The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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By palladin9479 2015-03-06 04:40:40
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Asura.Crevox said: »
Quote:
With capped attack and accuracy, I'm getting these sets at 1922 DPS. With the exact same buffs and mob, I get Koga SAM at 1997 DPS and Tsuru SAM somewhere around 1500 DPS. So WAR actually got a pretty large boost this update in terms of restoring it into the 2hand DD hierarchy. With WAR's SPs active, DPS becomes absolutely absurd, reaching over 4K DPS with Crit. Damage augments on Acro.

Hello,

I don't know very much about DD jobs, but a friend of mine who likes the Warrior job is in denial that Warrior could be anything close to the DPS you have stated, saying it is very weak. Do you think you could provide some insight on how you came to the numbers you provided for Warrior and Samurai?

Thank you in advance.

What weapons and WS are they using? On WAR there is a huge rift between the two few weapons and everything else. Also there are man different setups for different scenarios, so what are they fighting?
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By Asura.Crevox 2015-03-06 15:51:02
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palladin9479 said: »
Asura.Crevox said: »
Quote:
With capped attack and accuracy, I'm getting these sets at 1922 DPS. With the exact same buffs and mob, I get Koga SAM at 1997 DPS and Tsuru SAM somewhere around 1500 DPS. So WAR actually got a pretty large boost this update in terms of restoring it into the 2hand DD hierarchy. With WAR's SPs active, DPS becomes absolutely absurd, reaching over 4K DPS with Crit. Damage augments on Acro.

Hello,

I don't know very much about DD jobs, but a friend of mine who likes the Warrior job is in denial that Warrior could be anything close to the DPS you have stated, saying it is very weak. Do you think you could provide some insight on how you came to the numbers you provided for Warrior and Samurai?

Thank you in advance.

What weapons and WS are they using? On WAR there is a huge rift between the two few weapons and everything else. Also there are man different setups for different scenarios, so what are they fighting?

I don't know the specifics. They say they love the Warrior job, but refuse to play it nowadays because it is too weak, and there is no way it is as good as people in this thread say.

So, I tried to get more information on how those numbers came to be to help understand.
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By Kooljack 2015-03-06 16:23:41
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first things first crevox, you need to find out if your 'friend is using the exact same armor/weapon that this 2week old recent update brought
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By Kooljack 2015-03-06 16:27:18
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
ItemSet 333786

ItemSet 333787

With capped attack and accuracy, I'm getting these sets at 1922 DPS. With the exact same buffs and mob, I get Koga SAM at 1997 DPS and Tsuru SAM somewhere around 1500 DPS. So WAR actually got a pretty large boost this update in terms of restoring it into the 2hand DD hierarchy. With WAR's SPs active, DPS becomes absolutely absurd, reaching over 4K DPS with Crit. Damage augments on Acro.


Augments:
•Macbain: Damage+30 or more and DA+6.
•Acro Helm: Haste+3, STR/DEX+7.
•Acro body/legs/feet/hands for TP: STR/DEX+7 and STP+6.
•Acro body/legs/feet/hands for WS: STR+10 and DA+3.
•Mauler's Mantle: STR+5 and Crit. Damage +5%.

any chance you could provide some insight on how much the guide's conqueror would dps in it's low set this guide provides?
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2015-03-06 16:50:42
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Asura.Crevox said: »
I don't know the specifics. They say they love the Warrior job, but refuse to play it nowadays because it is too weak, and there is no way it is as good as people in this thread say.

So, I tried to get more information on how those numbers came to be to help understand.

It's all in my first post. Not sure what else to say. With enough buffs to cap attack/accuracy for the WAR(not very hard to do with a GEO), using that gear with those augments, WAR has that much DPS.

Kooljack said: »
any chance you could provide some insight on how much the guide's conqueror would dps in it's low set this guide provides?

