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Which Relic Should I Make?: A Guide
By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-13 15:20:51
So should I make a guttler?
GIMME A BIT JEEZ
(short answer is "if you need to ask then probably not", but that applies to like 3/4ths of them, so)
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Valefor.Sehachan
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-13 15:22:10
Guttler is thirsty...Guttler wants blood...
Cerberus.Pleebo
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-02-13 15:24:58
If Guttler allowed access to a special instance of Dynamis where perle BSTs weren't allowed, I'd start making one tomorrow.
It should at least dispense a random 100-piece on use (one-week cooldown).
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-13 15:25:03
gosh, I may have accidentally gotten a few people amped about guttler D:
Quote: If Guttler allowed access to a special instance of Dynamis where perle BSTs weren't allowed, I'd start making one tomorrow.
yes, well, in my modest experience that magical place is called "the DC camps, you lazy bums"
Cerberus.Valmur
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3642
By Cerberus.Valmur 2013-02-13 15:29:12
Guttler is thirsty...Guttler wants blood...
<3 my Gutty
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Lakshmi.Phaffi
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 298
By Lakshmi.Phaffi 2013-02-13 15:39:05
Analysis of Aegis
(1.) An overview of the weapon.
(a.) What are the weapon's strengths and weaknesses?
(a1.) Pros: Exceeds the magic damage taken -% cap, high block rate, drastically increases shield bash damage, you still have your choice of 1h main weapons when a shield is equipped, can put in more absorb/annul into your MDT set!*
(a2.) Cons: Block rate is lower than level 90+ Ochain, It costs money/takes more time to make than Ochain, you’re in the same category as Konvict.
(b.) Does this weapon fundamentally alter or create roles for the job?
Not particularly, PLD is just kind of around to deal with adds at the moment.
(c.) In what situations is the weapon used?
Holding adds in Legion/Voidwatch, really feel like playing PLD
Added Note: If you do not intend on using your TP, swapping between Aegis and Ochain can be effective for minimizing all damage you take. However, PLD/SCH with reduced recast on Reprisal due to Celerity and Palisade usually grants enough block rate for most content.
(d.) How frequent do these situations arise?
If you are part of a group that does Legion, however often you go, Is there a VW shout that has adds needing to be held?
(e.) In what situations is the weapon trumped by another option and how frequently do these situations occur?
Situations where the majority of damage you will be taking can be blocked, where you would use Ochain for the increased block rate. Bismarck/Morta/etc (however, you theoretically have infinite Fanatic's Drinks for this, making shields in general bleh)
(f.) Is the weapon still functional when not fully upgraded (lv95)
Yes, it just might require you to have one or two more inventory spaces for –MDT% gear depending on your builds
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
(a.) What are the weapon's major competitors?
Ochain
(b.) When is this weapon superior to its major competitors?
When there is a possibility of taking large amounts of magic damage
(c.) What is the relative position (provide numbers where
possible) of the weapon and its competitors in situations where it's relevant to consider?
As far as Legion, dealing damage is not on my list of things to do when it comes to PLD, so I freely swap between both shields (I also go /SCH instead of /DNC so the TP from Emvrava goes unused anyway).
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
(a.) When is this the weapon for you?
(a1.) You should choose this weapon if you love PLD
(a2.) You should not choose this weapon if you don’t want to optimally gear your PLD
(b.) Are there any other considerations?
*can put in more absorb/annul into your MDT set! I use:
this enables you to cap your MDT with Shell IV in the event that your shell gets dispelled and you need to recast on yourself. Alternately, Magic Defense Bonus+∞ set I suppose
Taking this item from 95-99 frees up inventory space!
Kind of half wrote this while doing homework, if I think of more, I will amend it later.
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Phoenix.Rhealana
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 61
By Phoenix.Rhealana 2013-02-13 15:42:57
No, here are the problems with Gungnir:
1) Dragoon without Ryunohige is not a competitive DD.
2) Gungnir isn't Ryunohige.
3) It follows that a DRG using Gungnir isn't a DD.
4) So Gungnir is a waste of time because it doesn't make DRG a DD worth bringing and doesn't open up any other possible roles.
Example:
* You have a 99 Gungnir, a 90 Ukonvasara for your only two jobs, WAR and DRG. Which job do you come to Provenance?
