stronger than Fudo. I don't see AM3 Masamune or Koga + Apex spam being a bad idea without some sort of analysis. It really depends on how far Apex arrow damage is versus Namas and sometimes the differences are as low as 300-500 (but sometimes as high as 1k+). I realize that this may require a lot of if/then/and buts. However, it was really never formally tested and analyzed.

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There are several ways to approach of these NM's. In Daku(shark), the options are the following:

1. Any G.kat from start to finish (Fudo)- I used Koga as the model
2. Tsuru/Yoichi from start to finish (using exclusively Namas)
3. Different combination at different %'s.

The point that I'm trying to make is that no matter what G.kat you use on this NM, if you use it from the start to the finish, it's going to lose to the Tsuru/Yoichi combo using Namas from start to finish, and especially so if you use Fudo with Tsuru from 75->50%. REGARDLESS whether this NM has a piercing weakness. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but daku doesn't have "weakness phases". It has "penalty" phases. Slashing Penalty phase is from 25%->0% and Piercing penalty phase is from 75%->50%.) Penalty phases correct. Weakness phases, incorrect since I was looking for larger (tojil like) differences:


(If that's the case, it's likely, 100%->75% Namas, 75%-50% Fudo, 50%->0% Namas.)

As far as I know, this was an unknown because we didn't have a model and didn't know whether SAM can get the attack (or acc) high enough to perform these values on these NM's.

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Tojil
The advantage gained from 75%->50% using a Yoichi is very large and the combination of Tsuru/Yoichi using Namas during this phase (and fudo with the rest) vs Koga AM3 (from start to finish) favors Tsuru/Yoichi. This may depend also on the amount of slashing/piercing/blunt players you have in your ally. The advantages here are not as obvious as Daku. Until now, this was also an unknown since SAM could not hit this NM with a bow WS and even then, I had expected that the attack down aura would have likely crushed Namas damage. It came to a surprise to me that the averages could reach 10k even with the attack down aura. Knowing the inherent disadvantages of the attack, I felt it was important and worth mentioning.

It's not necessarily weaker. If r.attack is high enough, apex will beat Fudo even on neutral targets.

Apex will only beat Fudo in Attack capped situations at lower tp values on neutral mobs. After a certain TP value, Fudo will beat Apex every time. Much like Tachi: Kaiten is the superior GK weaponskill at lower tp values, only eclipsed by Tachi: Fudo when Tp passes 153tp + Moonshade.

Someone should spread sheet that lol.

fSTR and PDIF both cap higher on ranged WS over melee. By just looking at WS Base Damage, we can already instantly estimate whether Fudo will beat Apex even at 300% TP.

WS Base Damage = floor(( Weapon Base Damage + (Ammo Damage) + fSTR(2) + WSC ) * fTP)

Base Damage:
Yoichi's Base damage: 223
Tulfaire Arrow: 65

vs.

Tsurumaru : 243

fSTR2 cap
Tsurumaru: The upper cap of fSTR is (Weapon Rank+8)
Yoichinoyumi: The upper cap of fSTR2 is (Weapon Rank+8) x 2

Tsurumaru: (27+8)=35
Yoichinoyumi: (24+8)*2=64

WSC
WSC is favoring towards Apex since Fudo is only a .6 mod vs .85 mod. There's a ton of gear variation here so I'm going just assume fSTR is going to cap and you're going to load STR for Apex instead of AGI. Assumes 200 STR for Fudo and 180 AGI for Apex to give Fudo the edge.

Fudo : 120
Apex: 153

Yoichinoyumi: ((288)+(64)+(153))*3=1515
Fudo: ((243+(35)+(120))*5.75 = 398*5.75=2288

Ostensibly, you may think the comparison is over, but it's not. The last big comparison between these two weapons is the PDIF. It's 2.25 for Melee and 3.0 for ranged.

Yoichinoyumi+Apex = 4545
Fudo: 5148 (Already without overwhelm 1.19)

At 300% TP, we should expect Fudo to beat an Apex Yoichinoyumi but where does it lie?
2.25x=4545
x=2020

1.19*398*x=2020
x=4.26

Assuming fTP is linear from 100%->200% from 3.75->4.75, the TP that Tachi: Fudo needs to beat Apex Arrow is 151% TP.

(Thanks for pointing out the overwhelm Brain, totally forgot since I wrote this one up extemporaneously).


(That's a close comparison. If we're looking at Namas Arrow, with a 1.4x modifier tacked on the end, you can see that Fudo at 300% TP will never surpass a Namas at 100% TP with capped fSTR/pDIF.)

If that's the case, you only need 223% TP if you're rocking a moonshade.