Conq's around 1780 DPS using the exact same conditions I used before.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2015-03-06 17:38:15
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You are careful to note the 2H DD hierarchy and I notice that you have a Vajra. Where do you feel new-WAR places relative to a comparably geared THF?
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2015-03-06 18:48:29
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Highly depends on if your group is using multistep skillchains, because SAM and THF will utterly destroy any other job in the game if you're SCing properly due to generally low NM HP locking every other DD out of the race.

If they added -90% SC damage taken and gave monsters more than 100K HP, I think most DDs would actually be pretty well balanced at the moment. You have really high theoretical DPS for THF, but that's usually hard to pull off in practice. DRG, DRK and WAR all seem to be inching to or exceeding SAM. I'm not sure where DNC and BLU stand, but from what I gathered both are at or exceeding every 2H job, but not by a mile. If you removed SC damage from the equation, I'm fairly sure most battles would come down to who was more prepared, better geared and on the ball.

As much as I've personally enjoyed, profited from the SC adjustments, I feel it ruins the game for everyone else I'm with. To make SC strategies work you need pretty specific setups that lock every other melee out or turn them into a SC ***. I miss the era of the game where every job had its own strength in certain events and even with that strength the other DDs still had a shot to win if they were good enough.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2015-03-06 19:43:21
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If I just put PK spamming in the spreadsheet, my dancer is around 2250 DPS against Tojil with a Geomancer and White Mage as support.
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2015-03-06 20:52:20
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So Macbain WAR could potentially get close to that with good SPs, depending on how long the event/fight is.

That's how it was back when we use to farm ADL. My Conq couldn't beat Martel's Ryu on its own, it would hinge on how good my SPs were and how well I kept AM3 up between fights. I can't tell you how many times we parsed within 1% of each other back then; made an otherwise boring event really fun.
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By Kooljack 2015-03-06 22:16:14
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so ejiin, i'm realling loving your insight right now~ kudos there sir.

comparing yorcia delve of 3 sams for dd with typical geo/brd/whm for support I'm interested in knowing your surmise if possibly a war, sam, cor setup; or even war & 2 sam setup can beat 3 tsurumuru sam's?
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By Fenrir.Ramzus 2015-03-06 22:22:02
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everything in that zone takes a ***ton of damage from skillchains, i'd be very surprised if SAM loses. my light from 4th step SC does >30k consistently on all NMs (except xag'nar) with allies roll
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By Kooljack 2015-03-06 23:30:57
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for the sake of argument lets say your going with an alliance and multi step skillchains ain't a thing in that situation is it possible swapping out one sam for a war's warcry tp bonus may add to the dps, is all i was wondering
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By palladin9479 2015-03-07 04:07:12
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Kooljack said: »
so ejiin, i'm realling loving your insight right now~ kudos there sir.

comparing yorcia delve of 3 sams for dd with typical geo/brd/whm for support I'm interested in knowing your surmise if possibly a war, sam, cor setup; or even war & 2 sam setup can beat 3 tsurumuru sam's?

I frequently do Yorcia with two BLU's, but CDC SC's with itself for light and we get TP fast enough that self SCing is easy. We can steamroll the zone basically.

Quote:
I'm not sure where DNC and BLU stand, but from what I gathered both are at or exceeding every 2H job, but not by a mile.

The update to CDC and PK made them vicious and Byrth's Mythic just makes a near broken WS 30% stronger. On average for my BLU, CDC will have about 12FTP @1000TP, same with Bryth's PK. When your spamming those WS's the moment your TP hits 1000, which is every couple of seconds, it creates far more damage then a 3000TP RS. PK unfortunately doesn't SC with itself so DNC might be better off making their own SC's to close with RS while BLU would just spam CDC and do self lights.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2015-03-07 07:01:12
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
As much as I've personally enjoyed, profited from the SC adjustments, I feel it ruins the game for everyone else I'm with. To make SC strategies work you need pretty specific setups that lock every other melee out or turn them into a SC ***. I miss the era of the game where every job had its own strength in certain events and even with that strength the other DDs still had a shot to win if they were good enough.