Answer: WAR
* You have a 99 Gungnir and a Hoarfrost Blade for your only two jobs, DRG and DRK. Which job do you come to Provenance:
Answer: DRK
See how it works? Gungnir is useless.
Byrth hurts my soul, wah. Then again, my Gungnir is in storage. So truth.
Lakshmi.Phaffi
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 298
By Lakshmi.Phaffi 2013-02-13 15:44:06
No, here are the problems with Gungnir:
1) Dragoon without Ryunohige is not a competitive DD.
2) Gungnir isn't Ryunohige.
3) It follows that a DRG using Gungnir isn't a DD.
4) So Gungnir is a waste of time because it doesn't make DRG a DD worth bringing and doesn't open up any other possible roles.
Example:
* You have a 99 Gungnir, a 90 Ukonvasara for your only two jobs, WAR and DRG. Which job do you come to Provenance?
Answer: WAR
* You have a 99 Gungnir and a Hoarfrost Blade for your only two jobs, DRG and DRK. Which job do you come to Provenance:
Answer: DRK
See how it works? Gungnir is useless.
Byrth hurts my soul, wah. Then again, my Gungnir is in storage. So truth. that's not far enough away from your inventory, you might have to go to Ifrit's Cauldron and cast it into the abyss.
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Fenrir.Jinjo
VIP
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By Fenrir.Jinjo 2013-02-13 15:46:04
Gungnir overview: -Strengths: High base damage, accuracy bonus
-Weaknesses: Dragoon does not benefit from the strengths
-Roles created: Making a new weapon
-Weapon is used: In town; posing as Poseidon
-Frequency of these situations: Based on search results, 40% of the time. Your results may vary.
-When is it beaten: When you actually want to do damage.
-Functional before 99?: It gets no more useful after 75
By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-13 22:01:35
SO YOU WANT TO MAKE A GUTTLER
(1.) Guttler, like most relic weapons, is straight damage upgrade. It is BST's highest damage weapon out of realistic options (Aymur might be better? Do we care? Not really!). However, since Guttler obviously represents a massive financial investment you could, at the very least, use on another relic for another job, there are some pretty broad existential questions about game priorities you need to ask yourself that we'll get to in a bit. For now, just keep in mind Guttler is your best damage option for BST.
(a.) Guttler's straight damage. Like all one-hand relics, it gives a big attack boost, a choke effect that maybe helps you get a bit closer towards meeting its pretty-impressively-high weapon rank of 9 (at 95+), and even though Onslaught is unfortunately fairly bad even by relic WS standards (doubly unfortunate because the aftermath is actually pretty awesome as relic AMs go, but the 20 second duration for 100 TP is never going to get you to another WS on BST so you don't really get the opportunity to mix up Onslaught and Ruinator), Guttler lends itself well to spamming Ruinator, which is arguably the best WS in the game.
The downside (other than Ruinator eclipsing Onslaught) is that it is a weapon for BST, and while it's the best a BST can do, you're ultimately going to run into the scaling issues that give BST so much trouble on higher-end content. Guttler DOES NOT change the game for a BST. But again, you're a BST, so if you have the right attitude and are playing to your strengths you shouldn't necessarily care about that.
{c.) You'll make good use of Guttler in any situation where you'll melee as BST.
(d.) These situations arise quite a bit more often than people seem to think. Snarl is pretty great, and since you're likely subbing DNC or NIN for DW, in either case you have some tool to mitigate much of the AoE damage you could potentially suffer on a larger NM.
(e.) In such situations, Guttler's going to come out on top every time. The most common competitors I see mentioned are DA or Fire magian axes, and Guttler is a clear upgrade from those (and has a HUGE delay advantage over the DA, I might add).
(f.) Since Onslaught's not very good, I personally don't think Guttler gains much from going past 95; 99, notably, does not gain a weapon rank. Obviously 99 is better, but not nearly as much as with relics whose WSes are actually "good".
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
(a.) Guttler doesn't really have any meaningful competition for BST specifically, unless we're counting mythics, and we're not because *** you. Farsha is bad because Cloudsplitter is bad and Empyreans live or die by their WSes. The real competition is a relic for another job that would be more competitive in a group setting.
