Which Relic Should I Make?: A Guide

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Which Relic Should I Make?: A Guide
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-02-14 00:18:01
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Well I saw the Zehreh, which is pretty top tier, so assumed that's what you were aiming for. As for easy requiescat pieces though, there are 13 MND legs from meebles, I forget the name. And dilaramn's probably better for feet. Twilight mail also is likely a better body choice. For CDC wanion and moonshade come to mind, ear would be close depending on dDEX from jupiter's pearl, but likely 95% of the time in moonshade's favor.

Not trying to destroy your analysis or anything
 Bismarck.Kelhor
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-14 00:21:55
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I appreciate the feedback. I'd like to think I mostly know what I'm doing, but I'm well aware that I have a lot still to learn.

It comes down to practicality on the set. My Req set is mostly based on inventory concerns - I'm 78/80 on PLD basically all the time - and partly on the fact that I never, ever, get buffs. The extra attack on Phorcys body and legs matters. Pensee earring is there because it's free and useful for spells (Divine Emblem + Holy is handy).
 Bismarck.Kelhor
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-14 00:26:13
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Oh, and I included the Fulad-Zereh because it's buyable. That's why it got the nod and some other things didn't.

/arbitrary, I know
 
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 Bismarck.Kelhor
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-14 00:33:05
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It does sound like I should re-do the math with max sets, though ;)
 Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2013-02-14 01:00:06
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Wait, what's this about spreadsheets?
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-14 01:03:06
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Something of Note:

When doing comparisons between weapons, if the Empyrean Weapon is a contender, it may be worth mentioning how it stacks up to the 90 version.

Reasoning: I have the resources to make a single 99 relic for a single job and I spend most of my time on jobs A and B. If 90 Empyrean A is competitive with 99 Relic A , then in my particular case it might be a better investment to upgrade Relic B. So in the case of Excalibur what is the comparison between Excalibur 99 and Almace 90? Is the difference more pronounced for one job over another?

Similar "resource competition" questions:

For Gjallarjorn obviously if one is serious about playing BRD, you want both harp and horn. But if you can only have one, which is more significant? Is 99 harp alone better than 90 harp + 99 horn? I think this sort of question is important to consider.

For Aegis obviously the two shields don't exactly compete, but how does PLD fare without Aegis and Ochain only? What is the cost to the job's playability if you only have the "free" option? What roles does having an Aegis open up over just having Ochain?

We don't have to address all of this for every weapon but I think it's worth discussing where applicable.
 Siren.Barber
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By Siren.Barber 2013-02-14 02:41:04
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This might be a bit much to ask (especially with the rumor of a 3rd march that would nullify all this) but if this is going to be a permanent reference I'd like to see some math behind the damage Ghorn can be responsible for.

+5 march (assuming af3 pants) gives 31.8% magic haste while +4 gives 26.5%. This is important because the magic haste cap is 43.75%. After accounting for the haste spell that leaves 28.75% needed to cap from songs. This means 99 horn is giving 2.25% more haste than the other options.

As we know, haste gets better and better the more you add. So when we assume 25% gear haste and /ja haste of 10% (the 25% of Last Resort will hit the overall cap and nullify the bonus of 99 horn) a melee in a party with a 99 Ghorn bard will be sitting at 78.75% haste instead of 76.5% haste. That is a HUGE increase in damage if just one melee receives the benefit. When you consider that usually 3 melees receive that benefit you are talking about a damage amount that I can't imagine being equaled by taking a single weapon 95--->99 (it might even account for more damage than a melee changing from an AH weapon to a 99 relic.

The increase is even more if a bard has Daur as then 3 members will be receiving extra attack from Ghorn as well as haste. Because of this I really think unless an event needs a relic/emp pld in order to survive that Ghorn is the strongest relic there is and is responsible for the most damage.....it will just show up on someone else's screenshot.