That said, looks like you forgot @ on Fudo mod, we should account for DA procs so an average is probably a better measurement stick, and there's the almighty Overwhelm on GK WSs.

Thank you for trying to hammer this down though, I would love to have numbers and situations telling me when to switch between Fudo, Namas, Kaiten, Apex, Shoha, etc depending on stats, TP, TP Bonus, and mob direction.


No, I don't plan to use Apex ever again, but I'm sure a lot of SAMs would love to have the numbers on it.

Few things bugging me in that comparison:

1) That STR is pretty low for Fudo. An average capped Fudo set with Boost-STR and Hasso will have 268 STR; more if you include minuets + BRD AF3 set bonus and/or food. That AGI is a bit low for Apex also, but not as big a difference for your Fudo STR. Should be around 187, but if by "I'm going just assume fSTR is going to cap and you're going to load STR for Apex instead of AGI" you're counting swapping Stormsouls/Altdorf's/Wilhelm's for Pyrosoul/Vulcan's then obviously it'll be a bit lower.

2) It seems you forgot to include elemental gorgets/belts in your fTP values.

3) Your fSTR2 cap for Yoichi is too high; it looks like you included the ammo damage in the weapon rank. fSTR2 for Yoichi would cap at 64.

4) You should include Phorcys's WSD% to both WSs and Overwhelm to Fudo.

The WS DMG% should be a wash since it's its own step right?

Actually, how does it stack with overwhelm?

1. I'd give you 235. The WHM can easily give you Boost-AGI also. I can also easily hit 220 agi without the buff. As I said, lots of gear variations. I still think I was fair.

2. I omitted gorgets since I was originally planning on a quick and easy comparison on "Who's the winner?". As I had mentioned, it started as extemporaneous and I thought the answer was clear even without the minutia. (2*.097)/5.75 vs (2*.097)/3 is still a really small number and something I'd still easily omit.

3. Yep, and so I did (and fixed)

4. WSD% would have been applied to both equations at the end. Adding a ratio to the end of wouldn't have made a difference because I used ratios when comparing the two WS's.


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The interesting take home message that came up in that calculation though is that this only takes into account when you actually have overwhelm. If you're directly fighting a mob, and TPing at 100% TP, it's likely that the Fudo is stronger just on the fact that it can double attack (and the 25% TP moonshade).

But when you're not facing the mob... And both WS's are fired at 100% TP, given these parameters (cap fstr2 and PDIF), I could easily prefer using Apex over Fudo. One overwhelm WS loss is a 1k damage mistake (which happens since some NM's have nasty conal moves).

I post these things because these demonstrate tactical ideas that have very large effects on damage. This brings up this peeve: the SAM forums reduce itself to "what piece of gear is the best for my WS/TP set?". Details of gear can always be plug and chugged away with Motenten spreadsheets. I fail to see the fanaticism that people have with the differences of x amount of DA which vs x amount of STR that leads to 10 DPS differences on 10 different type of mobs. While these differences are not irrelevant, they are highly inconsequential in the ability of people to deal good damage. As you can see from the above my above post, you can turn Samurai completely on it's head and use Apex instead of Fudo. With these tactics, when not in the position to overwhelm, you can create large advantages. Those 1k advantages happen in 1 second and not highly randomized over 1 minute for 600(+-600) damage.

I post so that people can see a different perspective. A different way of looking at Samurai, not as a "gear it this way", but in a more elegant, tactical aspect. These macroscopic ideas are what create good damage dealers. The extra STR, DA, extraneous stats only allow you to have slightly better odds than people that have the same tactics that you employ in a highly randomized game. These tactics and how, even how you arrange your macros, have a lot more to how much you deal than these silly conversations about these +- STR,DA, etc. Using entirely different WSs combinations with different body positions/distances at different mob%'s is a really fascinating part of the game that have a lot more to dealing more damage than grinding away at 2% DA on otronif.

I wish people would see this aspect of the game... that if the tactics was large enough to see, you'd see it. We've all become DPS spreadsheet zombies and there's a lot more to this game than that. If you need to struggle to through the minutia in order to find a small difference, it probably wasn't big enough of a difference to be worth your time.

I have a few Questions to ask for anyone who has good spread sheet kung fu.

What TP% and Attack range do WSes become more viable than others?

I've found that Kaiten is superior to Fudo when TP is less than 153 (While using Moonshade on Fudo) It was very easy to do because those WSes both are Single hits without Attack bonuses and same WSC.

Now I have to bring in Shoha, with its attack Bonus, scaling TP, and multihit nature, and Namas with its ranged pDIF and fSTR2 value.

Where do I even start to range these WSes?

Keityan, for your Tsuru/Yoichi119 setup presumably the archery skill and racc stats on Yoichi119 covers the racc issue for SAM so prelude is not necessary?