(b.) ...which brings us to the central soul-searching question you need to ask yourself as a BST interested in Guttler: are the various EP-to-EM-related mulchfests I wail on as BST important enough to me personally to invest in a Guttler over something like Ragnarok or Annihilator that would help me in a large group? This is not a simple question of job loyalty, mind you; Gungnir is bad because DRG is bad, and DRG is bad because it's heavily outstripped by other jobs in everything it does. BST, OTOH, is the undisputed king of what IT does, and you would never question making, say, an Ukonvasara for a WAR that was your best option for the content to which you brought it. In fact, you could say it's even greater than that, because, say, a 10% damage increase in the solo situations that BST finds itself translates into much greater results than an equivalent output increase in a situation where you have 17 other people to fall back on.
I'm not necessarily saying you should make a Guttler. All I'm saying is that the answer to this, maybe more than any other relic, is one that only you yourself can really provide.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
(a.) Guttler obviously might be for you if you love the ***out of the flexibility and independence BST provides. The master is not by any means a weak partner in the relationship between master and pet, and Ruinator is quite easy to build up to genuinely impressive levels. But it IS a substantial investment, and is not going to make your BST anything other than a BST.
On the upshot, you can use it to make another relic that much quicker! It pays for itself (if you have a year to blow in Dynamis)!
Also, not for nothing, Guttler is a 10,000 shell relic and will thus in the current economy be substantially cheaper than other options.
fite me
Asura.Xredx
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By Asura.Xredx 2013-02-13 22:23:12
i dont use my guttler to out DD drks cause thats impossible. i do it to out DD those perle bst in my domain.
i <3 my guttler
By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-13 22:40:04
guys
i think i might make a guttler
D:
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Valefor.Omnys
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By Valefor.Omnys 2013-02-13 22:40:25
Aegis and Horn have the distinct pleasure of knowing that if SE makes it worthless, they did it on purpose. There's a lot of security in those relics always being the best for what they're the best for, a relic weapon, after unknown future adjustments, or the introduction of Adoulin's version of relic/mythic/empy, may not be the joyful weapon you ignored your kids for.
Bismarck.Shyral
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By Bismarck.Shyral 2013-02-13 23:02:33
gosh, I may have accidentally gotten a few people amped about guttler D:
Quote: If Guttler allowed access to a special instance of Dynamis where perle BSTs weren't allowed, I'd start making one tomorrow.
yes, well, in my modest experience that magical place is called "the DC camps, you lazy bums"
I thought this magical place was called dyna-tav.
Bismarck.Kelhor
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-13 23:19:04
Excalibur is the relic one-handed sword. It's fairly standard by that measure; high damage for its weapon type (73 at 99!), a big chunk of Attack, and a first-swing 250% damage hit that triggers 13% of the time. It is unique among them in the sense that its additional effect is extra damage, instead of a status debuff like most of the others. This effect deals straight slashing damage equal to 25% of the wielder's HP to the target, ignoring attack/defense considerations (but still factoring in +/- Physical Damage Taken). This damage does not add to enmity, which seems curious that of the two jobs that can use Excalibur, one of them won't care about hate and the other should be actively seeking it.
Excalibur also grants access to Knights of Round, a 40% STR/40% MND weapon skill. Like other relic weaponskills, it is a single physical hit, with a 3.0 fTP value at all values of TP. TP over 100 extends the duration of the aftermath, which is 10/tick of HP regen that stacks with other sources.
Strengths
Excalibur is used by two jobs that have both 1) a serious attack deficiency and 2) are easily capped on gear Haste. Excalibur plays to both of these well, as it has a large chunk of attack like all relic 1h, and the additional effect damage doesn't rely on anything other than keeping up your HP and swinging really fast, both things RDM and PLD can do easily. Excalibur is also the premier Requiescat sword, as it is high damage, and the extra Attack helps to counter Req's inherent attack penalty. It's also quite functional under 99, as the HP-based additional effect is at full strength even with the level 75 version.
Weaknesses
Excalibur's biggest weakness is really the jobs that can wield it - Blue Mage is the one job where sword damage really matters, and it can't use it. PLD and RDM are extremely durable, but neither is a damage powerhouse even in the best of scenarios and Excalibur doesn't do much to help you there. Knights of Round is fairly lackluster even at 99 with the boost.
