Which Relic Should I Make?: A Guide

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Which Relic Should I Make?: A Guide
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 Siren.Mosin
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By Siren.Mosin 2013-02-19 12:37:53
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we'll just have to agree that anything other than a Ragnarok is a waste of currency & you should feel bad.
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 Siren.Mcclane
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By Siren.Mcclane 2013-02-19 12:37:56
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It's still the best staff dd weapon in the game. It certainly has a use
 Odin.Sawtelle
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By Odin.Sawtelle 2013-02-19 13:45:32
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blm perspective:
I disagree with that phrasing. It is debatably the best Melee staff in the game (mythic might be better). However if we look at actual DD options (IE: nuking staves) we see claustrum is dismal.

Even if we give blm/sam with capped magic haste you are going be weapon skilling at about half the speed that a well geared blm is nuking. Melee gear is ***on blm so you wont be writing home about your melee dmg while you 8 hit your way up to shattersouls that do MAYBE 3/4ths of a good nuke.

Also along those lines, because I am both a masochist and a glutton, claustrum sucks cause sch can't use it.

I could arguably see using it on smn (or sch if sch could wear it) because you do not lose potetial damage by assisting w/ melee dmg while you heal.
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 Bismarck.Helel
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By Bismarck.Helel 2013-02-19 14:06:25
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And ragnarok is less effective than annihilator, especially with KC, so maybe we can get all the DRKs and WARs to /toss :O?
 Siren.Thoraeon
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By Siren.Thoraeon 2013-02-19 14:17:19
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Bismarck.Helel said: »
And ragnarok is less effective than annihilator, especially with KC, so maybe we can get all the DRKs and WARs to /toss :O?
No it's not.

For clarification:
I have seen Kclub 99Anni vs 99Rag. Anni performs exceptionally well, but it does not win, at least on hard content. Maybe on fodder, who knows.

Oh yeah, and depending on content, Drk brings much more to the table. (ie stuns, Twilight Scythe, Apocalype, damage mitigation, etc)

Rng is superior in staying out of range and dishing out the damage though. (Kraken doesn't help in that situation though.)
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-02-19 14:33:01
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Bismarck.Helel said: »
And ragnarok is less effective than annihilator, especially with KC, so maybe we can get all the DRKs and WARs to /toss :O?

The issue being you lose the advantage anni rng has as a dd by being up close melee-ing.
 Bismarck.Keityan
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By Bismarck.Keityan 2013-02-19 16:01:56
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I guess since I was cited, I might as well poke in.

Yoichinoyumi, Amanomurakumo, Kogarasumaru, Masamune, and Murasamemaru

1. Neo-Salvage, Legion, Dyna, Neo-Nyzul
Favors: Amano
The reason why I chose Amano for these events is because of the non reliance on aftermath and the use of skillchains. I'll have to split these events into 3 different aspects to describe why.

a. Legion
Favors: Amano
Situations will vary by chamber and I use all three g.kats depending on the situation, but if I had the choice between Masa/Koga/Amano, it would easily be Amano. The reason why I chose Amano is because of the use of Amano+Yoichi in Legion (but especially Mul) but also because of the high evasion of certain mobs. Koga/Masamune aftermath will be overwritten by Namas Arrow. I have not been able to replicate my successes with a g.kat with less accuracy rating. Played with good buffs, you're looking at a 2.8-2.9k Namas averages assuming you're using Shoha on the mobs that Namas no longer has advantages on (Legion Mul with 15.5 bosses). In terms of Amano/Yoichi vs OAT2-4/Yoichi, our LS runs with only one COR so we do not have hunter's roll so at the moment, there is poor info in this comparison. I have even tried to swap out the g.kat's based on the mob in Mul, and the results are poor because of sheer speed of the event and loss of aftermath/TP.

b. Neo-Salvage/Neo-Nyzul
Favors: Amano
Koga is out of the question because of the amount of walking required. This is a game between Amano and Masa. The advantages of Amano and Masa is because of the ability to self-skillchain with itself and not needing to use Kasha (which you would need to self skillchain with a Koga). With the amount of walking, it is difficult to keep Masa's aftermath up and even when you do have it up, it is the weak version of the aftermath (low duration, low ODD). Added with the fact that Kaiten at 100%TP is better than Masa at 100-125% TP (in salvage, remember you have to unlock that ear too), I give the advantage to Amanomurakumo.

c. Dynamis
Favors: Amano
Using SAM on ADL, it is once again favorable to use Amano/Yoichi. With the buffs provided (2 minuets + chaos), Namas arrow will average 4.2-4.4k (every WS will do the same) which is I have seen to be usually higher than Shoha/Kaiten averages bar those triple/quad runs. If I had not had the bow, I'd easily use Masa for this situation. (of course, this is only if you're not using a rag WAR and averaging 8k+ on mighty). With zerg situations like this, I have been wary of using Koga because the reliance on using the first Rana for a 30-60 second fight. I also play different role on SAM than other LS doing ADL because I run in without PD after the first split which allows me to do my first WS at a distance while running in with a gear swap. This biases me towards an Amano/Yoichi vs Masa.

