[Dev] Planned Adjustments And Enmity System Explanation

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[Dev] Planned Adjustments and Enmity System Explanation
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 Bismarck.Snprphnx
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2013-02-18 16:54:44
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Siren.Kalilla said: »
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Valefor.Sapphire said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
For what reason does he say he is reluctant to disclose things like this? I mean we even calculated ourselves(as in the playerbase) most of the math behind ffxi, why do they feel it should be kept hidden?

You could potentially get to the point of having a windower plugin tell you when you are about to pull hate since it could parse an entire fight in progress and emulate the enmity formulas if they were fully disclosed.
Client side you see everyones damage, you know their distance to whats being fought, you know if they are resting, healing, if they died and lost all enmity, etc etc.
We already have basically all of the enmity formulas figured out though, as well as enmity gained through effectively any action in the game. None of what was said today can't be made to match Kaeko's figures almost number for number, sign for sign.
There were even enmity programs being created years ago, completely broken now but they were still using the formulas to calculate enmity for an entire group. I never used them so I'm not sure how accurate they are, but you could track the whole process with the chat log I'm sure.

I saw where someone was trying to make one, and for basic calculations, he could get it going. However, I don't think he could get past the gear enmity aspect of it, since swapping into more enmity gear for voke, flash, etc. would throw everything off.
 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2013-02-18 16:54:56
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Those programs were unreliable though. Since they couldn't detect the enmity-/+ gear a player may use for any given action.

So if the program assumed base enmity from a cure, but a whm was using -50 enmity, the value would be off considerably. Same for a PLD using enmity+ gear.

I suppose it could at least give you a basic idea of DD enmity though, since no DD is going to be using significant amounts of enmity gear.
ah that makes sense
 Asura.Myrrh
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By Asura.Myrrh 2013-02-18 17:05:45
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Let us dancers use shields! Let dancers use Two 2-handers! Give dancers heavy armor! Let dancers have a higher haste cap! Give dancers a one-minute impervious ja! 1 second timers on waltzes!





I have contributed nothing to this topic.
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 Ragnarok.Eriina
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By Ragnarok.Eriina 2013-02-18 17:39:43
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Keeping math "secret" is nothing more than a marketing strategy. There are players that would have quit he game long ago if they didn't have some mystery to figure out, endless testing they felt a compulsion to finish. It's a specific type of personality within the types of people who are drawns to rpgs/mmos.

I would normally assume that the less they reveal formula specifics the healthier they perceive the game to be, but in this case it may just mean the new formula will be so different that knowledge of the old one won't matter much.
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-18 17:46:17
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Ok, I understand, but at this point in time there's not much mystery left to solve, so might as well communicate always in a manner that both parties understand. No?
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-02-18 17:54:24
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Ok, I understand, but at this point in time there's not much mystery left to solve, so might as well communicate always in a manner that both parties understand. No?

Its nice for them to publish some of the math because it not only confirms what people have tested, but also is a pretty big "tip-of-the-hat" to the players. SE aknowledging that the players know thier ***is a pretty big compliment, honestly, from a company that is famous for arrogantly thinking they know more about gaming than the people who actually play the games.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-18 18:02:46
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Shiva.Paulu said: »
Need more PLDs to /heal at half casting distance to the mob.

"WTF are you doing resting!? Get up and tank this"

"I am bro".

This is more or less exactly how SMN burns worked.

That pretty much sums up FFXI, actually.
 Ragnarok.Eriina
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By Ragnarok.Eriina 2013-02-18 18:04:00
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
but at this point in time there's not much mystery left to solve...

You are definitely right that many things have been solved at a high level of confidence, but the information still isn't "perfect" in some cases even after so many years.

Look at the second page of this thread, there are plenty of posts saying "I didn't know it was like this" or "was this ever confirmed?" or "I'm glad to finally know for sure". That tells me there is still some modicum of doubt, even for all the testing.

If they revealed all the math someone would just post it on the wiki as fact and there would be no(almost no...) discussion. I mean, there's no 80 page threads about "Where on earth does raise 3 scroll come from???", for example. We just look on the wiki.

I'm not saying they "shouldn't" reveal stuff. Just saying it doesn't have any monetary benefit to them.
 Lakshmi.Rearden
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By Lakshmi.Rearden 2013-02-18 18:04:38
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Asura.Deadwing said: »
Have enmity generated decrease logarithmically as total enmity is gained-- problem solved. The people on the top of the hate list will be there because they've really generated the most hate.

Giving a specific job a higher total enmity than any other is really cheap and potentially really game breaking.
Considering modern MMO's don't have enmity caps...how is it any different? You're playing a 10 year old game, lol. They have their limitations and have to work within them.
 
