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Which Relic Should I Make?: A Guide
By Lye 2013-02-13 13:38:37
As important as this thread is, we all need to agree not to humor any "WUT SHULD I MAKE" threads from here on out!
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Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4415
By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2013-02-13 13:42:17
If you think an Amano analysis would get flamed just wait until someone touches Apocalypse.
I know that heartache. You should maybe analyze it then, you're pretty peaceful when you talk about Apocalypse.
Made me want to log on and finish my last stage when I read this thread the other day.
By Quetzacoatl 2013-02-13 13:42:28
oh god, I can't wait until this is complete
SO MUCH POTENTIAL FOR AWESOME!
By Quetzacoatl 2013-02-13 13:50:18
Need an Empyrean thread, I don't know if I should commit the time to making a Redemption. no
Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2013-02-13 13:50:55
(1.) Overview
Mandau gives access to Mercy Stroke. It is D55/175 Delay and has 13.33% Triple Damage proc rate on the first swing of each round that uses it. It also has a 10 Damage/tick en-poison.
Mercy Stroke is 3.0 fTP and 60% STR. Using it with Mandau will give you a Critical Hit Rate +5% aftermath (both hands) that lasts for 20~60 seconds at 100~300TP.
Benefits: This weapon substantially boosts Attack (which dagger jobs need) and gives access to a good SA/TA WS for THF. It can be main-handed in all situations, except perhaps when you are evasion tanking something so incredibly accurate that you need to use two AGI Thokchas. There is no time when another weapon is a better for damage.
Weaknesses: This weapon has no specific weaknesses and does not create a fundamentally unique role for the job. Also, Mandau is one of the few weapons that benefits majorly from the upgrade to 99.
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
Competitors: Twashtar (BRD and THF), Almace (RDM)
Mandau is superior to Twashtar almost all of the time at level 99, and level 95 Mandau is superior to level <90 Twashtar all the time. Twashtar's major advantage is its 20 DEX, which may change your dDEX crit rate if you aren't already capped. This is a non-issue if you offhand Twashtar, though, which is ideal.
Mandau is never superior to Almace for RDM.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
You should not choose this weapon if your goal is to do epeen awesome damage and win all the parses against heavy DDs. Mandau is a very good weapon, but it does not make THF into a heavy DD. It makes good THF better than bad DDs.
You should choose this weapon if your goal is to improve your THF's damage in the situations where you use it already. Thief is primarily used for Treasure Hunter, and as a result it is used very frequently. The events where you use THF will be faster and smoother if you are using Mandau, and that should be your motivation for getting this weapon.
As far as other considerations, you need to take Mandau to 99 for it to really shine. The last +15% Mercy Stroke damage opens up new ways to use the WS.
When offhanding with 27% DA (/WAR) and 14% TA:
Mercy Stroke - 2 hits base, 1.4*(4 fTP + 0.1 Gorget + MultiAttack Rate*2) = 7.17 fTP - Gets about D+85 from 60% STR
(55+85+14)*7.17 = 1082.6
Exenterator - 5 hits base, 5 fTP + MultiAttack Rate*2 = 6.02 fTP - Gets about D+140 from 100% AGI
(55+140+14)*6.02 = 1258.2
You will likely cap fSTR in each case. Mercy Stroke has more STR (and thus Attack) than Exenterator, but Exenterator has an unverified 5% Attack boost associated with it so you can sort of call it a wash. Exenterator also will hit the round-cap if you TA twice, while Mercy Stroke will not. This is not corrected for.
So Exenterator will do <14% more damage unstacked, but you get an extra 5% crit rate for up to 60 seconds after Mercy Stroke so it might be worth using uncapped if you have high TP outside Abyssea. Note that this is just napkin math and some claim the difference is even smaller than this. Exenterator doesn't benefit from TP.
By LakshmiArtemas 2013-02-13 13:53:06
I already analyzed Mandau.
Now do Gungnir!
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Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2013-02-13 13:53:48
I think Prothescar should do Gungnir.
Quote: somethingsomething
SHOCK SPIKES, SO YOU WIN
something something
Lakshmi.Phaffi
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By Lakshmi.Phaffi 2013-02-13 13:55:52
i'll give a shot at bravura.