Full disclaimer: One more piece of +march equipment makes 99 horn pretty much worthless other than adding a few seconds to duration and saving inventory.
 Cerberus.Mindi
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By Cerberus.Mindi 2013-02-14 02:51:22
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Lakshmi.Stepth said: »
Gjallarhorn:



Ok i am not really a brd, and sure saying "brd should make emph and relic anyways" is one point.. but in the end the competition for a relic horn IS the emph... and i think thats the most important point and should be for sure mentinoed in the post.
Is it worth getting maxed out songs (relic 99) before haveing max number of songs(Emph99)? I dont think so. I'd say even 3 songs with just +3 Instruments is better then 2 songs with+4 instrument. But getting 3 songs wont cost that much..

I guess the most important thing to add about Brd instruments is the order in which you should aim to get which.. and IF you only go for one, which should it be. (obviously the 1st in order to get)

My guess is(and this is from someone who dont really likes/play brd since we left the lv 75 times):
emph90>>>>relic90 >= emph99>relic99

1st should be a emph lv 90 and startng from here i have no clue! Relic 90 is mostly inventory- and a boost to ballad/sherzo/whatever so its not much stronger then other instruments. But once you have a emph99 you also want to have a 99 relic. Or you are lazybrd and go with only Emph99 and just do the overwriting songs with +3instruments
 Cerberus.Mindi
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By Cerberus.Mindi 2013-02-14 03:18:52
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Siren.Barber said: »
+5 march (assuming af3 pants) gives 31.8% magic haste while +4 gives 26.5%. This is important because the magic haste cap is 43.75%. After accounting for the haste spell that leaves 28.75% needed to cap from songs. This means 99 horn is giving 2.25% more haste than the other options.

Looking at bg wiki it says (caps):
Advancing March 6.3% (64/1024)
Victory March 9.5% (96/1024)

March +4 168 seconds +6.3% Haste (64/1024)
March +5 180 seconds +8% Haste (80/1024)

soooo March+4 =6,3 + 9,5 + 6,3 + 6,3 = 28.4(288) not 26.5

adding haste is 438 while cap is 448 magic haste... so mrach haste cap isnt the selling point to 99 the relic. For me it seems the added durations is the best you get from 99 your relic, once you have the 99 emph.
someone please correct me if i am wrong or tell me a good reason to toss money into a relic 99 before you have emph 99 ^^;
 Fenrir.Sigfreid
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By Fenrir.Sigfreid 2013-02-14 03:28:35
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Another thing most people overlook with the Gjallarhorn95 is the fact that it comes with CHR+10 and Singing and Wind skill +25, that is about the equivalent of +55 M.acc for your debuffs, which is a huge boost
 Phoenix.Purpleeyes
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By Phoenix.Purpleeyes 2013-02-14 03:47:13
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There's no H in empyrean btw.
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 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-02-14 03:48:13
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least he didn't say emphereal/empereal I guess. that ***pisses me off
 Valefor.Philemon
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By Valefor.Philemon 2013-02-14 04:21:36
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Regarding BRD, you can only cap magic haste with Ghorn 99 (assume AF3+2 hands). I think that's a major selling point. And of course ballads.

But Daurdabla has much more to offer. In terms of what should be made first, the order should be:

Daurdabla90 > Daurdabla99 > Ghorn95 > Ghorn99 > Carnwenhan

There are many +song options that'll get you even with a level 95 Ghorn and additional songs are far, far more useful than a slight boost.
 Ragnarok.Galiber
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By Ragnarok.Galiber 2013-02-14 04:49:05
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Bismarck.Kelhor said: »
It does sound like I should re-do the math with max sets, though ;)


Are you also considering 99 Almace?

It's no surprise that 99 Excal> 90 Almace in most low crit situations, however 99 Almace is far superior than 99 Excal, you'll get the same results I got if you run the data.
 Bismarck.Chaosprime
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By Bismarck.Chaosprime 2013-02-14 05:07:36
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thing is for the majority Relics will cease at 95 and Empys at 90. Though the few will rise to 99, they are in the minority, so i feel comparison wise a 95 > 90 view would be better.

