The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Bismarck.Altar
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By Bismarck.Altar 2013-01-14 09:48:18
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
New Item Sets

1) I really hate that phos+1 is now actually useful for war. /sigh

2) You should probably leave the old sets posted as one step below MAX
 Odin.Registry
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By Odin.Registry 2013-01-14 12:20:58
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
Updated some sets. I checked Ragna MAX and it didn't seem any addition of Ares' +1 was beating it, unless buffs are extremely low, in which case you have no business using Ragna on WAR.

With Ragnarok and 6/tic Embrava (and full buffs, of course) the Ares' set should be better than what you have posted, just take out the White Tathlum for Ravager's Orb.

When you don't have Embrava (or some form of Regain) then the 6-hit is still better.

Just to reiterate, you don't actually need Phos +1 for the Ares' set to be better than the Valk set, it's only a couple DPS. That's not to say you should settle for NQ Phos, but Valk's been trumped for WAR.


edit: Actually, with below 500 Embrava your set's winning, but with 500 Embrava the Ares' set is.

edit2 (I should really think of these things before I post...): If you keep White Tath and change Blitz to Tyrant's for the Store TP, then the Ares' set wins with below 500 Embrava.
[+]
 Leviathan.Egonn
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By Leviathan.Egonn 2013-01-14 16:06:50
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And the STP 6 DA3 is 100% needed correct? It can't be STP5/DA3 because even with magic I can't seem to make that work on paper. You did test it though and I believe you, but I've dumped about 50m (Over 500 tries) in tatters on Armadaberk and I've never gotten the DA3/STP6 whereas the TA3/8Accuracy came pretty fast on valks. I think I'll stay with the old sets if I need STP6 lol.
 Odin.Registry
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By Odin.Registry 2013-01-14 16:24:14
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Leviathan.Egonn said: »
And the STP 6 DA3 is 100% needed correct? It can't be STP5/DA3 because even with magic I can't seem to make that work on paper. You did test it though and I believe you, but I've dumped about 50m (Over 500 tries) in tatters on Armadaberk and I've never gotten the DA3/STP6 whereas the TA3/8Accuracy came pretty fast on valks. I think I'll stay with the old sets if I need STP6 lol.
You need 6 STP, yes. Even just 1 DA would still beat Valk, though (albeit by a very very small margin at 1 DA).

Also, 500 tatters is nothing.
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By SakimaAsura 2013-01-14 17:08:44
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@ Mindi
Have to disagree with some of your statements, Concerning legion there are mobs that can deal consecutive damage that would lead to a players demise not because of hp but because of the fact they failed to play defensively (hybridset)on a mob with high dmg output. I play with taru dd that have 10 mp merits and most of there deaths have come from lack of attention to the threating mob and taking dmg in tp gearsets. Now before you say i am advocating fulltime hybrid i am not but rather awareness to the mob. Many times have i been able to switch into dmg reduction before the mobs tp move goes off thus avoid being 1 shotted and have enough hp to live through a second round of damage. The fact you say your taru's are being 1 shotted in a damage reduction set leads me to think two things that they either failed to have it up in time or they should reevaluate there set.

I have already acknowledged that yes its useless in some places but what about other events or situations that arise? Last time i checked it wasn't a hard thing to have different macro palette's for the events you do. Also how is it technically -220 hp? I would think its either you have the 10 hp merits or you do not i must be missing something.
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 Phoenix.Suji
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-01-14 17:18:13
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SakimaAsura said: »
Also how is it technically -220 hp? I would think its either you have the 10 hp merits or you do not i must be missing something.
50% PDT doubles the effectiveness of each HP point. There was some confusion over whether or not Oneiros required >100 MP or >=100 MP hence why he said 220 instead of 200, but it turns out that >=100 is sufficient so the real difference is 200, not 220.
 Carbuncle.Tyleron
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By Carbuncle.Tyleron 2013-01-14 17:30:55
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Phoenix.Suji said: »
SakimaAsura said: »
Also how is it technically -220 hp? I would think its either you have the 10 hp merits or you do not i must be missing something.
50% PDT doubles the effectiveness of each HP point. There was some confusion over whether or not Oneiros required >100 MP or >=100 MP hence why he said 220 instead of 200, but it turns out that >=100 is sufficient so the real difference is 200, not 220.