Situational application
Again, Excalibur suffers from the jobs that wield it. Red Mages do not melee in standard situations, and Paladins are generally left alone in the corner to hold adds without drawing the weapon at all. When you are engaged, however, it is an outstanding weapon, especially if you are swapping shields on PLD or can't WS for some other reason (Amnesia).
Comparisons
The most obvious comparison is to Almace. This is the hot button topic of endless debate, so let's go to the Holy Book of Motenten, and see what the (slightly modified for gear that wasn't in it) spreadsheet says:
As an opening caveat, the spreadsheet doesn't account for Excalibur's additional effect. So we use Enlight for both weapons, and ignore the additional effect damage, but allow for Almace's CDC aftermath and Excalibur's relic 2.5 damage hits. We'll compare both 90 and 99 Almace, and 95 and 99 Excalibur.
TP phase
Requiescat with Excalibur
CDC with Almace
Code
| No buffs, fodder | Melee DPS | WS DMG | Cycle DMG | Cycle Time | Total DPS |
+---------------------------+-----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+
| Excalibur (99) | 109.071 | 2212 | 5613 | 2046 | 164.599 |
| Excalibur (95) | 103.343 | 2140 | 5362 | 2046 | 157.257 |
| Almace (99) | 119.615 | 2114 | 5983 | 2121 | 169.299 |
| Almace (90) | 107.344 | 1957 | 5430 | 2121 | 153.638 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| DC Dynamis, capped haste | Melee DPS | WS DMG | Cycle DMG | Cycle Time | Total DPS |
+--------------------------+-----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+
| Excalibur (99) | 210.614 | 1828 | 4650 | 979 | 284.987 |
| Excalibur (95) | 209.541 | 1769 | 4469 | 979 | 273.901 |
| Almace (99) | 224.840 | 1881 | 5007 | 1014 | 296.411 |
| Almace (90) | 204.034 | 1744 | 4580 | 1014 | 271.146 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
This pattern holds true for most situations: Chant du Cygne's ODD keeps Almace's white damage so high that it will consistently outpace Excalibur's shorter cycles and harder hitting WS. From a pure damage standpoint, Excalibur is the inferior weapon. It's certainly close enough that in practice the additional effect damage will push it to be functionally equal. Also, if you can't maintain CDC's Aftermath, Excalibur will creep up and overtake it.
Is it right for you?
Excalibur is the weapon for you if you expect to be doing a lot of things as a Paladin. A stronger Requiescat, the ability to swap shields and lose TP whole still maintaining some damage, and the ability to still do damage while in less-than-ideal combat gear (such as when you are swapped into -DT to eat a spell or TP move). It's close enough to Almace (and stronger, earlier) that it's certainly the more cost-effective weapon.
Excalibur is not right for you if you're going to play Blue Mage seriously. Build an Almace instead.
[edit: Improved the sets, with thanks to Austar and others. Added the "more obtainable" level of the weapon as well.]
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2013-02-13 23:19:11
Gungnir overview: -Strengths: High base damage, accuracy bonus
-Weaknesses: Dragoon does not benefit from the strengths
-Roles created: Making a new weapon
-Weapon is used: In town; posing as Poseidon
-Frequency of these situations: Based on search results, 40% of the time. Your results may vary.
-When is it beaten: When you actually want to do damage.
-Functional before 99?: It gets no more useful after 75
Holy ***, I laughed so hard I woke my roommate.
Fenrir.Sylow
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 6862
By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-13 23:30:36
For anyone doing spreadsheet comparisons, you can manually add gear that doesn't exist.
Just click over to the gear list tab and overwrite something (name + stats) that you know you'll never use for any reason whatsoever.
This is something that is obvious to me but a lot of people seem to miss.
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Bismarck.Kelhor
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-13 23:31:26
For anyone doing spreadsheet comparisons, you can manually add gear that doesn't exist.
Just click over to the gear list tab and overwrite something (name + stats) that you know you'll never use for any reason whatsoever.
This is something that is obvious to me but a lot of people seem to miss.
Yeah, that's what I did.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-13 23:34:36
That's what I figured, but I figured it could use explicit stating for someone who wanted to reproduce results.
Fenrir.Curty
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By Fenrir.Curty 2013-02-13 23:39:54
For anyone doing spreadsheet comparisons, you can manually add gear that doesn't exist.
Just click over to the gear list tab and overwrite something (name + stats) that you know you'll never use for any reason whatsoever.