If simply currency farming DC's /DNC lowman or with a duo, self-skillchains-- it is a decision between Amano or Masa, but once again, since there is sometimes competition and walking and Amano's strength over Masa at 100% TP, amano wins again.

Voidwatch:
Favors: Kogarasumaru/Masamune
Amano will not compete with Koga or Masamune because with Dusty Wings, the aftermath of the other two is easy to keep up. Depending on buffs, the strength of Masamune and Kogarasumaru varies. The difference in DPS is huge between Masamune and Kogarasumaru when there is no Fighter's Roll (Favors Koga). However, when both Kogarasumaru and Masamune have Fighter's Roll, most of the advantage is washed away because the addition of multistrike has diminishing returns. In these situations, on paper, Kogarasumaru still wins. However, in terms of use, it's very close with maximum buffs because you'd have to count on Kogarasumaru giving you much more "Over TP" than Masamune.

I'd say more about each individual mob in Legion granted if people were interested. I wanted to warn people that these preferences are biased based on the types of buffs I receive when I'm doing these events. My buff situations may vary from your buff situations which could drastically change the outcome of the choice of g.kat.
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 Bismarck.Keityan
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By Bismarck.Keityan 2013-02-19 16:28:12
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ScaevolaBahamut said: »
Bismarck.Amphion said: »
ScaevolaBahamut said: »
Anybody who would put 99 Amano above 99 Koga is not someone whose opinion I'd credit.
That's fine and it's your opinion, but the person in question has played FFXI since PC launch, has 99 Amano/Masa/Koga/Yoichi for his SAM and many many other Relics and Empys. Has been a part of one of the most prestigious Linkshells in the game's history that accomplished many firsts within this game. According to this person, most of the time: Koga wins in Voidwatch. Amano wins in Neo Salvage, Legion, Dyna and most roaming events. Paper math always favors Koga but real world application is a lot different. I don't want to name names but most of you can figure out who this person is. I'd appreciate not posting the name here though since I am not sure whether or not he'll want that attention. If he'd like to post within this thread, we'd all appreciate it though.

The issue is the 3-minute AM on Koga lines up with Meditate, though of course since I don't have it I can't confirm the real-world applications.

I'll be able to discuss this more when I win one from Mog Bonanza.

/swag

(T SYLOW thanks for the caveat re: Ruinator)

With meditate merited to maximum, this "line-up" doesn't quite line up. (2:30). You're better off spamming a few more WS's with meditate and just making sure at 15-10 seconds before your aftermath wears off that you're planning on TPing up to 300%.
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2013-02-19 16:39:11
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The reason Yoichi is winning in Mul isn't exactly because it's that much better than the other DDs, but the fact that it allows you to avoid most of the annoying effects, mostly stun/amnesia that the other DDs are getting hit with, allowing for a MUCH greater WS rate. It's VERY high maintenance and requires many buffs; if minuets/berserk/rolls/dia wear, you're going to see a substantial decrease in Namas damage.

Not to say that's a gimmick or a bad thing. It's exactly what has always made Yoichi SAM useful.

Bismarck.Keityan said: »
Koga only good in VW

I think you're overstating the loss Koga takes when running around. You get a free 180 TP from med to build for AM3, which will always be up when AM3 is about to go down. This is especially true for any event where you don't have a COR(salv+nyzul). AM3 will easily make up the loss of DPS from those 1-3 WS needed to build AM3.

SC damage might be a fair point if you're the only DD, but AM3 makes self SC even more possible w/o relying on med/JAs. Not to mention, Kasha>Shoha with AM3 will probably 1 shot any/all fodder mobs regardless.
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 Bismarck.Keityan
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By Bismarck.Keityan 2013-02-19 16:55:43
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
The reason Yoichi is winning in Mul isn't exactly because it's that much better than the other DDs, but the fact that it allows you to avoid most of the annoying effects, mostly stun/amnesia that the other DDs are getting hit with, allowing for a MUCH greater WS rate. It's VERY high maintenance and requires many buffs; if minuets/berserk/rolls/dia wear, you're going to see a substantial decrease in Namas damage.

Not to say that's a gimmick or a bad thing. It's exactly what has always made Yoichi SAM useful.

