The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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By Blazed1979 2014-08-02 07:20:20
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wouldn't say they are idiots. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is if it doesn't improve my dps by a shiton I'm not going to cough up that much effort and cash into it where my current dps is already in the top percentile for the job.
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By Asura.Backstab 2014-08-02 08:14:30
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Blazed1979 said: »
wouldn't say they are idiots. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is if it doesn't improve my dps by a shiton I'm not going to cough up that much effort and cash into it where my current dps is already in the top percentile for the job.

i do about 15-20% better with conq then i do with ukon in yorica.
[+]
 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2014-08-02 08:31:53
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WAR is in a rough spot at the moment. It doesn't do enough damage to justify its relative 1D-ness, and it isn't even the best pure-damage DD. I recently decided not to make Conqueror due to this and a comparison I ran against my dancer.

Against Tojil with these buffs/debuffs:

So the theoretical party here is something like:
MNK, MNK, ???, WHM, COR, BRD

Current Situation:

If I had Conqueror with the same setup:

So it doesn't really make any sense for me to make Conqueror, because WAR isn't strong enough to outdamage the benefits that my DNC brings to, realistically, almost every party. Yeah, COR could theoretically sub DNC and provide Box Steps. I've never seen it happen. Most CORs don't even know that Light Shot works on Dia.

Edit: Backstab posted while I was writing this, but his +15-20% lines up with my +16% observed between Ukon and Conq.
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By Ragnarok.Drewbles 2014-08-02 09:32:59
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Blazed1979 said: »
wouldn't say they are idiots. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is if it doesn't improve my dps by a shiton I'm not going to cough up that much effort and cash into it where my current dps is already in the top percentile for the job.
Ya I think you missed my point... Byrth showed his work however so thank you, the reason I say murders it is because it will be ahead pretty much all the time if used right. According to spreadsheets, its going to have the 15%~ increase byrth showed aswell as with SP1 a sky rocketing 2.2k dps according to spreadsheet (with my typical buffs) that just cant be overlooked. But just like my OP, sam is the est slashing DD, DRG for piercing, and mnk for blunt. Basically right now I find things have been broken down to what jobis best used for what.
Leaving mnk and sam pretty much always valuable.
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By Asura.Ccl 2014-08-02 09:52:35
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Ragnarok.Drewbles said: »
Blazed1979 said: »
wouldn't say they are idiots. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is if it doesn't improve my dps by a shiton I'm not going to cough up that much effort and cash into it where my current dps is already in the top percentile for the job.
Ya I think you missed my point... Byrth showed his work however so thank you, the reason I say murders it is because it will be ahead pretty much all the time if used right. According to spreadsheets, its going to have the 15%~ increase byrth showed aswell as with SP1 a sky rocketing 2.2k dps according to spreadsheet (with my typical buffs) that just cant be overlooked. But just like my OP, sam is the est slashing DD, DRG for piercing, and mnk for blunt. Basically right now I find things have been broken down to what jobis best used for what.
Leaving mnk and sam pretty much always valuable.

I didn't use conq spreadsheet since 119 but that is very dissapointing, koga sam is over 2k w/o even considering SP2 :(
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2014-08-02 09:56:47
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Ragnarok WAR breaks 3k DPS with SP1/2 and the extra DNC buffs, even without putting crit damage gear on for Resolution. WAR does great damage with SPs on, but for any fight that's going to last longer than 60 seconds it drops off pretty fast.
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2014-08-02 10:13:58
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
So the theoretical party here is something like:
MNK, MNK, ???, WHM, COR, BRD


There are no real reason to put DNC in the same pt as COR IMO. It's like 2 ppl doing the job of 1. It's a good alternative when you can't find a COR though(or if your COR is a mule/naked/sub WHM)
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By Ragnarok.Drewbles 2014-08-02 10:16:21
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I said with my buffs, so comparing with your buffs isnt a good comparison. With the setups I have on my buffs with SP1, conq war (with rag war not far behind) it has highest dps in game bar none. Idk if people are skimming my comments but I will say one final time.

Sam, has highest overall dps for slashing damage, however a war will work just fine in all content in the game. Saying that "well war isn't as good don't use it", is stupid. Look, play the job you want, and I guess use w/e weapon you want to use too. As byrth mathed it, and as I have brained it, conq wins vast majority of the time. For byrth it wasn't worth making, but that isn't true for everybody. I mentioned the fact with SP1 it gets such a high dps simply bc its fun, at the stage where there are lots of players rocking 5,6, 7, etc. mythics with afterglows and everybody can easily sell clears... Whats the best is simply... meh...

Conclusion: War has a hard tie keeping up, so does drk. Fudo rapes, tp gain by sam is amazing, and mnk can hit and get hit like a truck... Is what it is, so hop on blue mage or dancer or lolpup and have a fun time.
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By Bismarck.Marmite 2014-08-02 14:08:57
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Asura.Backstab said: »
i do about 15-20% better with conq then i do with ukon in yorica.

It's 4% maximum ahead of ukon based on tojil, both with AM3 and optimum sets. Ignore this rubbish.

