Which Relic Should I Make?: A Guide

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Which Relic Should I Make?: A Guide
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-13 15:20:51
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Asura.Draus said: »
So should I make a guttler?

GIMME A BIT JEEZ

(short answer is "if you need to ask then probably not", but that applies to like 3/4ths of them, so)
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-13 15:22:10
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Guttler is thirsty...Guttler wants blood...
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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-02-13 15:24:58
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If Guttler allowed access to a special instance of Dynamis where perle BSTs weren't allowed, I'd start making one tomorrow.

It should at least dispense a random 100-piece on use (one-week cooldown).
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-13 15:25:03
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gosh, I may have accidentally gotten a few people amped about guttler D:

Quote:
If Guttler allowed access to a special instance of Dynamis where perle BSTs weren't allowed, I'd start making one tomorrow.

yes, well, in my modest experience that magical place is called "the DC camps, you lazy bums"
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By Cerberus.Valmur 2013-02-13 15:29:12
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Guttler is thirsty...Guttler wants blood...

<3 my Gutty
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 Lakshmi.Phaffi
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By Lakshmi.Phaffi 2013-02-13 15:39:05
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Analysis of Aegis
Kind of half wrote this while doing homework, if I think of more, I will amend it later.
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 Phoenix.Rhealana
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By Phoenix.Rhealana 2013-02-13 15:42:57
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
No, here are the problems with Gungnir:
1) Dragoon without Ryunohige is not a competitive DD.
2) Gungnir isn't Ryunohige.
3) It follows that a DRG using Gungnir isn't a DD.
4) So Gungnir is a waste of time because it doesn't make DRG a DD worth bringing and doesn't open up any other possible roles.


Example:
* You have a 99 Gungnir, a 90 Ukonvasara for your only two jobs, WAR and DRG. Which job do you come to Provenance?
Answer: WAR

* You have a 99 Gungnir and a Hoarfrost Blade for your only two jobs, DRG and DRK. Which job do you come to Provenance:
Answer: DRK

See how it works? Gungnir is useless.

Byrth hurts my soul, wah. Then again, my Gungnir is in storage. So truth.
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By Lakshmi.Phaffi 2013-02-13 15:44:06
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Phoenix.Rhealana said: »
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
No, here are the problems with Gungnir:
1) Dragoon without Ryunohige is not a competitive DD.
2) Gungnir isn't Ryunohige.
3) It follows that a DRG using Gungnir isn't a DD.
4) So Gungnir is a waste of time because it doesn't make DRG a DD worth bringing and doesn't open up any other possible roles.


Example:
* You have a 99 Gungnir, a 90 Ukonvasara for your only two jobs, WAR and DRG. Which job do you come to Provenance?
Answer: WAR

* You have a 99 Gungnir and a Hoarfrost Blade for your only two jobs, DRG and DRK. Which job do you come to Provenance:
Answer: DRK

See how it works? Gungnir is useless.

Byrth hurts my soul, wah. Then again, my Gungnir is in storage. So truth.
that's not far enough away from your inventory, you might have to go to Ifrit's Cauldron and cast it into the abyss.
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 Fenrir.Jinjo
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By Fenrir.Jinjo 2013-02-13 15:46:04
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Gungnir overview:
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-13 22:01:35
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SO YOU WANT TO MAKE A GUTTLER

fite me
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 Asura.Xredx
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By Asura.Xredx 2013-02-13 22:23:12
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i dont use my guttler to out DD drks cause thats impossible. i do it to out DD those perle bst in my domain.

i <3 my guttler
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-13 22:40:04
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guys

i think i might make a guttler

D:
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 Valefor.Omnys
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By Valefor.Omnys 2013-02-13 22:40:25
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Aegis and Horn have the distinct pleasure of knowing that if SE makes it worthless, they did it on purpose. There's a lot of security in those relics always being the best for what they're the best for, a relic weapon, after unknown future adjustments, or the introduction of Adoulin's version of relic/mythic/empy, may not be the joyful weapon you ignored your kids for.
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 Bismarck.Shyral
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By Bismarck.Shyral 2013-02-13 23:02:33
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ScaevolaBahamut said: »
gosh, I may have accidentally gotten a few people amped about guttler D:

Quote:
If Guttler allowed access to a special instance of Dynamis where perle BSTs weren't allowed, I'd start making one tomorrow.

yes, well, in my modest experience that magical place is called "the DC camps, you lazy bums"

I thought this magical place was called dyna-tav.
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-13 23:19:04
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Excalibur is the relic one-handed sword. It's fairly standard by that measure; high damage for its weapon type (73 at 99!), a big chunk of Attack, and a first-swing 250% damage hit that triggers 13% of the time. It is unique among them in the sense that its additional effect is extra damage, instead of a status debuff like most of the others. This effect deals straight slashing damage equal to 25% of the wielder's HP to the target, ignoring attack/defense considerations (but still factoring in +/- Physical Damage Taken). This damage does not add to enmity, which seems curious that of the two jobs that can use Excalibur, one of them won't care about hate and the other should be actively seeking it.