I kind of like the new cooperative play. Certain melee job combinations don't work, but at the moment using skillchains isn't really necessary to clear any content, so you can still have a less efficient "whatever job" day if you want.

That's actually my main complaint against the skillchain damage boost (and Rudra's Storm). If used improperly, they're sort of a nominal increase in DPS. If used properly, they make the game incredibly easy. "Watch out, this monster can get a doom aur... nevermind, it's dead." Cirdas Mistmaws live for 1 skillchain. There's no real point in considering whatever mechanics SE gave them, because they're instantly dead.
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By palladin9479 2015-03-07 10:09:14
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Quote:
That's actually my main complaint against the skillchain damage boost (and Rudra's Storm). If used improperly, they're sort of a nominal increase in DPS. If used properly, they make the game incredibly easy. "Watch out, this monster can get a doom aur... nevermind, it's dead." Cirdas Mistmaws live for 1 skillchain. There's no real point in considering whatever mechanics SE gave them, because they're instantly dead.

Yeah if you can open the fight with a 3000TP RS closing a double dark then it pretty much obliterates most current content. Something we've been doing is CDC -> Sinker Drill -> Darkness -> RS -> Dead NM.

I don't think WAR can make it's own darkness with either GAXE or GSWD, UF -> UF can do light along with UF -> Upheavel and Scourge -> Resolution. To be honest SE needs to fix the 2H WS's badly, at least put them somewhere in the general vicinity of the newer 1H ones. Make UF a three hit crit WS that copies fTP and set it's fTP to 2.25 or 2.5. Similiar things need to happen to Torc and other GS / Scyth and Polearm WS's. GK is the only one I think they need to be careful with because of how SAM functions.
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2015-03-07 14:41:43
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Kooljack said: »
for the sake of argument lets say your going with an alliance and multi step skillchains ain't a thing in that situation is it possible swapping out one sam for a war's warcry tp bonus may add to the dps, is all i was wondering

If you totally ignore the damage SCs produce, then I think a WAR can easily hold their own against an equally geared/skilled SAM in Yorcia Delve.

Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
That's actually my main complaint against the skillchain damage boost (and Rudra's Storm). If used improperly, they're sort of a nominal increase in DPS. If used properly, they make the game incredibly easy.

Yeah, another aspect of this is the potency of buffs they allow us to have. Bring 2 GEO, COR and BRD and you're going to absolutely faceroll pretty much everything in the game. Reduce that down to 1 BRD, which is probably still normally what PUGs use exclusively as their buffer and content becomes exceedingly more difficult, if not impossible, to clear. I honestly can't even imagine any content being remotely "difficult" anymore with the potential power we possess now through buffs, aside from some crazy gimmicks.
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By Cerberus.Fiasko 2015-03-08 15:25:03
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ItemSet 333786

Seems like you can wear bloodrain strap and have 3 DA on any of the pieces instead, netting 6 ACC and saving millions on Duplus.
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By Lakshmi.Kyosukerob 2015-03-10 13:50:31
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Can people stop putting Yetshila +1 in their itemsets or at least provide us sets without it and optimize dps that way? NQ is fine but I wonder if it would tip the scales to prioritize something else over it (though unlikely once you hit 100 job points and reasonable DEX, or conq). I have never seen a HQ and some guy on my server has been shouting, has dozens after attempting to HQ but not succeeding, losing millions in the process. I found this out when inquiring as to whether I could throw money at him to acquire one. That aside...
Anyone play with 1h axes enough to determine their relevance now? Even for playing around with while cap farming.
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-03-10 14:02:26
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Why would someone stop putting something in a set just because you don't have it? Also for that set if you are in the #1 Unity Lugra+1 should be better than Trux.
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By Cerberus.Fiasko 2015-03-11 07:32:22
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With savage blade being what it is, I at most off hand the OaT axe. I did pick up a skirmish axe that I will augment eventually to play with.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-03-11 09:40:45
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I've seen no less than 4 Yetshila on lakshmi in the last week. When something is obtainable within reason, there's no point in exluding it from gearsets. It's not like it's some obscure assault ??? box, it's a crafted item, and there are plenty of crafters.
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By Asura.Ajirha 2015-03-11 11:18:42
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Odin.Jassik said: »
I've seen no less than 4 Yetshila on lakshmi in the last week. When something is obtainable within reason, there's no point in exluding it from gearsets. It's not like it's some obscure assault ??? box, it's a crafted item, and there are plenty of crafters.