This is something that is obvious to me but a lot of people seem to miss.
Yeah, that's what I did.
Just wondering Kelhor, were you assuming AM1 or AM3 for almace?
Bismarck.Kelhor
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-13 23:42:52
Just wondering Kelhor, were you assuming AM1 or AM3 for almace?
AM1, I'm assuming that you're spamming it (30% ODD).
Phoenix.Kirana
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By Phoenix.Kirana 2013-02-13 23:50:03
Honest question: Why do you subtitle yoichinoyumi as "The Fan-Splitter"?
edit: nevermind I just looked up nasu no yoichi again >_>
Fenrir.Curty
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By Fenrir.Curty 2013-02-13 23:52:24
Honest question: Why do you subtitle yoichinoyumi as "The Fan-Splitter"?
Yoichinoyumi (与一の弓), "Yoichi's bow", comes from a Japanese story of the Samurai, Nasu no Yoichi. He was a Lord of the Minamoto clan during the Genpei War against the Taira/Heike. During the shore battle of Yashima, the Taira placed a mystical fan atop one of their warships, and claimed it protected them from ballistic fire and could even divert the arrows back to their enemies; they made a challenge against the Minamoto to try and take it down. Yoichi mounted a horse and entered the waters. Despite the tide, the wavering of his mount, and the teetering of the fan's ship, with a single arrow he was able to shoot and split the fan. Because of the marvelousness of the shot, both sides of the confrontation cheered Yoichi's mastery of archery.
Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-02-13 23:52:31
Just wondering Kelhor, were you assuming AM1 or AM3 for almace?
AM1, I'm assuming that you're spamming it (30% ODD). What were you assuming for Excalibur?
Bismarck.Kelhor
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-14 00:02:32
What were you assuming for Excalibur?
Excalibur's relic weapon effect isn't actually ODD, it's 2.5, so I used 20% (13.33% trigger * 1.5 = 19.995). Probably not perfect.
/it's late, I'm well aware that could be totally wrong, mostly just wanted to get it written and let the wolves at it
Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-02-14 00:04:21
What were you assuming for Excalibur?
Excalibur's relic weapon effect isn't actually ODD, it's 2.5, so I used 20% (13.33% trigger * 1.5 = 19.995). Probably not perfect.
/it's late, I'm well aware that could be totally wrong Well I meant specifically the 2.5 damage proc. Rounding up to 20 and then accounting for the fact relic ODD only works on first hits of a round, and going by your TP set with /WAR, it would be closer to 15.83% ODD.
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Bismarck.Kelhor
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-14 00:06:19
Well I meant specifically the 2.5 damage proc. Rounding up to 20 and then accounting for the fact relic ODD only works on first hits of a round, and going by your TP set with /WAR, it would be closer to 15.83% ODD.
Derp, didn't factor in DA/TA. This skews it even more towards Almace, which is unsurprising. Thanks very much.
[edit: fixed the math in the post]
Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-02-14 00:09:01
Well I meant specifically the 2.5 damage proc. Rounding up to 20 and then accounting for the fact relic ODD only works on first hits of a round, and going by your TP set with /WAR, it would be closer to 15.83% ODD.
Derp, didn't factor in DA. This skews it even more towards Almace, which is unsurprising. I'll fix the math in the morning. Thanks very much. WS sets might need some tweaking too.
Bismarck.Kelhor
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-14 00:14:04
Well I meant specifically the 2.5 damage proc. Rounding up to 20 and then accounting for the fact relic ODD only works on first hits of a round, and going by your TP set with /WAR, it would be closer to 15.83% ODD.
Derp, didn't factor in DA. This skews it even more towards Almace, which is unsurprising. I'll fix the math in the morning. Thanks very much. WS sets might need some tweaking too.
For sure, on CDC. I've never bothered to build a CDC set (obviously) so I was mostly going by what I found in the PLD forums. I wasn't aiming at top-tier for the WS to begin with though (reasonable-high was my aim), which is why Huginn feet aren't in the CDC set (among other things).
Dafuq Relic Shud I Maek?
Because every argument has already been made
Now with 30% less Comic Sans!
So, liek, you've burned your Beastmaster to 99 and you're ready to go fight over nightmare mobs in dreamlands Dynamis with the rest of your server. But, you don't know which relic to make? Fortunately, 50 other people made a thread before you and contrary to what you may believe, your situation is not unique.