Good summary. Also since various TP sets require 2 stp rings, your giving up at least the 100 hp 100% of the time for an item you may only use say 30% of the time.

Having said that though if war was not your main job and you spent significant time on a Mage job it makes sense to use it.
 Odin.Registry
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By Odin.Registry 2013-01-14 17:59:44
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Okay, got home from class and plugged everything into spreadsheets for Ragnarok sets... this is what I'm finding:

In Legion with below 500 Embrava, (with 500 embrava you can switch Tyrant's to Ambuscade) the set below is on top.



Outside of Legion with 500 Embrava, the set below with Ravager's Orb (and Ragnarok of course) is on top.



Outside of Legion with below 500 Embrava, the set below (what Ejiin has in his guide as of this post) is on top.



When you do not have Embrava, the 6-hit as described in the above set (when you click on the link) is on top.

Starting to get way too damned situational, so until I get off my *** and put Embrava toggles in my spellcast (fkjdaslkfdjsalfjalsdf) or make sure all of my SCHs have 500 Embrava (also ksjdafjdsaklfjladskf)... With below 500 Embrava, the Ares' set only loses to the Phorcys set by ~2-3 DPS, while the Phorcys set loses to the Ares' set by ~10-15 DPS when you have 500 Embrava.

If none (or most) of your SCHs don't have 500 Embrava, keep the Phorcys set. If all (or most) of them do, use the Ares' set.

(or get someone to Adloq you if they have below 500 Embrava, but in some events that just isn't practical.)

tl;dr I hope I *** something up.
 Cerberus.Fiasko
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By Cerberus.Fiasko 2013-01-14 18:11:55
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Is there a King's Justice WS set I am missing?
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By Asura.Hotsoups 2013-01-14 18:21:43
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I don't see the point in optimizing embrava sets with Ares's +1. By the time anyone gets a lot of these pieces Embrava will have already had the chop.
 Odin.Registry
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By Odin.Registry 2013-01-14 18:23:25
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Ares isn't that hard to get (I say that not being able to get anything to drop besides plans) and Huginn can easily be replaced by +2 feet.

They'll also be used in Embrava-less Ukon sets anyway, so there's no reason not to.
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By Asura.Hotsoups 2013-01-14 18:30:02
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I appreciate you running these through the spreadsheets. I guess I'm just wondering how long Embrava has left to live, versus time to complete 3/5 ares'.
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By SakimaAsura 2013-01-14 18:33:40
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Phoenix.Suji said: »
SakimaAsura said: »
Also how is it technically -220 hp? I would think its either you have the 10 hp merits or you do not i must be missing something.
50% PDT doubles the effectiveness of each HP point. There was some confusion over whether or not Oneiros required >100 MP or >=100 MP hence why he said 220 instead of 200, but it turns out that >=100 is sufficient so the real difference is 200, not 220.
Carbuncle.Tyleron said: »
Phoenix.Suji said: »
SakimaAsura said: »
Also how is it technically -220 hp? I would think its either you have the 10 hp merits or you do not i must be missing something.
50% PDT doubles the effectiveness of each HP point. There was some confusion over whether or not Oneiros required >100 MP or >=100 MP hence why he said 220 instead of 200, but it turns out that >=100 is sufficient so the real difference is 200, not 220.

Good summary. Also since various TP sets require 2 stp rings, your giving up at least the 100 hp 100% of the time for an item you may only use say 30% of the time.

Having said that though if war was not your main job and you spent significant time on a Mage job it makes sense to use it.