Excalibur also grants access to Knights of Round, a 40% STR/40% MND weapon skill. Like other relic weaponskills, it is a single physical hit, with a 3.0 fTP value at all values of TP. TP over 100 extends the duration of the aftermath, which is 10/tick of HP regen that stacks with other sources.

Strengths
Excalibur is used by two jobs that have both 1) a serious attack deficiency and 2) are easily capped on gear Haste. Excalibur plays to both of these well, as it has a large chunk of attack like all relic 1h, and the additional effect damage doesn't rely on anything other than keeping up your HP and swinging really fast, both things RDM and PLD can do easily. Excalibur is also the premier Requiescat sword, as it is high damage, and the extra Attack helps to counter Req's inherent attack penalty. It's also quite functional under 99, as the HP-based additional effect is at full strength even with the level 75 version.

Weaknesses
Excalibur's biggest weakness is really the jobs that can wield it - Blue Mage is the one job where sword damage really matters, and it can't use it. PLD and RDM are extremely durable, but neither is a damage powerhouse even in the best of scenarios and Excalibur doesn't do much to help you there. Knights of Round is fairly lackluster even at 99 with the boost.

Situational application
Again, Excalibur suffers from the jobs that wield it. Red Mages do not melee in standard situations, and Paladins are generally left alone in the corner to hold adds without drawing the weapon at all. When you are engaged, however, it is an outstanding weapon, especially if you are swapping shields on PLD or can't WS for some other reason (Amnesia).

Comparisons
The most obvious comparison is to Almace. This is the hot button topic of endless debate, so let's go to the Holy Book of Motenten, and see what the (slightly modified for gear that wasn't in it) spreadsheet says:

As an opening caveat, the spreadsheet doesn't account for Excalibur's additional effect. So we use Enlight for both weapons, and ignore the additional effect damage, but allow for Almace's CDC aftermath and Excalibur's relic 2.5 damage hits. We'll compare both 90 and 99 Almace, and 95 and 99 Excalibur.

TP phase
Requiescat with Excalibur
CDC with Almace
Code
| No buffs, fodder          | Melee DPS | WS DMG | Cycle DMG | Cycle Time | Total DPS |
+---------------------------+-----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+
| Excalibur (99)            | 109.071   | 2212   | 5613      | 2046       | 164.599   |
| Excalibur (95)            | 103.343   | 2140   | 5362      | 2046       | 157.257   |
| Almace (99)               | 119.615   | 2114   | 5983      | 2121       | 169.299   |
| Almace (90)               | 107.344   | 1957   | 5430      | 2121       | 153.638   |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+


| DC Dynamis, capped haste | Melee DPS | WS DMG | Cycle DMG | Cycle Time | Total DPS |
+--------------------------+-----------+--------+-----------+------------+-----------+
| Excalibur (99)           | 210.614   | 1828   | 4650      | 979        | 284.987   |
| Excalibur (95)           | 209.541   | 1769   | 4469      | 979        | 273.901   |
| Almace (99)              | 224.840   | 1881   | 5007      | 1014       | 296.411   |
| Almace (90)              | 204.034   | 1744   | 4580      | 1014       | 271.146   |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+



This pattern holds true for most situations: Chant du Cygne's ODD keeps Almace's white damage so high that it will consistently outpace Excalibur's shorter cycles and harder hitting WS. From a pure damage standpoint, Excalibur is the inferior weapon. It's certainly close enough that in practice the additional effect damage will push it to be functionally equal. Also, if you can't maintain CDC's Aftermath, Excalibur will creep up and overtake it.


Is it right for you?
Excalibur is the weapon for you if you expect to be doing a lot of things as a Paladin. A stronger Requiescat, the ability to swap shields and lose TP whole still maintaining some damage, and the ability to still do damage while in less-than-ideal combat gear (such as when you are swapped into -DT to eat a spell or TP move). It's close enough to Almace (and stronger, earlier) that it's certainly the more cost-effective weapon.

Excalibur is not right for you if you're going to play Blue Mage seriously. Build an Almace instead.

[edit: Improved the sets, with thanks to Austar and others. Added the "more obtainable" level of the weapon as well.]
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 Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2013-02-13 23:19:11
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Fenrir.Jinjo said: »
Gungnir overview:

Holy ***, I laughed so hard I woke my roommate.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-13 23:30:36
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For anyone doing spreadsheet comparisons, you can manually add gear that doesn't exist.

Just click over to the gear list tab and overwrite something (name + stats) that you know you'll never use for any reason whatsoever.

This is something that is obvious to me but a lot of people seem to miss.
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-13 23:31:26
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Fenrir.Sylow said: »
For anyone doing spreadsheet comparisons, you can manually add gear that doesn't exist.