Aegis
The creepiest relic of them all!
Stuff regarding Aegis goes here.
Amanomurakumo
Sword of the Gathering Clouds of Heaven
Amanomurakumo analysis goes here.
Annihilator
Soon to be banned by Obama
Annihilator analysis goes here.
Apocalypse
The End of the World
Apocalypse analysis goes here.
Bravura
The Virtuoso
Bravura analysis goes here.
Claustrum
The Waste of Currency
Claustrum analysis goes here.
Excalibur
The sword of King Arthur
Excalibur analysis goes here.
Gjallarhorn
The Yelling Horn
Gjallarhorn analysis goes here.
Gungnir
The Swaying One
Luvdisc analysis goes here.
Guttler
The Relic-Maker
SO YOU WANT TO MAKE A GUTTLER by Scaevola
SO YOU WANT TO MAKE A GUTTLER
Overview Guttler, like most relic weapons, is straight damage upgrade. It is BST's highest damage weapon out of realistic options (Aymur might be situationally better? Do we care? Not really!). However, since Guttler obviously represents a massive financial investment you could, at the very least, use on another relic for another job, there are some pretty broad existential questions about game priorities you need to ask yourself that we'll get to in a bit. For now, just keep in mind Guttler is your best damage option for BST.
(a.) Strengths and Weaknesses Guttler's straight damage. Like all one-hand relics, it gives a big attack boost, a choke effect (VIT down) that maybe helps you get a bit closer towards meeting its pretty-impressively-high weapon rank of 9 (at 95+), and even though Onslaught is unfortunately fairly bad even by relic WS standards (doubly unfortunate because the aftermath is actually pretty awesome as relic AMs go, but the 20 second duration for 100 TP is never going to get you to another WS on BST so you don't really get the opportunity to mix up Onslaught and Ruinator), Guttler lends itself well to spamming Ruinator, which is arguably the best WS in the game considered independently of weapon type.
(b.) Does this weapon fundamentally alter or create roles for the job? The downside (other than Ruinator eclipsing Onslaught) is that it is a weapon for BST, and while it's the best a BST can do, you're ultimately going to run into the scaling issues that give BST so much trouble on higher-end content. Guttler DOES NOT change the game for a BST. But again, you're a BST, so if you have the right attitude and are playing to your strengths you shouldn't necessarily care about that.
(c.) In what situations is the weapon used? You'll make good use of Guttler in any situation where you'll melee as BST.
(d.) How frequent do these situations arise? These situations arise quite a bit more often than people seem to think. Snarl is pretty great, and since you're likely subbing DNC or NIN for DW, in either case you have some tool to mitigate much of the AoE damage you could potentially suffer on a larger NM.
(e.) In what situations is the weapon trumped by another option and how frequently do these situations occur? In such situations, Guttler's going to come out on top every time. The most common competitors I see mentioned are DA or Fire magian axes, and Guttler is a clear upgrade from those (and has a HUGE delay advantage over the DA, I might add).
(f.) Is the weapon still functional when not fully upgraded (lv95) Since Onslaught's not very good, I personally don't think Guttler gains much from going past 95; 99, notably, does not gain a weapon rank. Obviously 99 is better, but not nearly as much as with relics whose WSes are actually "good".
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
(a.) What are the weapon's major competitors? Guttler doesn't really have any meaningful competition for BST specifically, unless we're counting mythics, and we're not because fuck you. Farsha is bad because Cloudsplitter is bad and Empyreans live or die by their WSes. The real competition is a relic for another job that would be more competitive in a group setting.
(b.) When is this weapon superior to its major competitors? ...which brings us to the central soul-searching question you need to ask yourself as a BST interested in Guttler: are the various EP-to-EM-related mulchfests I wail on as BST important enough to me personally to invest in a Guttler over something like Ragnarok or Annihilator that would help me in a large group? This is not a simple question of job loyalty, mind you; Gungnir is bad because DRG is bad, and DRG is bad because it's heavily outstripped by other jobs in everything it does. BST, OTOH, is the undisputed king of what IT does, and you would never question making, say, an Ukonvasara for a WAR that was your best option for the content to which you brought it. In fact, you could say it's even greater than that, because, say, a 10% damage increase in the solo situations that BST finds itself translates into much greater results than an equivalent output increase in a situation where you have 17 other people to fall back on.