I might not miss the first hit of a weapon skill with the +40 accuracy #wtfmyukkosacc
no, really. i have no idea why i miss so often
8GA merits, capped skill, str/dex merits. ask anyone in the ttof recruitment thread how often i *** miss
edit: i can do aegis if you'd like.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-02-13 13:59:11
I think Prothescar should do Gungnir.
Quote: somethingsomething
SHOCK SPIKES, SO YOU WIN
something something
im on it
but not rly, dat def down done erased my angon wtf vile pitchfork
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-02-13 14:04:33
Valefor.Prothescar said: »I think Prothescar should do Gungnir.
Quote: somethingsomething
SHOCK SPIKES, SO YOU WIN
something something
im on it
but not rly, dat def down done erased my angon wtf vile pitchfork
If SE changes the added effect def- to stack with angon, wouldn't it rank up right under Ryu, and just above herja's?
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-02-13 14:08:40
"right under" ryu is reaching for the stars, it'd still be at minimum 30% inferior but that would probably make it better than herja. that's not saying a lot though
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-02-13 14:17:10
Fair enough. Right under, was more of in terms of rank, not like a smidge under in performance. I should have worded that differently. Still not a bad option though, if/when they changed the def-.
Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2013-02-13 14:19:22
No, here are the problems with Gungnir:
1) Dragoon without Ryunohige is not a competitive DD.
2) Gungnir isn't Ryunohige.
3) It follows that a DRG using Gungnir isn't a DD.
4) So Gungnir is a waste of time because it doesn't make DRG a DD worth bringing and doesn't open up any other possible roles.
Example:
* You have a 99 Gungnir, a 90 Ukonvasara for your only two jobs, WAR and DRG. Which job do you come to Provenance?
Answer: WAR
* You have a 99 Gungnir and a Hoarfrost Blade for your only two jobs, DRG and DRK. Which job do you come to Provenance:
Answer: DRK
See how it works? Gungnir is useless.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-02-13 14:30:08
and mnk can't wear gungnir, thats the biggest flaw
Lakshmi.Stepth
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By Lakshmi.Stepth 2013-02-13 14:30:53
Gjallarhorn:
(1.) Overview
(a.) Strengths: Max potency on all of your songs at 99. 15/tick on Ballad without Daurdabla and 21/tick with makes it hard for your mages to ever run out of MP, unless you suck at Legion Weaknesses: You can't wear your Ragnarok or Ukonvasara on BRD. You won't notice much of a change in most of your buffs until the horn is 99 (see d).
(b.) Your BRD life won't change other than having a few extra seconds of duration on your songs. BTW, did I mention that you're coming BRD?
{c.) You'll be using this 95.01% of the time while singing. Other than swapping between Daurdabla/Oneiros Harp/Angel Lyre, it's glued to your ranged spot for most casting.
(d.) Before level 90, the horn isn't better for song potency over most of the other +3 instruments. Exceptions being Ballad, Scherzo, and those delicious status resist songs. Then at 90 and beyond, you get all of that precious inventory space back! Once you hit 99, all of your songs will have at least +4 potency, some at +5, and you'll see the full potential of the horn.
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
(a.) Nothing competes with a 90+ horn.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
(a.) Pick a Gjallarhorn if you are serious about getting the most out of your Bard and are fine with sometimes usually forfeiting coming other jobs that you may enjoy playing more. Did I mention you get back like 10 inventory slots after you triumphantly toss those other instruments?
(b.) Making a Daurdabla goes hand-in-hand with making a Gjallarhorn. If you were serious enough to make a horn, then you better spend the extra week to make a harp. This will further seal your fate as a perma-BRD and create many headaches for you when mindless DDs run off after they get 2 songs.
(c.) Huge Dealbreaker: No afterglow. Trust me, I put 250 marrows into the trial and was really disappointed. But at least it's not Gungnir
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-13 14:33:23
i'll give a shot at bravura.
I might not miss the first hit of a weapon skill with the +40 accuracy #wtfmyukkosacc
no, really. i have no idea why i miss so often
8GA merits, capped skill, str/dex merits. ask anyone in the ttof recruitment thread how often i *** miss
edit: i can do aegis if you'd like.
