The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Valefor.Yandaime
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-09-12 12:45:55
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DirectX said: »
Why are you comparing Monte+1 to Chango now? Why is the discussion not Chango+1 vs Rag+1 (I assume beats Monte+1??)?
As for Rag vs Mont? I honestly still have doubts in Rag because of it's Delay. Resolution is a War-Machine driven by TP and Ragnarok having less than 450 Delay is a pretty big problem for feeding that War-Machine. Rag Needs 64 STP Total to hit 5-hit (49 in Gear if SAM subbed) vs Mont which needs 51 (25 in Gear with SAM sub and the 11 that's already on the weapon)

All we can do is plug it in and see or do hand testing if/when someone gets it Augmented. But merely looking at it, I have doubts. But hey, what do I know? lol

Edit: Of course that's just saying for Regular Reso-Spam. It having Crit Damage Augments will probably make it a Jade-Plated *** for MS.
 
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 Sylph.Cherche
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By Sylph.Cherche 2018-09-12 12:51:27
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Valefor.Yandaime said: »
Thank you.

You really shouldn't be paying attention to Cherche, nobody else does. If you stop for a moment you'll figure out whats wrong with his statement.
Skillchains occur during full alliance zergs.
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By Asura.Hiraishinsenna 2018-09-12 12:53:37
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Only if those Dds are holding to and they shouldn't
 
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 Valefor.Yandaime
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-09-12 12:57:52
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DirectX said: »
The stats for augments are known, why not put them in the spreadsheet now?

No point arguing over a dead horse that is now pretty irrelevant.

Oh no, I agree. I was just defending myself from what can most accurately be described as a bully response? I've known the truth and presented findings here on the Forums months ago so I've been perfectly fine.

I'm currently working on it now. My PC came back from repair a few weeks ago so I have to go in and Refit a WAR Spreadsheet and change it's cRatio values in the formulas because no one kept any updated ones over the years, plus add gear sets and mobs and buffs.. and.. that process just is not exactly quick unless someone already has one they've been keeping updated?
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-09-12 12:59:30
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DirectX said: »
Surely some SC would go off naturally?

They really shouldn't, but inevitably, they would.

There shouldn't be 3 second gaps with a full alliance.

And reso <-> savage doesn't sc, and thats all anyone uses, so it's literally impossible to sc. [mild sarcasm]
 
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 Sylph.Cherche
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By Sylph.Cherche 2018-09-12 13:08:02
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
DirectX said: »
Surely some SC would go off naturally?

They really shouldn't, but inevitably, they would.

There shouldn't be 3 second gaps with a full alliance.

And reso <-> savage doesn't sc, and thats all anyone uses, so it's literally impossible to sc. [mild sarcasm]
I'd post a video, but Bloodlusty apparently deleted his Youtube channel.

I particularly enjoy the video because it was posted under the claim skill chains don't happen. It also featured Savael in the video as well.
 Sylph.Cherche
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By Sylph.Cherche 2018-09-12 13:11:44
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Also, more fTP values. Accounting for TP Bonus +500 on Chango and the WSDMG augment. Augment is assumed to work like every other weaponskill specific augment tied to RMEA weapons, and apply to every hit, regardless of fTP transfer.

And the new WSDMG+5 Ring and Ishvara Earring. Both of which I didn't account for earlier.

 Leviathan.Andret
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By Leviathan.Andret 2018-09-12 13:31:21
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What are the probabilities for those x-hit to occur?

I mean at 66% WSD you probably not going to have much multi-hit.

Where as Resolution is more likely going to have 70%-ish DA.

Also, shouldn't it be 5 something for Upheaval? Did I get the formula wrong?

Base Damage = Damage*fTP*(1+WSD%)
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 Valefor.Yandaime
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-09-12 13:59:42
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Leviathan.Andret said: »
What are the probabilities for those x-hit to occur?

I mean at 66% WSD you probably not going to have much multi-hit.

Where as Resolution is more likely going to have 70%-ish DA.

Also, shouldn't it be 5 something for Upheaval? Did I get the formula wrong?