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 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2013-02-18 18:17:56
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Ok, I understand, but at this point in time there's not much mystery left to solve, so might as well communicate always in a manner that both parties understand. No?
Not saying I didn't agree, just guessing why they do it~
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-02-18 18:26:43
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Asura.Deadwing said: »
Lakshmi.Rearden said: »
Asura.Deadwing said: »
Have enmity generated decrease logarithmically as total enmity is gained-- problem solved. The people on the top of the hate list will be there because they've really generated the most hate.

Giving a specific job a higher total enmity than any other is really cheap and potentially really game breaking.
Considering modern MMO's don't have enmity caps...how is it any different? You're playing a 10 year old game, lol. They have their limitations and have to work within them.

It will get around the fact that they can only code for a 30k TE cap

Edit: it's actually a little different in the sense that taking damage would do exponentially more to decrease your hate the more hate you had. Which would bring more skill to tanking imo.

Would also help dd's shed hate more quickly, but would put mages in more danger.
 Asura.Aikchan
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By Asura.Aikchan 2013-02-18 18:42:46
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Asura.Deadwing said: »
Have enmity generated decrease logarithmically as total enmity is gained-- problem solved. The people on the top of the hate list will be there because they've really generated the most hate.

Giving a specific job a higher total enmity than any other is really cheap and potentially really game breaking.

well that's how WOW tanking works... Tanks have some ability that "increase" they "enmity" cap and increase they enmity generation.

Bad or good example.. sadly it works fine, and in WoW a tank can hold agro of multiple mobs.. in FF.. you can only hold 1 mob, or get a PLD spam Circle Blade to see if can hold other than main target...
 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2013-02-18 21:37:50
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surprised that the NA community reps didn't translate this at all today... why make people wait :x?
 Odin.Rendra
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By Odin.Rendra 2013-02-18 22:16:14
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Siren.Kalilla said: »
surprised that the NA community reps didn't translate this at all today... why make people wait :x?

It's a holiday... none of them are in office today. D:
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 Cerberus.Kvazz
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By Cerberus.Kvazz 2013-02-19 01:48:12
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Valefor.Sapphire said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
For what reason does he say he is reluctant to disclose things like this? I mean we even calculated ourselves(as in the playerbase) most of the math behind ffxi, why do they feel it should be kept hidden?

You could potentially get to the point of having a windower plugin tell you when you are about to pull hate since it could parse an entire fight in progress and emulate the enmity formulas if they were fully disclosed.
Client side you see everyones damage, you know their distance to whats being fought, you know if they are resting, healing, if they died and lost all enmity, etc etc.

Back when I got into Enmity and how it worked, it was because I were sick of pulling hate as RDM healer and wanted to know why (was my only job)
I ended up making /echoes for all my cures and spells telling me how much enmity I'd get every action(aprox numbers) so I could eyeball when I were about to cap CE and had to be more careful :P
 Asura.Masekase
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By Asura.Masekase 2013-02-19 02:55:06
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Couldn't they just put a slider on mage merits and tank that can adjust enmity 5% each way ? Then just remove the enmity merits and replace with something else.
 Cerberus.Senkyuutai
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2013-02-19 03:41:26
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Cerberus.Kvazz said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
I didn't know this matter had system limitations. At least I never saw anyone mentioning it.

Probably because this is the first time they actually explain the enmity system, atleast as far as I'm aware.

Edit:
Pretty cool to see they're atually using the same numbers are Kaeko found though, just using a bit different names.
They're starting to aknowledge the work of the community often, it's a good change.

Now if they could actually release a proper "database" to group all of this and add the limitations existing in each category, that would be a huge leap.
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By Tellahchan 2013-02-19 03:54:55
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Qiqirn hat is the best headpiece for every job in every situation cause it's cute.

Avatar suddenly becomes relevant.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Zubis
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By Quetzalcoatl.Zubis 2013-02-19 04:57:28
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Odin.Rendra said: »
Siren.Kalilla said: »
surprised that the NA community reps didn't translate this at all today... why make people wait :x?

It's a holiday... none of them are in office today. D:

Plus, while I appreciate Slycer's posts, I like that the Community Team generally spend time to make the post legible instead of doing a direct translation. I don't know about you guys, but I find this post a little hard to follow.
 Fenrir.Mariane
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By Fenrir.Mariane 2013-02-19 10:03:46
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Quetzalcoatl.Zubis said: »
I don't know about you guys, but I find this post a little hard to follow.

The post has a deep technical language and translate that from Japanese to English isn't really simple. The focus is different. Slycer is trying for accuracy/literal meaning of the original post while the official reps will try more to make "players happy" with their translation than anything else.

I had no problems understanding the translated post, but I have to agree that it wasn't the easiest read ever. I suggest you check the SE forum for the official version and compare the posts later on. :)
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 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2013-02-19 15:24:09
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Tellahchan said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Qiqirn hat is the best headpiece for every job in every situation cause it's cute.