well you are the lucky one to have seen so many yetshila +1 at aparently such a reasonable price that there's no reason not to have one.

i would also be interested to see if i should use somethign else than the NQ since i dont have the HQ.
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By Asura.Highwynn 2015-03-11 11:30:04
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
As much as I've personally enjoyed, profited from the SC adjustments, I feel it ruins the game for everyone else I'm with. To make SC strategies work you need pretty specific setups that lock every other melee out or turn them into a SC ***. I miss the era of the game where every job had its own strength in certain events and even with that strength the other DDs still had a shot to win if they were good enough.

I kind of like the new cooperative play. Certain melee job combinations don't work, but at the moment using skillchains isn't really necessary to clear any content, so you can still have a less efficient "whatever job" day if you want.

That's actually my main complaint against the skillchain damage boost (and Rudra's Storm). If used improperly, they're sort of a nominal increase in DPS. If used properly, they make the game incredibly easy. "Watch out, this monster can get a doom aur... nevermind, it's dead." Cirdas Mistmaws live for 1 skillchain. There's no real point in considering whatever mechanics SE gave them, because they're instantly dead.

I'm all for skillchains and teamwork. What i'm against is self skillchains which fosters an attitude of me me me me me. All insee are shouts for 1dd 5support delves where the 1dd is usually a SAM hat wants to show off that he can solo dd the whole zone with fudo>fudo. It'a lame. Self skillchains should do old sc damage and teamwork skillchains should do more. Why should you get craY bonus damage that amounts to 1-2x the damage of a free ws just because you can count to 2 after a ws and ws again?
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By Lakshmi.Kyosukerob 2015-03-11 18:00:21
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Asura.Failaras said: »
Why would someone stop putting something in a set just because you don't have it? Also for that set if you are in the #1 Unity Lugra+1 should be better than Trux.
NQ is fine but I've yet to see a single +1 anywhere on the server. And none have sold on ffxiah. Not even crafter to self.
Odin.Jassik said: »
I've seen no less than 4 Yetshila on lakshmi in the last week. When something is obtainable within reason, there's no point in exluding it from gearsets. It's not like it's some obscure assault ??? box, it's a crafted item, and there are plenty of crafters.
I'm talking about Yetshila +1, the HQ. This item is crafted from both delve bird mats. "Within reason" doesn't seem to apply to something that requires a mat that is already in demand for an alternate purpose.
If Ginsen in ammo and moving something else around allowed you to keep your 5hit and up DPS over NQ I'd certainly like to know about it. This is similar to Huginn gambieras in the OP's previous recommendations without any options regarding alternatives for the sets.
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-03-11 18:14:45
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Lakshmi.Kyosukerob said: »
Asura.Failaras said: »
Why would someone stop putting something in a set just because you don't have it? Also for that set if you are in the #1 Unity Lugra+1 should be better than Trux.
NQ is fine but I've yet to see a single +1 anywhere on the server. And none have sold on ffxiah. Not even crafter to self.
Odin.Jassik said: »
I've seen no less than 4 Yetshila on lakshmi in the last week. When something is obtainable within reason, there's no point in exluding it from gearsets. It's not like it's some obscure assault ??? box, it's a crafted item, and there are plenty of crafters.
I'm talking about Yetshila +1, the HQ. This item is crafted from both delve bird mats. "Within reason" doesn't seem to apply to something that requires a mat that is already in demand for an alternate purpose.
If Ginsen in ammo and moving something else around allowed you to keep your 5hit and up DPS over NQ I'd certainly like to know about it. This is similar to Huginn gambieras in the OP's previous recommendations without any options regarding alternatives for the sets.
There are plenty on my server and other servers, I still don't see why anyone would exclude it from a set that they are trying to show is the best possible set just because you can't find one.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-03-11 18:45:12
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Lakshmi.Kyosukerob said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
I've seen no less than 4 Yetshila on lakshmi in the last week. When something is obtainable within reason, there's no point in exluding it from gearsets. It's not like it's some obscure assault ??? box, it's a crafted item, and there are plenty of crafters.
I'm talking about Yetshila +1, the HQ. This item is crafted from both delve bird mats. "Within reason" doesn't seem to apply to something that requires a mat that is already in demand for an alternate purpose.