Base Damage = Damage*fTP*(1+WSD%)

Should be at 30% at Master WAR (28%) and Odyssean Legs (2% Stock) in the Optimized Upheaval Setup. With 3% Quad if using Niqmaddu Ring
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-12 14:11:44
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Leviathan.Andret said: »
What are the probabilities for those x-hit to occur?

I mean at 66% WSD you probably not going to have much multi-hit.

Where as Resolution is more likely going to have 70%-ish DA.

Also, shouldn't it be 5 something for Upheaval? Did I get the formula wrong?

Base Damage = Damage*fTP*(1+WSD%)

Bingo, your not getting 50% WSD and 100% DA simultaneously, and WSD applies to the first hit of Reso the same as every other WS.

Naked master WAR has these for base stats

33% DA (18% JT, 10% Gift, 5% Merit)
3% WSD (3% Gift)
20% Crit Rate (5% Floor, 10% Gift, 5% merit)
18% Crit Damage (8% JT, 10% Gift)

It's one of the reasons Reso performs so well for WAR, innate bonus's that boost's it's damage. Without fighters I can get around 1.7 or 1.8 extra attacks per WS, though I used 1.5 as a lowball estimate. With fighters it's over 2.0 because 3% QA and 10% TA exist. We still have some while gearing for WSD due to innate with the possibility of fighters, so around 1.0 or so depending on gear sets (50% DA is +1.0 for example).
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-12 14:15:10
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Valefor.Yandaime said: »
I’ve hand tested these results myself

No you haven't, you've just used'd some WS's on an apex mob that takes bonus SC damage and then declared Chango Upheaval better because you killed it quicker. Well no ***it's an apex mob and your the only DD, SC's ~should~ do more.

I've actually tested average WS potential and verified it lines up with the math and guess what, Upheaval is short of Resolution for average damage. It's been that way for a long *** time and the gap has been slowly narrowing as SE's released newer gear. Prior to the recent REMA updates the gap still existed. Now that Chango got updated and the SU5 GAXE got it's augments, we might have new super zerg weapons / methods on our hands. Damage +10% on Upheaval is no small amount and combined with the higher DMG might push it ahead of Resolution for average damage per WS, which is the value were looking for.
 Sylph.Cherche
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By Sylph.Cherche 2018-09-12 14:32:47
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Mostly irrelevant. Base upheaval puts out only .15 fTP less than an 8 hit Resolution. With superior sc properties. On a higher base damage and (very slight)delay weapon.
 Valefor.Yandaime
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-09-12 14:43:18
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Valefor.Yandaime said: »
I’ve hand tested these results myself

No you haven't, you've just used'd some WS's on an apex mob that takes bonus SC damage and then declared Chango Upheaval better because you killed it quicker. Well no ***it's an apex mob and your the only DD, SC's ~should~ do more.

I've actually tested average WS potential and verified it lines up with the math and guess what, Upheaval is short of Resolution for average damage. It's been that way for a long *** time and the gap has been slowly narrowing as SE's released newer gear. Prior to the recent REMA updates the gap still existed.

Nope, went and killed as many Apex Bats, Jagils and Toads as possible with Berserk up, making sure to stop when Berserk was about to wear off and also making sure not to engage until the mob was already on me to prevent the DPS from 'counting down' from weapon being drawn and for several hours at that. I tested 100 kills on each target, which admittedly is a small sample size but I felt that if there was a sizable difference, the gap would be larger in 100 kills, 600 Kills Total.

Calling you out on your own validity, bring forth numbers, results, something more than blind ambitions and we'll talk. Anything other than that, I'm not engaging further.

Chango Upheaval was tied/Technically Superior to Monte +1 Resolution spam before,

Chango Augmented Upheaval will definitely be Superior now,

Augmented Ragnorak Spam is To Be Determined.

Labraunda Also To Be Determined due to Additional Attack Nature Confirmation.
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By Afania 2018-09-12 14:48:34
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Sylph.Cherche said: »
Asura.Eiryl said: »
DirectX said: »
Surely some SC would go off naturally?

They really shouldn't, but inevitably, they would.

There shouldn't be 3 second gaps with a full alliance.

And reso <-> savage doesn't sc, and thats all anyone uses, so it's literally impossible to sc. [mild sarcasm]
I'd post a video, but Bloodlusty apparently deleted his Youtube channel.