Aegis would be great!
By LakshmiArtemas 2013-02-13 14:34:26
(a.) Strengths: Max potency on all of your songs at 99. 15/tick on Ballad without Daurdabla and 21/tick with makes it hard for your mages to ever run out of MP.
They will in Legion.
Also, the range on Daurb songs can make it easier to keep songs on melee when fighting mobs that will have knock backs if you're singing up close and personal (looking at you giants and Charlie).
By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-13 14:38:34
Actually, you know what? I'll do Guttler.
I have things to say about Guttler; I really think it's the most underrated relic.
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Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2013-02-13 14:39:37
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »If you think an Amano analysis would get flamed just wait until someone touches Apocalypse.
I know that heartache. You should maybe analyze it then, you're pretty peaceful when you talk about Apocalypse.
Made me want to log on and finish my last stage when I read this thread the other day.
I'll bite. I wouldn't be a drk if I weren't a bit masochistic.
Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-13 14:40:04
Guttler is cool. At least as a character.
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Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-13 14:41:43
Guttler and Apocalypse reserved.
Byrth and Steph have provided preliminary analyses for Mandau and Gjallarhorn.
If you'd like to add anything or contest anything, they're open for critique and commentary!
By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-13 14:43:18
The big thing is that even if the personal damage boost weren't on par with most other relics, the fact that you will most likely be alone in any situation in which you would actually use your BST means Guttler is a WAY bigger boost than the math would suggest.
What's more important; a 10% damage boost to a job you play in groups with 17 other people or a 10% damage boost to a job you play solo?
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Shiva.Arana
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By Shiva.Arana 2013-02-13 14:45:50
I would argue the opposite point that being the best you can be in a group setting is actually more important. Since otherwise you're pushing your weight on other people which is sad.
Also math doesn't suggest or lie about anything.
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Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-13 14:49:44
Don't beastmasters just stay away from harder NMs leaving pet onry anyway? I mean Guttler is a relic you farmed in dyna to farm more dyna and make another relic.
By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-13 14:56:36
Don't beastmasters just stay away from harder NMs leaving pet onry anyway? I mean Guttler is a relic you farmed in dyna to farm more dyna and make another relic.
Not necessarily. Snarl opens up a lot of melee opportunities that BST has the gear and WS options to take advantage of (as opposed to, say, SMN). Obviously the option exists to just sic your pet on something and let it chip the NM to death (and for that you have PDT axes) and that's certainly one way to go about it, but the BST itself is actually a stronger melee than you might suspect, and it doesn't make sense to squander that when you don't have to. If an NM in question has one non-conal AoE attack that can be stunned, why wouldn't I melee?
I mean, don't get me wrong; it's true that BST is mainly a farming class these days, and the strongest argument AGAINST Guttler is that you are spending money on a job whose best function is making money. But anybody considering buying a relic for BST probably understands what BST does, and my point is that for what BST does, Guttler is amazing.
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By Sylph.Safiyyah 2013-02-13 15:10:23
Guttler actually makes a lot of sense, if either you plan on farming several relics for yourself, or Dynamis is your main source of money. Do enough Dynamis and the damn thing will pay for itself. That's not sexy, but there it is.
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Asura.Draus
Serveur: Asura
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Posts: 327
By Asura.Draus 2013-02-13 15:14:27
So should I make a guttler?
By Lye 2013-02-13 15:20:47
So should I make a guttler?
Your sense of humor needs some work.
Dafuq Relic Shud I Maek?
Because every argument has already been made
Now with 30% less Comic Sans!
So, liek, you've burned your Beastmaster to 99 and you're ready to go fight over nightmare mobs in dreamlands Dynamis with the rest of your server. But, you don't know which relic to make? Fortunately, 50 other people made a thread before you and contrary to what you may believe, your situation is not unique.
Aegis
The creepiest relic of them all!
Stuff regarding Aegis goes here.
Amanomurakumo
Sword of the Gathering Clouds of Heaven
Amanomurakumo analysis goes here.