Yeah, prelude is not necessary with the set that I'm using. In fact, we don't even use hunter's roll for these NM's:

ItemSet 310503

I may make modifications in the R.acc set depending on when I get off my lazy butt and go through my parses (I have a ton of parses to shuffle through because we do 5-6 bosses per night). But, based on what I see so far, if r.acc was needed, it's easily compensated by the player in gear so there is no need for preludes.

(For Tojil, what I'm seeing typically is many parses that most are 100% acc and some at 85% because of 1 miss. I just need to add the hits/misses and average them up.)

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Update on Dakuwaka strategy:

Previously, I was testing the use of Tachi: Fudo vs Namas Arrow on Daku during the Slashing weakness phase. The results of this test is this:

Despite the weakness to slashing between 49%-25%, it is still better to use Namas Arrow over Tachi: Fudo.

Therefore, it is best to use
100->75 = Namas Arrow
74->50% = Tachi: Fudo
49%->25% = Namas Arrow
25%->0% = Namas Arrow

Because kaiten makes a less annoying sound that fudo, of course!

It works well with Namas Arrow. If you have a Yoichi and are outside of Adoulin it'll be your best GK. With SE looking to expand content outside of SoA areas, it's more of an investment for the future.

Was told today Amano was the best gkt (outside of koga) using tardus grup? Yet I see no sets here with it?

Have not been playing much, but looking into getting back into the game with the next update.

I don't see how with Ionis, adding 3% delay would effect your build enough to beat 3% DA from Duplus, or the possibility of swapping out some STP by using Rose. Amano is a powerful weapon, but it's delay isn't what's hurting it in comparison to it's competition.

Would Kogarasumaru from 100->50% (without WSing 100-75) work better than tsuru/yoichi equipped the entire fight to jump straight into AM3 with meikyo during slashing bonus/piercing resist?

If you're talking about Daku, the only time it's useful to use any sort of g.kat WS is during 75%->50% even despite the slashing bonus at 50%-25%.

If you're talking about Tojil, the best scenario I see is
100%->75% (Koga)
75%->50% Tsuru/Yoichi
Meikyo (and cancel)
50%-0% (Koga)

I had also considered:
100%->75% (Koga)
75%->50% Tsuru/Yoichi
50%->0% Masamune with some sort of aftermath

Really hard to judge whether the 2 extra WS during slash weakness would be enough to compensate in such a fast fight. Our LS also wildcards after 75%, so the first scenario won't always happen because I'd like a 2nd SP reset.

Umm, I'm sorry but it's always better to use the mythic. The sense of superiority / desire to justify your investment enhances your reflexes and leads to a better overall parse.

Also, swag.

I mean, still use Namas Arrow, but don't use Tsurumaru so you can immediately transition into AM3 for slashing phase of tojil/-piercing for Daku.

btw just did bee first time with yoichi. 1388 dps, 7775 ws average. holy *** ***

I can imagine doing this for Tojil since the piercing phase is only 25%. The human error of changing g.kat's in this type of haste is likely enough to compensate for the loss of DPS in ~30 seconds of damage.

I don't imagine doing this with Daku. The only problem with that is with Daku, the -piercing phase is sandwiched between two Namas Phases. It's basically a "reversed" Tojil. For the mere 25% you'd use the G.kat for aftermath for such a short period of time makes it inconsequential. Yoichi is used for most of the fight and Tsuru isn't all that bad.

Is Namas still stronger than Fudo even with AM2-3? I had pretty respectable damage on Fudo during the slashing phase of Daku. It fell a bit short compared to Namas but I feel like with AM2-3 it might make it just as good, if not better due to increased TP rate

Did you have prelude with that? I remember trying Apex on this with Spelgan when it first came out without preludes and that didn't bode so well.

Wasn't that before everything got skill+ vomitted all over it?

Yeah, had prelude for entire zone. My average should have been a bit higher but food dropped out in the last min (out of a 3min fight) and my Namas dropped from 8k to 6k.

Isn't Namas more accurate than Apex anyway?

I remember trying after the update and I was still missing a bunch of Apexes without Preludes.

Yes.

Have you tried the zone before w/o preludes with ilevel Yoichi? I wouldn't think it's even needed. Yoichi now has 140 extra racc on it compared to Spelgan, which is pretty much Spelgan with SV prelude x2.

I have not, that was my 2nd time doing Ceizak with Yoichi (first time I had awful buffers so ignored it) and my archery is still ~30 under cap so I didn't want to risk it. I used a single prelude because we had 7 songs and I figured that being assured that I'm capped would be more beneficial than minuet 2. I can get someone to parse it for me next time without it though, they don't seem to want to work on my PC.