While I have seen the major advantage of yoichi being hateless, which does associate itself with greater damage, I do not believe this is simply the reason. I have been using Amano/Yoichi for literally years, but here are some recent examples of that many people will realize why this combination shines:

This is 14 boss Mul run (so far we can reach 15). Selecting Mantis/Harpy only for Namas arrow, Ironclad with Amano/Masa Shoha, Stanced Hahava with Murasamemaru, and Namas Arrow for Gallu:
Code
Keityan                    214314          0    214314    78.06 %      92/1    98.92 %    667/4387  2329.50
 - Namas Arrow             114188          0    114188    53.28 %      39/1    97.50 %   1631/3659  2927.90
 - Tachi: Shoha            100126          0    100126    46.72 %      53/0   100.00 %    667/4387  1889.17


Average Namas on Gallu is 2.9k. Average Namas on Harpies varies between 3.5-4.3k.

This is exacerbated if we ran with a DRG. With Angon, Namas will average well over 4.4k on the Gallu.
Code
Keityan                     22090          0     22090    91.53 %       5/1    83.33 %   4418/4418  4418.00
 - Namas Arrow              22090          0     22090   100.00 %       5/1    83.33 %   4418/4418  4418.00


In Legion Elasmoth, this is the type of averages we're looking at:
Code
Keityan                     23134          0     23134    71.62 %       5/1    83.33 %   4621/4650  4626.80
 - Namas Arrow              23134          0     23134   100.00 %       5/1    83.33 %   4621/4650  4626.80

(This is from a parse back in September 2012 before I adjusted r.ws sets).

In conclusion: Hateless spam as Iarumas had described it is once facet. But Namas damage is nothing to sneeze at. R.acc is something that is important that I had tweaked since then (so parden the 80% WS acc and low WS #). I now have 95% namas acc in my legion bow sets. Also, parden the small sample size. I actually DO have every parse saved for the past year, but I can assure you that these averages do not change at all. (Ranged attacks are very consistant)
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2013-02-19 17:13:36
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I fully understand the damage potential. Those are probably all with SV minuets, which isn't possible anymore due to the locking nerf. And most with berserk up, which obviously isn't possible 100% of the time, either.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-19 17:22:54
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So, would this mean our consensus regarding whether or not to make Amano is "no; you would get more out of 90 Masa + 99 Yoichi"?
 Cerberus.Detzu
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By Cerberus.Detzu 2013-02-19 17:24:59
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Siren.Mosin said: »
we'll just have to agree that anything other than a Ragnarok is a waste of currency & you should feel bad.

It's not as if a relic is hard to make nowadays. Plus some people don't like to play DRK or WAR, it would be a waste for them to make a Ragnarok.
 Siren.Thoraeon
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By Siren.Thoraeon 2013-02-19 17:27:22
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Cerberus.Detzu said: »
Siren.Mosin said: »
we'll just have to agree that anything other than a Ragnarok is a waste of currency & you should feel bad.

It's not as if a relic is hard to make nowadays. Plus some people don't like to play DRK or WAR, it would be a waste for them to make a Ragnarok.
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 Cerberus.Detzu
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By Cerberus.Detzu 2013-02-19 17:31:59
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ScaevolaBahamut said: »
So, would this mean our consensus regarding whether or not to make Amano is "no; you would get more out of 90 Masa + 99 Yoichi"?

If I recall, people showed that Yoichi aftermath overwrites Masa's aftermath, wouldn't this erase all the advantage of Masamune?
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 Bismarck.Keityan
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By Bismarck.Keityan 2013-02-19 17:39:08
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
The reason Yoichi is winning in Mul isn't exactly because it's that much better than the other DDs, but the fact that it allows you to avoid most of the annoying effects, mostly stun/amnesia that the other DDs are getting hit with, allowing for a MUCH greater WS rate. It's VERY high maintenance and requires many buffs; if minuets/berserk/rolls/dia wear, you're going to see a substantial decrease in Namas damage.

Not to say that's a gimmick or a bad thing. It's exactly what has always made Yoichi SAM useful.

Bismarck.Keityan said: »
Koga only good in VW

I think you're overstating the loss Koga takes when running around. You get a free 180 TP from med to build for AM3, which will always be up when AM3 is about to go down. This is especially true for any event where you don't have a COR(salv+nyzul). AM3 will easily make up the loss of DPS from those 1-3 WS needed to build AM3.

SC damage might be a fair point if you're the only DD, but AM3 makes self SC even more possible w/o relying on med/JAs. Not to mention, Kasha>Shoha with AM3 will probably 1 shot any/all fodder mobs regardless.
Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
I fully understand the damage potential. Those are probably all with SV minuets, which isn't possible anymore due to the locking nerf. And most with berserk up, which obviously isn't possible 100% of the time, either.

Most of these are without SV Minuets (lower chambers especially). With Angon, and regular minuets, you'll make gallu 4.4k's. Harpies are without SV Minuets, but more attack can mean the difference between 3.6k namas and 4.4k namas. But 2.9k Gallu is with SV minuets but can spike higher than 3k with lucky rolls and other misc buffs (no angon).