Annihilator
Soon to be banned by Obama
Annihilator analysis goes here.
Apocalypse
The End of the World
Apocalypse analysis goes here.
Bravura
The Virtuoso
Bravura analysis goes here.
Claustrum
The Waste of Currency
Claustrum analysis goes here.
Excalibur
The sword of King Arthur
Excalibur analysis goes here.
Gjallarhorn
The Yelling Horn
Gjallarhorn analysis goes here.
Gungnir
The Swaying One
Luvdisc analysis goes here.
Guttler
The Relic-Maker
SO YOU WANT TO MAKE A GUTTLER by Scaevola
SO YOU WANT TO MAKE A GUTTLER
Overview Guttler, like most relic weapons, is straight damage upgrade. It is BST's highest damage weapon out of realistic options (Aymur might be situationally better? Do we care? Not really!). However, since Guttler obviously represents a massive financial investment you could, at the very least, use on another relic for another job, there are some pretty broad existential questions about game priorities you need to ask yourself that we'll get to in a bit. For now, just keep in mind Guttler is your best damage option for BST.
(a.) Strengths and Weaknesses Guttler's straight damage. Like all one-hand relics, it gives a big attack boost, a choke effect (VIT down) that maybe helps you get a bit closer towards meeting its pretty-impressively-high weapon rank of 9 (at 95+), and even though Onslaught is unfortunately fairly bad even by relic WS standards (doubly unfortunate because the aftermath is actually pretty awesome as relic AMs go, but the 20 second duration for 100 TP is never going to get you to another WS on BST so you don't really get the opportunity to mix up Onslaught and Ruinator), Guttler lends itself well to spamming Ruinator, which is arguably the best WS in the game considered independently of weapon type.
(b.) Does this weapon fundamentally alter or create roles for the job? The downside (other than Ruinator eclipsing Onslaught) is that it is a weapon for BST, and while it's the best a BST can do, you're ultimately going to run into the scaling issues that give BST so much trouble on higher-end content. Guttler DOES NOT change the game for a BST. But again, you're a BST, so if you have the right attitude and are playing to your strengths you shouldn't necessarily care about that.
(c.) In what situations is the weapon used? You'll make good use of Guttler in any situation where you'll melee as BST.
(d.) How frequent do these situations arise? These situations arise quite a bit more often than people seem to think. Snarl is pretty great, and since you're likely subbing DNC or NIN for DW, in either case you have some tool to mitigate much of the AoE damage you could potentially suffer on a larger NM.
(e.) In what situations is the weapon trumped by another option and how frequently do these situations occur? In such situations, Guttler's going to come out on top every time. The most common competitors I see mentioned are DA or Fire magian axes, and Guttler is a clear upgrade from those (and has a HUGE delay advantage over the DA, I might add).
(f.) Is the weapon still functional when not fully upgraded (lv95) Since Onslaught's not very good, I personally don't think Guttler gains much from going past 95; 99, notably, does not gain a weapon rank. Obviously 99 is better, but not nearly as much as with relics whose WSes are actually "good".
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
(a.) What are the weapon's major competitors? Guttler doesn't really have any meaningful competition for BST specifically, unless we're counting mythics, and we're not because fuck you. Farsha is bad because Cloudsplitter is bad and Empyreans live or die by their WSes. The real competition is a relic for another job that would be more competitive in a group setting.
(b.) When is this weapon superior to its major competitors? ...which brings us to the central soul-searching question you need to ask yourself as a BST interested in Guttler: are the various EP-to-EM-related mulchfests I wail on as BST important enough to me personally to invest in a Guttler over something like Ragnarok or Annihilator that would help me in a large group? This is not a simple question of job loyalty, mind you; Gungnir is bad because DRG is bad, and DRG is bad because it's heavily outstripped by other jobs in everything it does. BST, OTOH, is the undisputed king of what IT does, and you would never question making, say, an Ukonvasara for a WAR that was your best option for the content to which you brought it. In fact, you could say it's even greater than that, because, say, a 10% damage increase in the solo situations that BST finds itself translates into much greater results than an equivalent output increase in a situation where you have 17 other people to fall back on.