Just click over to the gear list tab and overwrite something (name + stats) that you know you'll never use for any reason whatsoever.

This is something that is obvious to me but a lot of people seem to miss.

Yeah, that's what I did.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-13 23:34:36
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That's what I figured, but I figured it could use explicit stating for someone who wanted to reproduce results.
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By Fenrir.Curty 2013-02-13 23:39:54
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Bismarck.Kelhor said: »
Fenrir.Sylow said: »
For anyone doing spreadsheet comparisons, you can manually add gear that doesn't exist.

Just click over to the gear list tab and overwrite something (name + stats) that you know you'll never use for any reason whatsoever.

This is something that is obvious to me but a lot of people seem to miss.

Yeah, that's what I did.

Just wondering Kelhor, were you assuming AM1 or AM3 for almace?
 Bismarck.Kelhor
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-13 23:42:52
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Fenrir.Curty said: »

Just wondering Kelhor, were you assuming AM1 or AM3 for almace?

AM1, I'm assuming that you're spamming it (30% ODD).
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By Phoenix.Kirana 2013-02-13 23:50:03
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Honest question: Why do you subtitle yoichinoyumi as "The Fan-Splitter"?

edit: nevermind I just looked up nasu no yoichi again >_>
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By Fenrir.Curty 2013-02-13 23:52:24
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Phoenix.Kirana said: »
Honest question: Why do you subtitle yoichinoyumi as "The Fan-Splitter"?

Yoichinoyumi (与一の弓), "Yoichi's bow", comes from a Japanese story of the Samurai, Nasu no Yoichi. He was a Lord of the Minamoto clan during the Genpei War against the Taira/Heike. During the shore battle of Yashima, the Taira placed a mystical fan atop one of their warships, and claimed it protected them from ballistic fire and could even divert the arrows back to their enemies; they made a challenge against the Minamoto to try and take it down. Yoichi mounted a horse and entered the waters. Despite the tide, the wavering of his mount, and the teetering of the fan's ship, with a single arrow he was able to shoot and split the fan. Because of the marvelousness of the shot, both sides of the confrontation cheered Yoichi's mastery of archery.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-02-13 23:52:31
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Bismarck.Kelhor said: »
Fenrir.Curty said: »

Just wondering Kelhor, were you assuming AM1 or AM3 for almace?

AM1, I'm assuming that you're spamming it (30% ODD).
What were you assuming for Excalibur?
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-14 00:02:32
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
What were you assuming for Excalibur?

Excalibur's relic weapon effect isn't actually ODD, it's 2.5, so I used 20% (13.33% trigger * 1.5 = 19.995). Probably not perfect.

/it's late, I'm well aware that could be totally wrong, mostly just wanted to get it written and let the wolves at it
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-02-14 00:04:21
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Bismarck.Kelhor said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
What were you assuming for Excalibur?

Excalibur's relic weapon effect isn't actually ODD, it's 2.5, so I used 20% (13.33% trigger * 1.5 = 19.995). Probably not perfect.

/it's late, I'm well aware that could be totally wrong
Well I meant specifically the 2.5 damage proc. Rounding up to 20 and then accounting for the fact relic ODD only works on first hits of a round, and going by your TP set with /WAR, it would be closer to 15.83% ODD.
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-14 00:06:19
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
Well I meant specifically the 2.5 damage proc. Rounding up to 20 and then accounting for the fact relic ODD only works on first hits of a round, and going by your TP set with /WAR, it would be closer to 15.83% ODD.

Derp, didn't factor in DA/TA. This skews it even more towards Almace, which is unsurprising. Thanks very much.

[edit: fixed the math in the post]
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-02-14 00:09:01
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Bismarck.Kelhor said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Well I meant specifically the 2.5 damage proc. Rounding up to 20 and then accounting for the fact relic ODD only works on first hits of a round, and going by your TP set with /WAR, it would be closer to 15.83% ODD.

Derp, didn't factor in DA. This skews it even more towards Almace, which is unsurprising. I'll fix the math in the morning. Thanks very much.
WS sets might need some tweaking too.
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-02-14 00:14:04
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
Bismarck.Kelhor said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Well I meant specifically the 2.5 damage proc. Rounding up to 20 and then accounting for the fact relic ODD only works on first hits of a round, and going by your TP set with /WAR, it would be closer to 15.83% ODD.

Derp, didn't factor in DA. This skews it even more towards Almace, which is unsurprising. I'll fix the math in the morning. Thanks very much.
WS sets might need some tweaking too.

For sure, on CDC. I've never bothered to build a CDC set (obviously) so I was mostly going by what I found in the PLD forums. I wasn't aiming at top-tier for the WS to begin with though (reasonable-high was my aim), which is why Huginn feet aren't in the CDC set (among other things).
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