I know what it is and the mats required, they are easy to get, as is gil. And yes, it's reasonably obtainable, befriend a crafter, put together a static to farm bird, etc. There's plenty of things that are less obtainable and still included in gearsets.
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By Ragnarok.Fasaga 2015-03-11 23:21:59
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Can anyone confirm a +5 crit dmg cape? I know it's listed as possible on bg, but we've used lots of crystals and never seen above +2 and +3 from incursion.
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2015-03-11 23:57:03
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Lakshmi.Kyosukerob said: »
NQ is fine but I've yet to see a single +1 anywhere on the server. And none have sold on ffxiah. Not even crafter to self.

It has been crafted on Lakshmi a couple of times. I know a crafter who has made it and sold it to a server hopper, and someone in the LS Jassik and I are in has one as well. The aforementioned crafter just so happens to be in the same LS as us too.

The real issue isn't so much rarity of +1 as much as it's the 75-100M asking price for one. So unless you want to provide the materials several times over for a Tier 0, you're going to have to cough up some serious gil. Which to an extent might validate your point about it being in the unattainable/unreasonable. But it does belong in the quote unquote best gear set.
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2015-03-12 10:54:59
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Ragnarok.Fasaga said: »
Can anyone confirm a +5 crit dmg cape? I know it's listed as possible on bg, but we've used lots of crystals and never seen above +2 and +3 from incursion.

Looking back, there was only one report of it going up to 5. No screenshot or confirmation of actually seeing it, though.

For the sake of our wallets, I think it's safe to assume the reports of 5% and what the wikis have listed are wrong and the actual cap is 3% until someone can provide proof it goes higher.
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By palladin9479 2015-03-12 13:19:55
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Lakshmi.Kyosukerob said: »
Asura.Failaras said: »
Why would someone stop putting something in a set just because you don't have it? Also for that set if you are in the #1 Unity Lugra+1 should be better than Trux.
NQ is fine but I've yet to see a single +1 anywhere on the server. And none have sold on ffxiah. Not even crafter to self.
Odin.Jassik said: »
I've seen no less than 4 Yetshila on lakshmi in the last week. When something is obtainable within reason, there's no point in exluding it from gearsets. It's not like it's some obscure assault ??? box, it's a crafted item, and there are plenty of crafters.
I'm talking about Yetshila +1, the HQ. This item is crafted from both delve bird mats. "Within reason" doesn't seem to apply to something that requires a mat that is already in demand for an alternate purpose.
If Ginsen in ammo and moving something else around allowed you to keep your 5hit and up DPS over NQ I'd certainly like to know about it. This is similar to Huginn gambieras in the OP's previous recommendations without any options regarding alternatives for the sets.

The difference between the HQ and NQ is miniscule so you can just put the NQ there and get he same result. I also wouldn't worry about Huginn Gambieras because next update will see the WAR empy feet become 119 which will easily beat them. Because of how complex and situational this games damage is, I wouldn't always see "the best" as actually the best. Try to learn how damage is done so you can build your own sets, calculate out the store TP requirements and figure out how much acc you need for any particular event then build extra multi-attack / crit / ect.. into it. The sets here are a guideline, a general direction in which to go to figure out what you need to use when.
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