Just me 2 cents :)
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 Ragnarok.Daffel
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By Ragnarok.Daffel 2013-02-14 06:10:25
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I used all my likes!! D: This thread is magnificent, laughed so hard xD
 Bahamut.Havelock
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By Bahamut.Havelock 2013-02-14 06:19:45
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Bismarck.Chaosprime said: »
thing is for the majority Relics will cease at 95 and Empys at 90. Though the few will rise to 99, they are in the minority, so i feel comparison wise a 95 > 90 view would be better. Just me 2 cents :)
Not true, people serious about a job will 99 their weapon (more likely relics though as they already incurred most of the cost to get 75 version). Others will prefer to build another one not to be forced to play one job 99% of time. Anyways adding more information always better.
 Bismarck.Chaosprime
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By Bismarck.Chaosprime 2013-02-14 06:33:04
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Bahamut.Havelock said: »
Bismarck.Chaosprime said: »
thing is for the majority Relics will cease at 95 and Empys at 90. Though the few will rise to 99, they are in the minority, so i feel comparison wise a 95 > 90 view would be better. Just me 2 cents :)
Not true, people serious about a job will 99 their weapon (more likely relics though as they already incurred most of the cost to get 75 version). Others will prefer to build another one not to be forced to play one job 99% of time. Anyways adding more information always better.

Im serious about my job, yeah people can lol but my main is THF. Have my Mandau @95 but simply don't have the capability to get 3x Umbral Marrows nor the funds. 15mil a Marrow is 45mil, that's a 1/3 of the price for a relic. Im just saying for many 95 > 90 will be the comparison. Having other comparisons of 99> 99 etc of course will be more beneficial. But like many i don't have 45mil to just toss about as loose change xD anyway this is off topic, so back on topic lol

Maybe comparisons of:
Relic > Empy
95 > 90
95 > 95
99 > 95
99 > 99

Im pretty sure everyone should be able to get relic and empy to 95/90 respectively :)
 Ragnarok.Ravant
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By Ragnarok.Ravant 2013-02-14 06:36:34
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Bismarck.Chaosprime said: »
Bahamut.Havelock said: »
Bismarck.Chaosprime said: »
thing is for the majority Relics will cease at 95 and Empys at 90. Though the few will rise to 99, they are in the minority, so i feel comparison wise a 95 > 90 view would be better. Just me 2 cents :)
Not true, people serious about a job will 99 their weapon (more likely relics though as they already incurred most of the cost to get 75 version). Others will prefer to build another one not to be forced to play one job 99% of time. Anyways adding more information always better.

Im serious about my job, yeah people can lol but my main is THF. Have my Mandau @95 but simply don't have the capability to get 3x Umbral Marrows nor the funds. 15mil a Marrow is 45mil, that's a 1/3 of the price for a relic. Im just saying for many 95 > 90 will be the comparison. Having other comparisons of 99> 99 etc of course will be more beneficial. But like many i don't have 45mil to just toss about as loose change xD anyway this is off topic, so back on topic lol

Maybe comparisons of:
Relic > Empy
95 > 90
95 > 95
99 > 95
99 > 99

Im pretty sure everyone should be able to get relic and empy to 95/90 respectively :)

Isn't it x5 marrows?
 Bismarck.Chaosprime
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By Bismarck.Chaosprime 2013-02-14 06:38:33
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Ragnarok.Ravant said: »
Bismarck.Chaosprime said: »
Bahamut.Havelock said: »
Bismarck.Chaosprime said: »
thing is for the majority Relics will cease at 95 and Empys at 90. Though the few will rise to 99, they are in the minority, so i feel comparison wise a 95 > 90 view would be better. Just me 2 cents :)
Not true, people serious about a job will 99 their weapon (more likely relics though as they already incurred most of the cost to get 75 version). Others will prefer to build another one not to be forced to play one job 99% of time. Anyways adding more information always better.