So it becomes 100 hp in Tp phase and "200" lost while in 50%PDT talk about situational. Are you guys even looking in the spectrum of what it would be like for your survival on any of the games current mobs if you didn't have said hp, seems like you guys are making it out to be life or death. You talk about x-hit builds requiring 2 store tp rings when latest set is shown using blitz ring and even is admitted to onieros being better in the set. Ill go with your made up 30% usage, it is still a damage boost increase for war over 100-"200" hp which you guys have seemed to set as the marker for war survival.
 Odin.Registry
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By Odin.Registry 2013-01-14 18:35:16
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Asura.Hotsoups said: »
I appreciate you running these through the spreadsheets. I guess I'm just wondering how long Embrava has left to live, versus time to complete 3/5 ares'.
Even if you're running it with 1-2 other people, it won't take you more than 3 weeks to pick up 2-3 pieces if you go almost every day.
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By Asura.Hotsoups 2013-01-14 18:35:53
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SakimaAsura said: »
Phoenix.Suji said: »
SakimaAsura said: »
Also how is it technically -220 hp? I would think its either you have the 10 hp merits or you do not i must be missing something.
50% PDT doubles the effectiveness of each HP point. There was some confusion over whether or not Oneiros required >100 MP or >=100 MP hence why he said 220 instead of 200, but it turns out that >=100 is sufficient so the real difference is 200, not 220.
Carbuncle.Tyleron said: »
Phoenix.Suji said: »
SakimaAsura said: »
Also how is it technically -220 hp? I would think its either you have the 10 hp merits or you do not i must be missing something.
50% PDT doubles the effectiveness of each HP point. There was some confusion over whether or not Oneiros required >100 MP or >=100 MP hence why he said 220 instead of 200, but it turns out that >=100 is sufficient so the real difference is 200, not 220.

Good summary. Also since various TP sets require 2 stp rings, your giving up at least the 100 hp 100% of the time for an item you may only use say 30% of the time.

Having said that though if war was not your main job and you spent significant time on a Mage job it makes sense to use it.


So it becomes 100 hp in Tp phase and "200" lost while in 50%PDT talk about situational. Are you guys even looking in the spectrum of what it would be like for your survival on any of the games current mobs if you didn't have said hp, seems like you guys are making it out to be life or death. You talk about x-hit builds requiring 2 store tp rings when latest set is shown using blitz ring and even is admitted to onieros being better in the set. Ill go with your made up 30% usage, it is still a damage boost increase for war over 100-"200" hp which you guys have seemed to set as the marker for war survival.

I agree with Sakima here, especially since new optimal builds include +8% HP.
 Odin.Registry
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By Odin.Registry 2013-01-14 18:39:17
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SakimaAsura said: »


So it becomes 100 hp in Tp phase and "200" lost while in 50%PDT talk about situational. Are you guys even looking in the spectrum of what it would be like for your survival on any of the games current mobs if you didn't have said hp, seems like you guys are making it out to be life or death. You talk about x-hit builds requiring 2 store tp rings when latest set is shown using blitz ring and even is admitted to onieros being better in the set. Ill go with your made up 30% usage, it is still a damage boost increase for war over 100-"200" hp which you guys have seemed to set as the marker for war survival.

Look at what I just posted :x....

And in Legion HP does actually matter.
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-01-14 18:43:13
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SakimaAsura said: »
So it becomes 100 hp in Tp phase and "200" lost while in 50%PDT talk about situational. Are you guys even looking in the spectrum of what it would be like for your survival on any of the games current mobs if you didn't have said hp, seems like you guys are making it out to be life or death. You talk about x-hit builds requiring 2 store tp rings when latest set is shown using blitz ring and even is admitted to onieros being better in the set. Ill go with your made up 30% usage, it is still a damage boost increase for war over 100-"200" hp which you guys have seemed to set as the marker for war survival.
I don't really understand what you're getting at here or how this is at all situational. You said yourself that you hit your PDT macros before TP moves or in dangerous moments. Everyone does when necessary (hopefully). The people with 10 HP merits will survive hits that are 200 damage greater than the ones you can survive.

Feel free to take the risk if it suits your fancy but don't try to pretend that it's situational since we are all hopefully using PDT at appropriate times.
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 Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2013-01-14 18:47:47
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Can someone explain to me why each HP is 2x and not 1.5x in PDT? I'm missing something.
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By Asura.Hotsoups 2013-01-14 18:48:02
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Odin.Registry said: »
Even if you're running it with 1-2 other people, it won't take you more than 3 weeks to pick up 2-3 pieces if you go almost every day.