Obviously with lower buffs and/or not being able to maintain AM3 Ukon is ahead.
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By Phoenix.Dramatica 2014-08-02 14:35:34
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Is maintaining AM3 on ukon even realistic or worth doing? Are you not accounting for time spent maintaining? Also ignoring additional SC damage that using a mythic obviously gives, which is very severe if you're in a 1-2 DD situation.
 
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By Bismarck.Marmite 2014-08-02 15:52:17
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Phoenix.Dramatica said: »
Is maintaining AM3 on ukon even realistic or worth doing? Are you not accounting for time spent maintaining? Also ignoring additional SC damage that using a mythic obviously gives, which is very severe if you're in a 1-2 DD situation.

Yes it's worth it. Prior to the weapon skill patch war was around 50-50 white to ws dmg (give or take 10%). AM3 on ukon is as viable as it is on conq, but not as important. Generally I swap from 6 to 5 hit while rebuilding 300 tp which would be the same with conq.

You get additional skill chain damage on conq, that's news to me? If you are referring to weapon skill damage yes you get that using King's Justice, but that's only used for AM3 as ukko and upheaval are still some way ahead.
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By Phoenix.Dramatica 2014-08-02 16:28:37
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Increased WS frequency, more skillchains. Also allows for easier multi step SCs when applicable.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2014-08-02 16:32:02
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Ukko's -> SC -> Upheaval -> Ukko's -> Ukko's would be a 5-step for WAR.
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By Asura.Backstab 2014-08-02 16:46:39
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Bismarck.Marmite said: »
Asura.Backstab said: »
i do about 15-20% better with conq then i do with ukon in yorica.

It's 4% maximum ahead of ukon based on tojil, both with AM3 and optimum sets. Ignore this rubbish.

Obviously with lower buffs and/or not being able to maintain AM3 Ukon is ahead.

tbh i didnt care to spreadsheet conq vs ukon so far but byrth did it a few posts above and those results show an increase of around 15% from ukon to conq, will spreadsheet it anyway once i got time. i never really used ukon past update so those 15~% were eyeballed anyway.

your 4% seems wrong anyways, pretty sure you did something wrong.
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By Bismarck.Marmite 2014-08-02 17:08:44
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Ukko's -> SC -> Upheaval -> Ukko's -> Ukko's would be a 5-step for WAR.

Good luck with that.


Asura.Backstab said: »
Bismarck.Marmite said: »
Asura.Backstab said: »
i do about 15-20% better with conq then i do with ukon in yorica.

It's 4% maximum ahead of ukon based on tojil, both with AM3 and optimum sets. Ignore this rubbish.

Obviously with lower buffs and/or not being able to maintain AM3 Ukon is ahead.

tbh i didnt care to spreadsheet conq vs ukon so far but byrth did it a few posts above and those results show an increase of around 15% from ukon to conq, will spreadsheet it anyway once i got time. i never really used ukon past update so those 15~% were eyeballed anyway.

your 4% seems wrong anyways, pretty sure you did something wrong.

It's not wrong for the buffs I get for tojil, which is generally 1 brd buffs. As I say I haven't played war since the weapon skill update, but I don't see that changing anything seeing as the same weapon skills are used, with the exception of ukko's being used a bit more.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2014-08-02 17:19:32
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In the current state of the game, some endgame content can be cleared with a single DD (like 5NM+Boss Yorcia Skirmish). This can probably be done in several ways, but one common way is by spamming multi-step skillchains. So that's when you would use the 5-step I posted.
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By Bismarck.Marmite 2014-08-02 17:30:23
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yea not happening here unless I could sleep the sams...
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2014-08-02 17:43:45
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See, the idea is that you wouldn't bring the SAMs. That's what I meant when I said "a single DD."

Admittedly, I'm not sure WAR can actually do enough damage for it to work.
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By Blazed1979 2014-08-02 18:15:55
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In laymen's terms, what happened after voidwatch and legion? How did WAR end up falling behind SAM again?
Did they boost Fudo, or does SAM just have better access to gear now?
Or do the mobs resist critical hits like I've heard? (I don't kow if this is the case since for some reason my Victory Smites are reaching as high as 13k on some mobs in Yorcia delve)
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-02 18:23:09
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They buffed Fudo and nerfed bloodrage and ukko's crit rates. WAR needed some adjustment, but they kinda went overboard.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2014-08-02 18:32:59
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Fudo buff was after Legion and the rest was before.

Let's see...
* WS frequency increase for all jobs, but SAM has Overwhelm and good WS selection.
* Fudo buff, GA WSs are largely untouched and resolution's attack penalty is painful in current content because you generally are not capping ratio.
* Skillchain patch, and SAM benefits hugely again. Sitting on a little TP isn't a huge loss for them because their WSs scale well, while Ukko's doesn't.
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By Chyula 2014-08-02 18:52:23
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Stop crying, WAR got a buff while sam havent get ***for a long time. SAM need a buff too, But we all know SE hates sam and won't give them anything not lolenhancement like meditate. Where is sam's HP boost? when war are getting it next patch, then war getting more atk and acc boost from the new job point system while sam got crap meditate like we need the extra tiny tp.
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By Bismarck.Bongarippa 2014-08-02 18:55:18
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Chyula said: »
Stop crying, WAR got a buff while sam havent get ***for a long time. SAM need a buff too.