I'm not necessarily saying you should make a Guttler. All I'm saying is that the answer to this, maybe more than any other relic, is one that only you yourself can really provide.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
(a.) When is or isn't this the weapon for you? Guttler obviously might be for you if you love the shit out of the flexibility and independence BST provides. The master is not by any means a weak partner in the relationship between master and pet, and Ruinator is quite easy to build up to genuinely impressive levels. But it IS a substantial investment, and is not going to make your BST anything other than a BST.
On the upshot, you can use it to make another relic that much quicker! It pays for itself (if you have a year to blow in Dynamis)!
Are there any other considerations? Also, not for nothing, Guttler is a 10,000 shell relic and will thus in the current economy be substantially cheaper than other options.
Kikoku
Demon Wail
Kikoku analysis goes here.
Mandau
The Headhunter
Mandau Analysis provided by Byrth
(1.) Overview
Mandau gives access to Mercy Stroke. It is D55/175 Delay and has 13.33% Triple Damage proc rate on the first swing of each round that uses it. It also has a 10 Damage/tick en-poison.
Mercy Stroke is 3.0 fTP and 60% STR. Using it with Mandau will give you a Critical Hit Rate +5% aftermath (both hands) that lasts for 20~60 seconds at 100~300TP.
Benefits: This weapon substantially boosts Attack (which dagger jobs need) and gives access to a good SA/TA WS for THF. It can be main-handed in all situations, except perhaps when you are evasion tanking something so incredibly accurate that you need to use two AGI Thokchas. There is no time when another weapon is a better for damage.
Weaknesses: This weapon has no specific weaknesses and does not create a fundamentally unique role for the job. Also, Mandau is one of the few weapons that benefits majorly from the upgrade to 99.
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
Competitors: Twashtar (BRD and THF), Almace (RDM)
Mandau is superior to Twashtar almost all of the time at level 99, and level 95 Mandau is superior to level <90 Twashtar all the time. Twashtar's major advantage is its 20 DEX, which may change your dDEX crit rate if you aren't already capped. This is a non-issue if you offhand Twashtar, though, which is ideal.
Mandau is never superior to Almace for RDM.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
You should not choose this weapon if your goal is to do epeen awesome damage and win all the parses against heavy DDs. Mandau is a very good weapon, but it does not make THF into a heavy DD. It makes good THF better than bad DDs.
You should choose this weapon if your goal is to improve your THF's damage in the situations where you use it already. Thief is primarily used for Treasure Hunter, and as a result it is used very frequently. The events where you use THF will be faster and smoother if you are using Mandau, and that should be your motivation for getting this weapon.
As far as other considerations, you need to take Mandau to 99 for it to really shine. The last +15% Mercy Stroke damage opens up new ways to use the WS.
When offhanding with 27% DA (/WAR) and 14% TA:
Mercy Stroke - 2 hits base, 1.4*(4 fTP + 0.1 Gorget + MultiAttack Rate*2) = 7.17 fTP - Gets about D+85 from 60% STR
(55+85+14)*7.17 = 1082.6
Exenterator - 5 hits base, 5 fTP + MultiAttack Rate*2 = 6.02 fTP - Gets about D+140 from 100% AGI
(55+140+14)*6.02 = 1258.2
You will likely cap fSTR in each case. Mercy Stroke has more STR (and thus Attack) than Exenterator, but Exenterator has an unverified 5% Attack boost associated with it so you can sort of call it a wash. Exenterator also will hit the round-cap if you TA twice, while Mercy Stroke will not. This is not corrected for.
So Exenterator will do <14% more damage unstacked, but you get an extra 5% crit rate for up to 60 seconds after Mercy Stroke so it might be worth using uncapped if you have high TP outside Abyssea. Note that this is just napkin math and some claim the difference is even smaller than this. Exenterator doesn't benefit from TP.
Mjöllnir
The Crusher
Mjöllnir analysis goes here.
Ragnarok
The Fate of the Divine
Ragnarok analysis goes here.
Spharai
The Spheres
Spharai analysis goes here.
Yoichinoyumi
The Fan-Splitter
Yoichinoyumi analysis goes here.[/div]
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