Im serious about my job, yeah people can lol but my main is THF. Have my Mandau @95 but simply don't have the capability to get 3x Umbral Marrows nor the funds. 15mil a Marrow is 45mil, that's a 1/3 of the price for a relic. Im just saying for many 95 > 90 will be the comparison. Having other comparisons of 99> 99 etc of course will be more beneficial. But like many i don't have 45mil to just toss about as loose change xD anyway this is off topic, so back on topic lol

Maybe comparisons of:
Relic > Empy
95 > 90
95 > 95
99 > 95
99 > 99

Im pretty sure everyone should be able to get relic and empy to 95/90 respectively :)

Isn't it x5 marrows?


Dont mind me only returned to the game after 11 months 3 was for mythic, 5 is indeed for Relics. So that brings the price to 75mil.... Yeah sorry id rather build a new relic... lol
 Bahamut.Havelock
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By Bahamut.Havelock 2013-02-14 06:41:10
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Bismarck.Chaosprime said: »
Im pretty sure everyone should be able to get relic and empy to 95/90 respectively :)
Dont quire understand how farming 120M to get a relic is so much easier compared to 45-60M to 99. Some will farm for new relic, some will 99 what they have - but it is not out of reach.
 Cerberus.Mindi
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By Cerberus.Mindi 2013-02-14 06:43:52
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Dagger is one of the worst examples to go like "95 is enough", especially when you consider THF as a mainjob
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-14 06:44:53
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Imagine someone who made a relic during summer when he simply had nothing better to do, then winter comes and he doesn't have the time to farm everyday anymore and he never fished. Yes, the 99 versions are out of reach and he would compare 95 relic to 90 empy.
Just because some people can doesn't mean everyone does.
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 Cerberus.Mindi
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By Cerberus.Mindi 2013-02-14 06:57:00
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just because some can't 99 their weapons doesnt mean that a general relic comparison should be based on those. This should be based on the maximum capability of the weapons

Maybe for those relics where the question is relic or empy can add the lv 99 comparison and the 95 vs 90 as a sidenote.
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-14 07:01:20
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No, the comparison should be about both cases.
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 Cerberus.Kvazz
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By Cerberus.Kvazz 2013-02-14 07:10:34
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Imagine someone who made a relic during summer when he simply had nothing better to do, then winter comes and he doesn't have the time to farm everyday anymore and he never fished. Yes, the 99 versions are out of reach and he would compare 95 relic to 90 empy.
Just because some people can doesn't mean everyone does.

I agree here.
Some people aim to just get the 95, and get kind of stuck, atleast for a very long time, with their 95 weapon.
These guides should if possible have atleast some info about how they perform at their 95 stage.

Edit:

Bismarck.Chaosprime said: »
Dont mind me only returned to the game after 11 months 3 was for mythic, 5 is indeed for Relics. So that brings the price to 75mil.... Yeah sorry id rather build a new relic... lol

75m? On cerb now it's completely realistic to get 5 for 50m, and for 60 you can find enough in a day.
I just got my 99 Ragna for 46.5 total! =)
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 Ragnarok.Ravant
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By Ragnarok.Ravant 2013-02-14 07:35:48
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Cerberus.Kvazz said: »
75m? On cerb now it's completely realistic to get 5 for 50m, and for 60 you can find enough in a day.
I just got my 99 Ragna for 46.5 total! =)

Ya on Rag I believe they go for 10-12M each.
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 Bismarck.Kelhor
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-14 07:55:29
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Ragnarok.Galiber said: »
Are you also considering 99 Almace?

I explicitly state that I'm using the 99 versions of both. Almace is superior, and the results reflect that, even with a less than completely ideal CDC build. It's not "far superior", and the results reflect that as well. Excalibur isn't Gungnir, you know. It does have value in some situations ;)

I'm going to add both higher-tier sets and an Excalibur 95 vs Almace 90 comparison, as both of those are good ideas.
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