I particularly enjoy the video because it was posted under the claim skill chains don't happen. It also featured Savael in the video as well.


I posted a video with Saevel in it and SC dmg shown on scoreboard pages back, then I got blisted.

I personally don't buy this "SC never happen if you spam as fast as possible" crap.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-12 16:36:12
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Valefor.Yandaime said: »
Nope, went and killed as many Apex Bats, Jagils and Toads as possible with Berserk up, making sure to stop when Berserk was about to wear off and also making sure not to engage until the mob was already on me to prevent the DPS from 'counting down' from weapon being drawn and for several hours at that.

That ... is not how you do that.... at all..

You record average WS's not scoreboard DPS. Engaging / Disengaging shouldn't matter, only average WS since that's what we're looking for. You do about 15 WS's at 1K TP and get the average, confirm that it's working out the same as mathematically it should based on your own predictions. If it does then great, if it doesn't you can dissect the numbers to find out why it doesn't (higher or lower) and in the process discover a new way to optimize damage. Basically if you can't accurately predict your own damage then you shouldn't be theory crafting WS damage.

All you did was a slightly better version of the "eyeball" test, where you believe what you want to believe.

See if you had actually done this right, the results would of been something like this.

"Hey guys I was out messing around and I noticed my Upheavals were higher then I thought they should, ran some numbers and I'm getting them at 3~6% stronger then my Resolutions. Here is my gear, am I missing something or is this now our best spam setup".

Resolution was already proven to be our best spam WS, to displace that would require equally valid information that put it there in the first place. Not too long ago, after relic head I think, this was done and Upheaval was surprisingly close to Resolution, not quite beating it but within spiting distance. This actually spawned a discussion about random SC's because the distance was close enough that random SC's might of tilted the scale. The result was people not understanding the SC window with a minimum wait time making it such that 2+ DD's almost never SC, solo DD always SC's and just 2 DD's SC sometimes.

Valefor.Yandaime said: »
Anything other than that, I'm not engaging further.

Good we're all better for that.
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By Sockfoot 2018-09-12 17:58:30
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Valefor.Yandaime said: »
Nope, went and killed as many Apex Bats, Jagils and Toads as possible with Berserk up, making sure to stop when Berserk was about to wear off and also making sure not to engage until the mob was already on me to prevent the DPS from 'counting down' from weapon being drawn and for several hours at that.

That ... is not how you do that.... at all..

That moment when you shoot yourself in the foot... LOL.
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By Afania 2018-09-12 18:19:15
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Asura.Saevel said: »
The result was people not understanding the SC window with a minimum wait time making it such that 2+ DD's almost never SC, solo DD always SC's and just 2 DD's SC sometimes.

2+ DD almost never SC, what about 4 DDs?



It's kinda silly to argue about random SC happening between tp spam for so long when all you need to do is turn on scoreboard to verify.
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By BlaTheTaru 2018-09-12 18:22:45
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Myrrh needs to step it up.
 Sylph.Cherche
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By Sylph.Cherche 2018-09-12 20:07:47
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I do enjoy when skill chains that absolutely do not happen are the third largest dps contribution.
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 Sylph.Darkside
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By Sylph.Darkside 2018-09-13 08:52:24
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I have used scoreboard enough to know that it is fairly accurate but definitely not 100%. Randomly my mules who are not doing a damn thing will get skillchain dmg. Not to mention SB doesn't count Radiance dmg so the main part of looking at dps for you group is wrong.
Parse is a much better addon and more accurate.
Not to be a *** either but its 5th on the list not third Cherche. =P
 Sylph.Cherche
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By Sylph.Cherche 2018-09-13 09:01:45
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All the skill chain damage adds up to be the third highest damage contribution.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-09-13 09:06:34
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If you knew how to add properly, you'd see that skillchain distribution total damage accounts for more than the third highest parser on that list. This, skillchain damage accounts for the third highest spot in that parse.

Not to be a *** though
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-13 09:10:46
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Sylph.Darkside said: »
I have used scoreboard enough to know that it is fairly accurate but definitely not 100%

Scoreboard is counting DPS, we're discussing weapon skill power in a zerg which isn't the same thing. Kparse is far more useful for these sorts of things because it can produce a more detailed analysis of average damage instead of lumping everything into a WoW like value. Optimizing DPS is about doing the math, changing some values and doing it again to get some averages, then field testing those values to ensure they are within the predicted range.