2 different threads I've wanted to ask what this guy's smoking but I refuse to be whooshed.
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-08-02 18:57:19
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Bismarck.Bongarippa said: »
Chyula said: »
Stop crying, WAR got a buff while sam havent get ***for a long time. SAM need a buff too.

2 different threads I've wanted to ask what this guy's smoking but I refuse to be whooshed.
He has probably got to be the dumbest and gimpest sam ever to complain like that, because SE has been pimping out samurai since day one, like Samurai is it's bottom ***.
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By Pantafernando 2014-08-02 19:06:41
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Chyula is just being chyula.

And this sarcastic sam buff joke can get old after being repeated by 464726515368485726524 times.
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By Lakshmi.Kwontess 2014-08-03 00:56:38
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Just as a quick comment Byrth, the current version of the spreadsheet (unless I have the wrong one) does NOT give the augments Berserk to Conqueror 119. If you have not corrected it in your local copy then the damage for Conqueror war is underestimated.

I'm using the August 1st edition.

If you go to cell G66 on the Data page there are two issues:
(1) It is listing all versions of Conqueror as Conqueror (level) when they are actually listed as Conqueror level in the Gear page.
(2) It does not even include a spot for the 119 version of the weapon (that I saw, but it is irrelevant since it would be listed incorrectly).

Similarly if you go to cell G190 in the Data page it lists it as Conqueror (119) not Conqueror 119. As a result it isn't giving the crit bonus (at least in my version of Excel - 14.0.7128.5000).

It is possible that you have already corrected these or just did DPS by hand, but eyeballing it your numbers seemed a little bit low to me and I would wager it is because the spreadsheet isn't augmenting Berserk. The augment is actually a huge benefit of Conqueror.

I won't weigh in on how it compares to Ukonvasara, as I don't own one. I certainly don't expect to keep up with a Koga sam, but I can say that I am quite happy with my Conqueror's performance.

Edit:

There is one more (apparent) mistake in the spreadsheet. In cell D220 on the Data sheet savagery is being computed as 50 TP bonus instead of 500 TP bonus (it should really be 700 if you wore agoge+1 when you popped it).

I haven't really ever used the spreadsheet before, so maybe I am mistaken on all of these.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-08-03 01:32:36
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If your using the DPS spreadsheets then stop. There are several problems with them when using Conq or Rag. For Conq is that it doesn't properly account for the augmented Berserk, for Rag it's that it completely ignores the 13% 2.5x damage proc.

On the data page, Cell: B and C 204 are this
Code
=IF(LEFT($Gear.$X3;7)="Bravura"; IF(ISERROR(VALUE(RIGHT($Gear.$X3;3))); 0; VALUE(RIGHT($Gear.$X3;3))); 0)


So it only checks for the presence of Bravura. If you manually put in 119 as the Relic level then you'll see Rag pop back up. It also doesn't account for what WC and BR do for your entire party. Ultimately it's Conq > Rag/Ukon > everything else. Conq is a significant upgrade from both as it changes berserk to +33.5% attack and adds +14% crit on top of the 2~3x proc with AM up. The only down side is the -33.5% defense penalty, which can be mitigated somewhat with the relic feet if needed. Conq is by far the best weapon for WAR by a very large margin.

As for the whole WAR vs SAM, that's one of those nonsense questions people ask to troll others. Your going to take your high end DD friend whether he's a super powered WAR or a super powered SAM. It's highly unlikely that he will have both a Koga and a Conq lying around with both jobs equally geared. The difference between them is negligible in terms of pure DPS, the choice will come down to specific fight mechanics (Jinpu to take down Aura on tree). And anytime you need 60s of godlike damage then WAR wins everything. 5/5 Warcry + Mighty Strikes + Brazen Rush + 200TP+ Sekka is a whole lot of pain waiting to happen.

Also the base stats on Tojil are incorrect. Putting in the exact gear sets I use along with the exact buffs and food, I get a sub 60% hit rates including Aggressor. On Tojil I have a parsed 95% hit rate (887 in melee 893 in WS without aggressor). I have a feeling that Tojil doesn't have defense / evasion as high as we have listed (or the SS's aren't counting something right). WS Average is also way off, spreadsheet gives 2724 (due to low acc on reso) yet actual parsed is ~4K outside of SP nonsense and the first 25% half damage reduction.
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By Asura.Backstab 2014-08-03 05:16:02
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spreadsheets also dont account for retaliation, which is a significant dmg increase on most mobs except those with aoe attacks.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2014-08-03 06:03:26
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I fixed all of those issues except Savagery and commented on them here before doing my comparison:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/110460-DPS-Spreadsheets?p=6177632#post6177632
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