If you have minions that will let you have all the plans for 3 weeks sure! My friends refuse to become my minions. =(
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-01-14 18:48:38
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Cerberus.Tikal said: »
Can someone explain to me why each HP is 2x and not 1.5x in PDT? I'm missing something.
You take half, 100/0.5 is the same as 100*2
 Odin.Registry
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By Odin.Registry 2013-01-14 18:48:41
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Because when you take damage you're taking half damage.

If it was 100 damage normally, you're now taking 50.

If it was 200 normally, you're now taking 100.

edit: Late by 3 seconds. D:
 Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2013-01-14 18:50:24
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Okay, got it, thanks.
 Ragnarok.Bigsyke
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By Ragnarok.Bigsyke 2013-01-14 18:56:52
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Looking at the max set, I don't see why Ares' gauntlets +1 aren't being used when Restraint is down. The gauntlets with the other two Ares' pieces would give at least the same DA as Phorcys. The haste would also allow you to drop blitz for Mars's or Tyrant's (tyrant's would allow you to swap the ammo piece too). Both rings would make up for the attack lost by switching from Phorcys and add an extra attack in the process (excluding the ammo).

Additionally, the hands would allow you to swap Phos for Phasmida. I personally don't see a loss in the set even without using the spreadsheet.
 Odin.Registry
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By Odin.Registry 2013-01-14 19:02:46
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I didn't think of that for some reason ^

With Restraint down that's *exactly* the same as just flipping to Phorcys with a 3/5/7/9 set bonus and slightly ahead if it's a 3/6/9/12 set bonus.

It'd be okay for those of us without Phos +1.
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By Ragnarok.Bigsyke 2013-01-14 19:09:31
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So in essence, Phos +1 is only needed for Restraint up sets.

I don't see how it is the same as swapping to Phorcys when you can gain quite a bit of acc and attack by changing.
 Odin.Registry
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By Odin.Registry 2013-01-14 19:13:05
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I may have extra buffs ticked off, but it's giving me the exact same DPS value.

edit: yea, better if your accuracy isn't capped, but it's only 1 more attack.

edit2: Just being curious here, but if you need accuracy that set would be better even with +2 hands and Restraint up (albeit only by ~2 DPS).
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By Ragnarok.Bigsyke 2013-01-14 19:17:17
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It is 1 att and 20 acc if you swap to Mars's.

If you swap to Tyrant's it is 9 att, 4 STR, and 14 Acc (tyrant's, ravager's orb, phasmida belt)
 Odin.Registry
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By Odin.Registry 2013-01-14 19:21:25
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Restraint down for the most part anyway, if you need that much accuracy you probably have songs/rolls.

but yea, Phos+1's even more of a marginal upgrade (still not saying to settle for NQ).
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By SakimaAsura 2013-01-14 19:23:56
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Phoenix.Suji said: »
I don't really understand what you're getting at here or how this is at all situational. You said yourself that you hit your PDT macros before TP moves or in dangerous moments. Everyone does when necessary (hopefully). The people with 10 HP merits will survive hits that are 200 damage greater than the ones you can survive.

Feel free to take the risk if it suits your fancy but don't try to pretend that it's situational since we are all hopefully using PDT at appropriate times.

Situational that your using 50% pdt all time, i was referring to the 200 hp value. I find myself in a 44% set for a majority of the games content that would requiring me using pdt in the first place ,wouldn't that lower the value of that 200 hp? Your argument seems to be the effectiveness of those 10 hp merits while i am bring up the question if you can survive without them. I have taken that risk for months now and i have yet to to think i needed hp merits. Can you point me in the direction of said mob that would put me in the risk your talking about?
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-01-14 19:29:55
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SakimaAsura said: »
Situational that your using 50% pdt all time, i was referring to the 200 hp value. I find myself in a 44% set for a majority of the games content that would requiring me using pdt in the first place ,wouldn't that lower the value of that 200 hp? Your argument seems to be the effectiveness of those 10 hp merits while i am bring up the question if you can survive without them. I have taken that risk for months now and i have yet to to think i needed hp merits. Can you point me in the direction of said mob that would put me in the risk your talking about?
No one said anything about using 50% PDT all the time. And the rest of your post is increasingly irrational.
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