I'm not necessarily saying you should make a Guttler. All I'm saying is that the answer to this, maybe more than any other relic, is one that only you yourself can really provide.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
(a.) When is or isn't this the weapon for you? Guttler obviously might be for you if you love the shit out of the flexibility and independence BST provides. The master is not by any means a weak partner in the relationship between master and pet, and Ruinator is quite easy to build up to genuinely impressive levels. But it IS a substantial investment, and is not going to make your BST anything other than a BST.
On the upshot, you can use it to make another relic that much quicker! It pays for itself (if you have a year to blow in Dynamis)!
Are there any other considerations? Also, not for nothing, Guttler is a 10,000 shell relic and will thus in the current economy be substantially cheaper than other options.
Kikoku
Demon Wail
Kikoku analysis goes here.
Mandau
The Headhunter
Mandau Analysis provided by Byrth
(1.) Overview
Mandau gives access to Mercy Stroke. It is D55/175 Delay and has 13.33% Triple Damage proc rate on the first swing of each round that uses it. It also has a 10 Damage/tick en-poison.
Mercy Stroke is 3.0 fTP and 60% STR. Using it with Mandau will give you a Critical Hit Rate +5% aftermath (both hands) that lasts for 20~60 seconds at 100~300TP.
Benefits: This weapon substantially boosts Attack (which dagger jobs need) and gives access to a good SA/TA WS for THF. It can be main-handed in all situations, except perhaps when you are evasion tanking something so incredibly accurate that you need to use two AGI Thokchas. There is no time when another weapon is a better for damage.
Weaknesses: This weapon has no specific weaknesses and does not create a fundamentally unique role for the job. Also, Mandau is one of the few weapons that benefits majorly from the upgrade to 99.
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
Competitors: Twashtar (BRD and THF), Almace (RDM)
Mandau is superior to Twashtar almost all of the time at level 99, and level 95 Mandau is superior to level <90 Twashtar all the time. Twashtar's major advantage is its 20 DEX, which may change your dDEX crit rate if you aren't already capped. This is a non-issue if you offhand Twashtar, though, which is ideal.
Mandau is never superior to Almace for RDM.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
You should not choose this weapon if your goal is to do epeen awesome damage and win all the parses against heavy DDs. Mandau is a very good weapon, but it does not make THF into a heavy DD. It makes good THF better than bad DDs.
You should choose this weapon if your goal is to improve your THF's damage in the situations where you use it already. Thief is primarily used for Treasure Hunter, and as a result it is used very frequently. The events where you use THF will be faster and smoother if you are using Mandau, and that should be your motivation for getting this weapon.
As far as other considerations, you need to take Mandau to 99 for it to really shine. The last +15% Mercy Stroke damage opens up new ways to use the WS.
When offhanding with 27% DA (/WAR) and 14% TA:
Mercy Stroke - 2 hits base, 1.4*(4 fTP + 0.1 Gorget + MultiAttack Rate*2) = 7.17 fTP - Gets about D+85 from 60% STR
(55+85+14)*7.17 = 1082.6
Exenterator - 5 hits base, 5 fTP + MultiAttack Rate*2 = 6.02 fTP - Gets about D+140 from 100% AGI
(55+140+14)*6.02 = 1258.2
You will likely cap fSTR in each case. Mercy Stroke has more STR (and thus Attack) than Exenterator, but Exenterator has an unverified 5% Attack boost associated with it so you can sort of call it a wash. Exenterator also will hit the round-cap if you TA twice, while Mercy Stroke will not. This is not corrected for.
So Exenterator will do <14% more damage unstacked, but you get an extra 5% crit rate for up to 60 seconds after Mercy Stroke so it might be worth using uncapped if you have high TP outside Abyssea. Note that this is just napkin math and some claim the difference is even smaller than this. Exenterator doesn't benefit from TP.
Mjöllnir
The Crusher
Mjöllnir analysis goes here.
Ragnarok
The Fate of the Divine
Ragnarok analysis goes here.
Spharai
The Spheres
Spharai analysis goes here.
Yoichinoyumi
The Fan-Splitter
Yoichinoyumi analysis goes here.[/div]
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