Anyone using scoreboard for "look at muh damage" is doing it horribly wrong, that's just one step above eyeballing it.
 Sylph.Darkside
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By Sylph.Darkside 2018-09-13 09:14:44
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
If you knew how to add properly, you'd see that skillchain distribution total damage accounts for more than the third highest parser on that list. This, skillchain damage accounts for the third highest spot in that parse.

Not to be a *** though
Must have missed the spot where I am saying that I can pretty much guarantee its not accurate to begin with. Do me a favor run both parse and sb and compare. You'll see what I am saying. They are not going to be the same and skillchain dmg that doesnt exist shows up on SB. I promise
 Shiva.Applesmash
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By Shiva.Applesmash 2018-09-13 09:41:05
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Sylph.Darkside said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
If you knew how to add properly, you'd see that skillchain distribution total damage accounts for more than the third highest parser on that list. This, skillchain damage accounts for the third highest spot in that parse.

Not to be a *** though
Must have missed the spot where I am saying that I can pretty much guarantee its not accurate to begin with. Do me a favor run both parse and sb and compare. You'll see what I am saying. They are not going to be the same and skillchain dmg that doesnt exist shows up on SB. I promise

Except that's not the point. Stop trying to save face.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-09-13 09:43:10
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Sylph.Darkside said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
If you knew how to add properly, you'd see that skillchain distribution total damage accounts for more than the third highest parser on that list. This, skillchain damage accounts for the third highest spot in that parse.

Not to be a *** though
Must have missed the spot where I am saying that I can pretty much guarantee its not accurate to begin with. Do me a favor run both parse and sb and compare. You'll see what I am saying. They are not going to be the same and skillchain dmg that doesnt exist shows up on SB. I promise

WTF they parsing on anyway? Melee zerg fights, where this comes into play, would be stuff like schah, albumen, sarama. Most other stuff you want to do SC's on when your in a small six man team. The general rule is

1 DD = SC's happen
2 DD's = occasional SC's
3 or more DD"s = SC's almost never happen

Tanks don't count as DD's, COR's count as 3/4th's a DD and make good SC partners.

The driver for all this is the average time to WS and the minimum time on SC window. SC windows open 3s after the last WS is executed, this is on the server and not what the user see's since players are usually ~1s behind the server. A high powered buffed DD will have an average WS time in the 4s range, meaning the window will always be open before they get enough TP to WS again. Now what happens is that two high powered DD's who both have average times in the 4s range will have a 1~3s period between their WS's. Whenever it's 1~2s there won't be a SC created, whenever it's 3s there will be a SC created. Whenever you have 3 fully buffed DD's the average time between WS's becomes 1~2s and the SC window almost never has time to open. Now when people are trying to SC, that just means they are deliberately holding TP and waiting on that window to open instead of just blasting whenever possible. One guy holding TP for a second or two to make a SC usually isn't bad, though coordinating a multi-step SC would be far better in that case. Asking 2~3 other DD's to each hold their WS's for 5~6 seconds each is really bad.


To give a visual example, each = represents one second and you need three = in a row for a SC window to open.

1 DD
<Start><DD1WS>====<DD1WS>====<DD1WS>====<DD1WS>

2 DD
<Start><DD1WS>===<DD2WS>==<DD1WS>=<DD2WS>===<DD1WS>

3 DD
<Start><DD1WS>==<DD2WS><DD3WS>=<DD1WS>==<DD3WS><DD2WS>

We can see that one DD can easily chain, two DD's would step on each other some of the time but are still able to work around each other. 3 DD's on the other hand are going to step all over each other.

Again this is a result of high powered DD's have an average WS time in the 4s range resulting in them simply getting TP too fast and stepping on each others toes. If the DD's aren't buffed or aren't high powered and have a WS time in the 6s range this issue becomes invisible. It's also why I exclude tanks and DD COR's from the full DD category, their cycle times are too long though DD COR's can get close. That's why DD COR's make amazing SC partners, they get TP fast enough to be able to participate in rapid SC formation while not taking a big DPS hit from coordination.
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