If I had used Tachi: Shoha on the mobs that I had chosen to use Namas Arrow in the parses, I can guarantee that you will never achieve 2.7-2.9k Shoha averages.
 Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2013-02-19 17:39:50
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Cerberus.Detzu said: »
ScaevolaBahamut said: »
So, would this mean our consensus regarding whether or not to make Amano is "no; you would get more out of 90 Masa + 99 Yoichi"?

If I recall, people showed that Yoichi aftermath overwrites Masa's aftermath, wouldn't this erase all the advantage of Masamune?


Correct Masa/Koga+Yoichi don't mix.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-19 17:42:44
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Cerberus.Detzu said: »
ScaevolaBahamut said: »
So, would this mean our consensus regarding whether or not to make Amano is "no; you would get more out of 90 Masa + 99 Yoichi"?
If I recall, people showed that Yoichi aftermath overwrites Masa's aftermath, wouldn't this erase all the advantage of Masamune?

Well I never said you'd use them at the same time, silly.
 Siren.Mcclane
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By Siren.Mcclane 2013-02-19 17:45:55
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But that's what makes Amano/Yoichi work so well together. You can use them both interchangeably without sacrificing much.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-19 17:56:00
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This thread is about "Should I Make This Relic", not "Should I Make All the Relics".
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 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2013-02-19 18:05:10
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Bismarck.Keityan said: »

Most of these are without SV Minuets (lower chambers especially). With Angon, and regular minuets, you'll make gallu 4.4k's. Harpies are without SV Minuets, but more attack can mean the difference between 3.6k namas and 4.4k namas. But 2.9k Gallu is with SV minuets but can spike higher than 3k with lucky rolls and other misc buffs (no angon).

Mind posting some full parses?

Iron posted a comprehensive parse here of multiple runs with an average Namas of 1888. It'd be interesting to know how you're averaging 1-2K~ more than him.
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By Gimp 2013-02-19 18:25:02
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ScaevolaBahamut said: »
Yeah, but GoT actually does damage.

true but myrkr is a miniature vicar's drink also it's kind of an apples and oranges thing honestly.

and of course spirit taker does damage also
 Bismarck.Keityan
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By Bismarck.Keityan 2013-02-19 18:48:40
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The reason why his namas average is so much lower might be because he did not pick on when namas will have the greatest advantage. Had I had the "entire" parse that he had posted instead of a screenshot, I would have done a mob by mob run down on exactly what he did.

Most of the advantages that he claims comes from the only mob that has significant stuns/amnesia which is the Botulus. I use a Mura for this mob (not saying which one is better or not yet, I recall doing 1.2k namas with berserk on Botulus a few months ago-- but this is fuzzy memory and I'd have to dig through the parses). The reason why I use Mura for this is because I save Berserk for when the Botulus is 50%, taking advantage of Shoha's attack boost. This way, Berserk is up full time on the Gallu because the Namas damage increase is way more substantial on Gallu. (If berserk is down, Namas will do 2kish or less instead). By timing the abilities this way, Gallu's will always have a berserked Namas which increases damage by 1k which is a greater increase than Namas does on Botulus. Berserk will recast midway each Botulus.

I do not Namas Ironclad or the Hahava type mobs. (Sometimes I namas the ironclad depending on buffs) but Hahava it's usually Amano or Mura. (There's no reason to use namas on a piercing resistant mob)

I sent you a pm on GW Ejin about parses.
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 Cerberus.Corphish
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By Cerberus.Corphish 2013-02-19 19:12:39
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Feedback post : Eagerly anticipating Mjollnir analysis. :E
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-19 19:53:30
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Cerberus.Corphish said: »
Feedback post : Eagerly anticipating Mjollnir analysis. :E

Figure out the networkx python library for me and I'll write it w
 Bismarck.Kelhor
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-19 20:21:07
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Man, *** Python.
 Odin.Registry
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By Odin.Registry 2013-02-19 20:43:14
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Bismarck.Kelhor said: »
Man, *** Python.
SOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH THIS.
 Bismarck.Amphion
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By Bismarck.Amphion 2013-02-19 21:27:08
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I think Keityan's Amano/Koga/Masa analysis should definitely be added to the Amano tab. It might not follow the thread convention that Sylow worked out for these write ups, but it's still very informative and honest. Most importantly it's coming from someone with access to all the SAM weapons, and that's really as good as you can get.
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By Phoenix.Dramatica 2013-02-19 22:00:16
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Saying that Koga is only optimal in voidwatch is quite inaccurate though. There are plenty of situations in which it will have a clear lead, especially if you have a brd or embrava.
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