Avatar suddenly becomes relevant.


I love it :)
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 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2013-02-19 18:59:12
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02-19-2013 06:15 PM
[source]
Akihiko Matsui
Dev Team

Enmity System Explanation and Planned Adjustments

Matsui here. Sorry to keep you all waiting so long.

I'd like to take a moment to explain about the workings of the enmity system, which will include some numbers. Furthermore, I would like to touch on the aspects we are trying to adjust.

Before I get into it, I'd like you all to understand that we will not be revealing all of the formulas and inner workings moving forward. Since we are dealing with the adjustment of the enmity system, which is very large, I feel it necessary to know the fundamentals and where we are coming from, and have decided to make a special exception this time.

Due to this, writing up this post was a bit tricky and there is quite a bit of text. However, in order to deepen the discussion related to enmity, please take a moment and read over the post.



  • The Enmity System

    • Quantification
      The enmity system is such that a monster will attack the player that is threatening them the most. In order to determine which player is the most threatening, the parameter known as enmity is used to make it possible to measure and compare the amount of threat.

    • Purpose
      The enmity system is not in place to make monster AI more intelligent. It's more of a stronger significance for securing battle strategy elements by giving players a means of controlling the monster's target (to some extent).

    • Types of Enmity (Classification by the method of enmity decay)
      Depending on the method of decay, enmity in FFXI is separated into two groups and logged.

      • Time-volatile Enmity
        Enmity which decays over time.
      • Damage-volatile Enmity
        Enmity which decays when players take damage.

      Due to the fact that multiple players are generating enmity against a monster, the work of recording enmity is accomplished by creating a list for the characters. (Though I use the term “enmity list” here, this will not be popping up again in this post.) Based on this list, the monster will target (auto-attack target) the player with the highest value of combined time-volatile enmity and damage-volatile enmity.

    • Enmity related data embedded in actions (commands, magic, etc.)

      • Classification based on how it influences enmity (direct, indirect, none)
        Ignoring the type of actions that have no influence towards enmity, actions are classified into two groups based on how they influence enmity.

        • Direct
          Players perform enmity generating actions towards a monster, and the monster’s enmity for the player increases. This mainly consists of damage and enfeebling type commands.

        • Indirect
          A player performs an action towards another player that already has enmity from a monster, and enmity increases towards the player performing the action. This mainly consists of healing and enhancing type commands.

      • Classification based on how enmity increases are calculated (fixed, effect dependent)

        • Fixed
          A set value is added to time-volatile enmity and damage-volatile enmity when an action is successful. This is applies to enhancements and enfeebles that generally do not have numerical results.

        • Effect Dependent
          A set calculation is added to time-volatile enmity and damage-volatile enmity proportional to the amount of damage dealt or the amount of HP healed

  • Finally, the formula

    • Defining 1 enmity
      When we were revamping the enmity system for FFXIV I explained a bit about this, but we start out by calculating 1 enmity= 1 damage. Also, system-wise enmity will not decay.

      For FFXI on the other hand, while there is quite a bit of management work for dividing the enmity system into time-volatile enmity and damage-volatile enmity, since this isn't sufficient for the amount of damage of NM battles and such, we adopted a method of using a formula for scaling effect dependent type enmity to fixed type enmity, as well as the use of a decay system.

      With that said, 1 enmity has been set based on the principle that the amount of time-volatile enmity that decays in a single second is equal to 60 (Since the developers first began making the game on PS2, this was adopted due to the fact that the smallest unit of frame rate measurement was 1/60 seconds.). For example (I'm hesitant to give numbers, but whatevs), the job command “Provoke” is a fixed-type action, and has 1800 time-volatile enmity. This means that this amount of enmity will decay completely in 30 seconds.

    • Enmity calculation for effect variations
      For each level there is data known as standard damage which is used for enmity calculation.
      *This value was made to be almost the same damage value as the baseline value when weapon data is created (240 attack delay sword).

      The below is how enmity is calculated at the time of dealing “d” damage:
      Time-volatile enmity = 240*d/standard damage
      Damage-volatile enmity= 80*d/standard damage
      (Standard damage is obtained based on the level of the monster)

      In other words, if you are dealing standard damage every 4 seconds, time-volatile enmity is repeatedly decaying from 240 to 0. Also, damage-volatile enmity is 1/3 of the time-volatile enmity (25% of total enmity), and the coefficient value is 80.

      Currently the amount of fire power is much higher than the initially set standard, so I feel we need to rectify the situation where it is easy to reach the cap for volatile enmity by revamping the standard damage used for enmity calculations.

    • Calculation for the amount of decay of damage-volatile enmity
      When a player takes “d” damage from a monster, the damage-volatile enmity of a monster towards a player decreases.

      Damage-volatile enmity = 1800*d/player's max HP

      In other words, when a player takes the same amount of damage as their max HP, enmity decays by 1800 (one Provoke).

      *This amount can be modified by the effect of Sentinel.
      *1800 might feel a bit rough from the perspective of backline jobs.
      If we were to make this value larger, it would make it easier to get rid of enmity by damage taken, but it would make it difficult for tanks to maintain their target when they take damage. If we make adjustments to this, it will be necessary to look into setting up a special rule of sorts.
      *For healing magic, the value is half of the above calculation.

  • Other

    • Enmity increase from resting
      By distancing yourself from the targeted monster at a set distance, it's possible to make the amount of enmity generated from resting zero. The distance is approximately half the distance in which spells can be executed.

    • Enmity cap
      The enmity limit is common for all jobs and the same is true for time-volatile and damage-volatile enmity. As to whether increasing this cap will make it so players don’t get stuck at the enmity cap, since it is only possible work size-wise for us to raise the value approximately three times of what it is currently, this is not an effective way to go.

      While there were suggestions to change the cap values for each job, assuming that the suggestions were based on getting stuck at the cap, if this situation were to arise, it would ultimately boil down to whether you can or cannot maintain the target, so for the current conditions we are currently looking at pairing this with something else.

  • First step for adjustments

    • Standard damage (time-volatile)
      First, we are planning to make adjustments to the standard damage. Since we are able to set the standard damage for each level, it will be possible to only adjust this for high levels without affecting other levels.

    • Damage-volatile enmity
      After adjusting the standard damage, we will make adjustments to damage-volatile enmity.
      The ratio of time-volatile enmity and damage-volatile enmity when dealing damage or curing, as well as the amount of enmity decay when a player takes damage will be adjusted.

    • Individual commands and abilities
      If there are problems with fixed-type data we will make adjustments.

    • Content
      The time it takes to defeat a monster with double HP that takes double damage is the same as the amount of time it takes to defeat a monster with 50% HP that takes 50% damage; however, enmity-wise there are large differences. If the damage taken by a monster is suppressed too much, it becomes possible to generate a lot more enmity with actions that have fixed-type enmity as opposed to those that have effect dependent enmity. We will need to check content to see if monster parameters have been set properly with an understanding of these systems.

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 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-02-20 04:10:29
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The "upper cap" their talking about is the maximum value of a signed 16 bit integer which is 32765. Currently the cap of CE / VE is 10,000 each which was determined as being balanced for level 50 (when the engine was implemented).

Looks like their reducing the amount of enmity, specifically CE, generated from damage / healing. This is a requirement before you can remotely start to balance the system. Right now it's stupidly easy for any DD to generate 10,000 CE, we're talking two weaponskills and the melee done in between. We've known the enmity values for static tools like Provoke / Flash for a long time, and it's that knowledge that lets to compare them to damage and see that enmity gained via damage is so power as to render all other forms of enmity generation obsolete. Next they need to make the enmity gained from hate tools / JA's scale based either on level or a stat.
 Asura.Izilder
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By Asura.Izilder 2013-02-20 05:12:30
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i can just imagine the SE dev / sales meeting (2 teams that always agree to disagree!)


Sales > so guys we need more $$$ got idea ... rune fencer - its a tank class and its the shits so we want it ok

Devs > (thinking to self) lol do they know emnity is broken - bakka!

Sales > and we need a class thats the pup of mages - give em bells and call them wtf you want - either way its new and we charging $$

Devs - (thinking to self) how about we call them *** jokers - just like you ?!

Devs - (1 dev finds the balls to break the news and puts his hand up) excuse me sir - but... rune fencer wont work ....

Sales (eye balls the Dev) Why not ?!

Devs- Well ... when you asked us to give the players nice things like easy exp and ramp up DD classes with crazy weapons, before Mr Tannaka tried to take them away again ... we broke the whole hate system

Sales - (thinking FU and *** Tannaka) guys ... we ARE doing this so *** FIX IT - rune fencers the shits ok make us $$$

Devs - but we all ready have a tank class - Paladin....

Sales - Ok thanks for your time guys meetings over - time is money!
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 Fenrir.Camiie
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By Fenrir.Camiie 2013-02-20 05:19:31
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XI's devs don't need the sales department's help coming up with terrible ideas and/or good ideas with piss poor execution.
 Sylph.Mirvana
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By Sylph.Mirvana 2013-02-20 05:57:21
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Siren.Kalilla said: »
02-19-2013 06:15 PM
[source]
Akihiko Matsui
Dev Team

Enmity System Explanation and Planned Adjustments

In other words, when a player takes the same amount of damage as their max HP, enmity decays by everything, because you are now dead.
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Had to fix this one ^_^ (Unless you seriously only lose 1 voke's worth of hate from getting pancaked)
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